[Dan Banquer]

There is a new article up on www.audioholics.com. The article addresses some of the concerns us engineering types have about truth in advertising.
 I look forward to your comments.
 http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/Audioquest.html

[JoshK]

Dan,

Not saying your views are wrong but one question I am left with with all this techno speak is what do you propose the naive listener is hearing if they do claim to hear differences in cables?

[jcoat007]

To prove it, simply take 2 pairs of the same cable - one broken in, one new, and compare in the same system.

There are many, many people that will argue about cables and how they cannot possible break-in and cable cannot make a difference and yadda, yadda, yadda.  These people will cite all kinds of evidence or lack thereof and proclaim their superiority because they use a free piece of wire that they found at the landfill to connect their equipment and it sounds better than x, y or z companies products.  

I think the above response from Audioquest is about all they needed to say.  If people will just compare with their ears and their equipment and if they find no difference, then send them back and keep the free piece of landfill wire.  I don't even care if you tell the world about how great your landfill wire is.  That's fine.  But people who want to argue about how something cannot possibly be true because the physical properties of the dialectric cannot blah, blah, blah zzzzzzzzzzzzz.  Who really cares.  

All of this type of discussion is just useless drivel that has no relevance.  Try it, listen to it, make a comparison, then write about it and tell us.  That's what I enjoy and get something out of.  

Speculation, proposition, assumption drives me crazy.  

Now, if in doing your comparison you find a 29-cent giant killer that can slay the $4,000/meter stuff that's out there, please let us know.  But the nay sayers will never hear the difference because it's all the same.  It's just wire.  Just like zeros and ones.  No difference.

[nathanm]

I am a big fan of the Audioholics website.  I love their no-bullshit approach.  Engineering vs. marketing is a source of endless entertainment to me!  Although much of the electrical theory goes over my head I still enjoy reading it.  It's fun to watch the spin doctors try and work their magic.

The question I keep coming back to is: if cables do make a positive difference, is this not like painting a house with a Q-Tip?  

Scale, relevance, and the subjective percentage of audible change these cables claim to make is what I call into question.  Are cables really the weakest link in a system?  Are people contemplating this choice over other components that make bigger differences?  Are cables the element most capable of causing different tonalities?  That's why I can't fathom the prices they charge.  What if I toed in my speakers differently (costs nothing) can a pricey cable affect the same change?

When I tested the DIOs I heard differences that were proven to be impossible as I was actually listening to the same thing twice.  So what happened there?  To me that suggests my mind was playing tricks on me.  I feel it's entirely fair to ask that the performance heard by our ears should also show up somewhere on a measurement.  The makers claim BIG audible differences but yet they are below the threshold of measurement!?  It doesn't add up to me.  What other components are used in cord manufacture besides wire and insulation?

I would applaud any company that came clean and made an ad that said, "This top of the line cable is pretty much the same as the others, we are charging more for it, it looks cooler we think and we hope you will think it sounds better than what you've got now even though we can't come up with any electrical reason why it should.  Enjoy!"   I'd have no problem with that approach at all!

[Dan Banquer]

Josh;
      The most important factors on speaker cable are DC resistance, and reactance, which is either capacitance or inductance, or both capacitance and inductance. Ideal speaker wire should have low DC resistance, and low reactance, so as not to "interfere" with the loudspeaker crossover.
  The rest Josh, is packaging and marketing.
To JCOat007:  I have switched from one interconnect cable to another and heard no difference. There is no physical evidence that wire "burns in". There is however plenty of evidence that physcology plays a very big role here.
   I will use myself as an example. My system sounds a little different just about every day. I don't attribute that to the equipment changing. I do attribute that to my mood changing. As my wife can tell you, my mood can shift quite a bit, and since my wife is never wrong, who am I to argue.
     

[Tonto Yoder]

Several years ago, Audioquest had a trial box of cables & tweaks that they allowed listeners to audition at home for several days.  Can't imagine a more honest way of letting people decide for themselves if cables made a difference.

[ABEX]

It all depends on the system and especially the speakers as to how sensitive your system will beable to decipher differences in cables and other components.Your ear sensitivity is probably the most important aspect as to the differences in wires.

There are connectors and solder that people also feel they hear diffeences in also.These last 2 are critical to some people and as far as the connectors are concerned I can see it or hear it as being a factor.Sometimes these factors can make or break a system as far as I am concerned.

The main reason that I say that is if Vocals sound to recessed and dark then it instantly alerts me that something is wrong.Be it amp or the cables are making it so.I cannot live happily with such playback.Some people sell components where all they needed to do wasa sell the cables.

JMO

[jcoat007]

I have switched from one interconnect cable to another and heard no difference. There is no physical evidence that wire "burns in". There is however plenty of evidence that psychology plays a very big role here.

That tells me absolutely nothing except that to you, one interconnect is the same as the next.  I could care less if there is physical evidence that wire "burns in".  Take a cable with 50 to 100 hours on it (some cables take longer but you don't believe that) and then do an A/B comparison.  If you hear no difference, then to you there is no difference.  So what.  For many others, there is a difference.  

I stand by my original post.  Try it and see.  If you don't hear a difference, just simply state that and stop.  

I, and most others here as well, are looking for ways to improve our systems.  We’re looking for that giant killer product or cheap tweak, or we just want to hear about other people’s experiences with various products.   I just want to throw up when someone claims that there is no "physical evidence" for some phenomenon.  You can't hear it, fine by me.  Why belittle those that can hear it.  

My system sounds a little different just about every day. I don't attribute that to the equipment changing. I do attribute that to my mood changing.

The only thing that makes my system sound different from day to day is the substance that I find in my pipe.  Better substance = better sound from my system.

[nathanm]

Umm, I don't think anyone's being "belittled" here.  

Audio gear is designed by, I assume, technical people who know an order of magnitude more about electronics than I, the humble listener do.  I would rather hear what those people have to say than trust my ears alone.  Why? Because I don't trust my own ears all the time!  I would like a 'second opinion' as it were, for what I may or may not hear.  There's too many variables at hand to point squarely at the power cord and say "gee, the insulation must be burning in!"   I thought it was called insulation because it DIDN'T conduct electricity...hmmm.  I don't always KNOW why I might hear something, and consequently I would turn to someone who might know.  I'd rather do that than put my faith in the sales literature which may or may not be giving the whole picture.

Let's say I hear what seems like the high treble rolling off.  I would ask an EE, "So why is that?" and he might say, "Well I don't think it's the cable" and I would be inclined to believe him.  He is familar with things I have not studied.  I would not hesitate to ask him what factors might be affected by certain parts or components, but on the other hand I wouldn't ask an EE for a music review! Heh!  For me to say "I think cable X sounds way better than cable Z" while the engineer says "there's no reason they should sound different" and me replying "Ahh fuck you, I can hear a difference!"  well, I think that makes me look like an ass.  And there's a difference between the engineers that are selling something and those that aren't.  If someone who has no vested interest in debunking something I don't think it makes them biased.  That would be the difference between me trusting the EE at the cable factory vs. an independent EE who couldn't care either way.

I don't think Audioholics is damning anyone for hearing differences, but rather the article is about exaggeration and misapplied electrical characterisitcs to something where it just doesn't matter much.  About cutting through whatever bullshit may be clouding the issue.  I don't think there's any ulterior motive, just a desire for some truth in the marketspeak.

[AKSA]

I concur 100% with Dan's comments about cables, psychology, and marketing........

Cheers,

Hugh

[ABEX]

Well what about design differences and Dielectrics and what not.Gage differences and Purity of the wires.

One guy stated to me that using COAX for all IC's would not matter.Well I spent $$ to find that theory was BS.I knew better ,but it was a lesson to be learned I guess.If you like Dark recessed vocals I have some IC's I'll sell you.

Some situations or wires do make a difference.

JMO

[jcoat007]

I concur 100% with Dan's comments about cables, psychology, and marketing........

Cheers,

Hugh

I absolutely agree that there are a ton of snake oil salesmen in audio.  I, for one, have never purchased a cable that did not have a return policy.  This allows me to sample the wares, make a determination for myself and then decide to return or keep the cables.  

Where I do not agree with Dan is when he says that because there is no "physical evidence" that cables burn in, then it can't be true.  What I imply from that is that if you disagree, then you must be succumbing to some psychosomatic syndrome (i.e. imagining the effect).  It's real simple.  Compare a burned-in cable with a non burned-in cable or cable "a" vs cable "b".  If there is no difference to you, fine.  To many others there is a difference.  

As far as physical evidence, science does not know all.  Scientists used to think that the Earth was square and the planets revolved around the Earth.  They also used to think that the atom was the smallest particle.  Science keeps learning because there is always more to learn.  Just because a scientist can't explain it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Umm, I don't think anyone's being "belittled" here.

What other point could there be.  Not once has Dan said that he tried a burned-in cable and a non burned-in cable or cable "a" vs cable "b" and compared the two and through his own experimentation found that there is no difference.  Nathan you do that, and I like reading your reviews because of your honesty.  You can also be pretty funny which helps.  Dan just cites an article from an obviously biased perspective (that of the cable manufacturer) and then a bunch of responses from physics professors or whoever they are that claim there can be no such phenomenon because of blah, blah, blah or that wire is wire, period.  

How about equipment burn-in?  Does your amp or pre-amp sound the same on day one as it sounds on day 30 or day 500?  I think not.  But maybe I'm just imagining it.  

I guess when it is all said and done; I just don't like theories that are used to support a pre-supposed conclusion.  I would rather have somebody say that they are trying to figure out why something sounds this way or that and then theorize why there is a difference.  But to say there is no physical evidence of something, so that automatically negates any possibility of it being true just really bugs me.

[Jay S]

As far as physical evidence, science does not know all.  Scientists used to think that the Earth was square and the planets revolved around the Earth.  They also used to think that the atom was the smallest particle.  Science keeps learning because there is always more to learn.  Just because a scientist can't explain it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

So true. Part of the limitation is absolute, in terms of what science knows.  The other part is relative, in terms of what cable designers know (just cuz you can't explain it well enough to win a Nobel Peace Prize doesn't mean it doesn't work).

This has to be balanced, as you said, with the claims of those who believe that "there's one born every minute."  

As for me, I believe!!

[nathanm]

What I imply from that is that if you disagree, then you must be succumbing to some psychosomatic syndrome (i.e. imagining the effect).  It's real simple.  Compare a burned-in cable with a non burned-in cable or cable "a" vs cable "b".  If there is no difference to you, fine.  To many others there is a difference.

It sounds like you are bothered by the fact that what you hear is not the result of what you want it to be, that being wire burn-in.  Why does it matter if it is a psychosomatic effect?  If you hear something great, but don't you want to know the most accurate reason why it might be that way?  Personally I would like for $600 power cords to NOT be the reason I like the sound of something, because it seems loony to spend that kind of money on something so small, as I'm sure most of the wives out there would agree. Heh!

I think psychology plays a big part in music.  Hell, all this stuff is reproducing music which is the most subjective thing of all!  In what other industry using electronics do they use cables that cost a hundred bucks per foot or more?  Only in audiophildom it seems.  It seems to be the only industry where they can get away with it.  Why do recording studios use 'pro-gear' and not 'hifi gear'?  I dunno, but my guess is that pro gear is made to perform sans the B.S. and not to play on someone's emotions.  Why does ethernet cable which has to pass signals with characteristics much higher than that in audio not cost a fortune?  My guess is that because hifi cables are advertised to the music listeners, many of whom may not have the background to know what's good or bad about an electrical design; they just want to get the most emotional, subjectively positive response from their favorite songs.  Consequently, they seem to get taken advantage of and vendors seem to play upon this lack of knowledge.

That's the type of thing which bugs me, not that people claim to hear things or not hear things.

What other point could there be.  Not once has Dan said that he tried a burned-in cable and a non burned-in cable or cable "a" vs cable "b" and compared the two and through his own experimentation found that there is no difference.

Well Dan, it sounds like you've been issued a challenge! Heh heh!  What say you to a big 'ol cable swap-o-rama, listening-to-the-same-song-16-times-in-a-row test?  Sounds like a hoot!

How about equipment burn-in?  Does your amp or pre-amp sound the same on day one as it sounds on day 30 or day 500?  I think not.  But maybe I'm just imagining it.

Perhaps you are, perhaps you aren't.  I myself would not be surprised if I was imagining it, like Dan's comment about mood.  There could be other factors at stake, some which may be more probable than the insulation of the wire changing its physical properties.

I guess when it is all said and done; I just don't like theories that are used to support a pre-supposed conclusion.  I would rather have somebody say that they are trying to figure out why something sounds this way or that and then theorize why there is a difference.  But to say there is no physical evidence of something, so that automatically negates any possibility of it being true just really bugs me.

I see your point.  Although I am not 100% sure of Dan's intention, if he has assumed there is NO difference and is seeking to prove it; but to me that is not the issue, but rather the marketing which preys upon the absence of the buyer's technical knowledge which I spoke of earlier.  Sorry if I put any wrong words in Dan's mouth...

[jcoat007]

My signature file is now fortified with Digital-Ready F.E.H. Technology(tm)

Now that your signature file is fortified with F.E.H. Technology, I can definitely hear the difference.  With time it will only get better.  

 

[audiojerry]

I believe we are debating several different issues at one time, and it's getting a little confusing for me.

On the issue of measurements:
We are again dealing with whether measurements in audio components are a reliable tool, and again we have a situation of EE vs Audiophile. The EE has been well trained and well versed in electrical principles and theory. His training has also taught him how to test, measure, and verify. Most audiophiles don't come from this background, and a rub occurs when audiophiles make claims relating to electrical/mechanical principles that have no underlying scientific support.

Dan B. seems to be a strong believer in measurements. I may be wrong on this, but if one's claims of hearing audible differences between cables, power cords, or amplifiers can't be measured or proven scientifically, then those audible differences only exist in one's imagination.

I've brought this up before, but it seems to me that even the best of today's tools for measuring audible differences do not approach the degree of sophistication that exists in human hearing. I believe our hearing is much more sensitive to minute subtleties, queues, and other difficult to define factors that cause a human to make value judgements on the quality of an audio signal that electronic instruments just cannot measure.

All too often, components with stellar measurements sound abysmal to the listener.  On many such occasions, the engineer will retort that in such instances, the component was not measured properly, but on the opposite side of the coin, when a component is widely accepted as sounding wonderful, but the measurements don't support it, the engineer will retort that the listener is being fooled by his brain or his expectations. Or perhaps clever marketing has tricked the listener into thinking something sounds good.          

Bottom line, I think the engineer has a great deal of trouble accepting the possibility that humans in the form of audiophiles may actually be able hear things that their equipment cannot. The engineer is predisposed by his training to not hear differences, such as in cable, if there is no existing principle to support it.

Is the engineer willing to admit that two components that can measure exactly the same can sound very different?

Conclusion: If it cannot be measured, it cannot exist.  Period.

[Dan Banquer]

Gentleman: The reason I started this post was to make people question some of the claims Audioquest has made about their cable. This appears not to have been debated. I would like to go back to the original premise and ask people to look at the claims about stranded wire versus solid core wire and the claim of distortion being higher in stranded wire. To the best of my knowledge, no one has actually found more or less distortion in speaker cable. What we have found is that if the cable is very reactive it "interferes" with the original crossover design, and if the speaker cable in question is very reactive the amplifier driving it can exhibit more distortion because it has drive a more reactive load. Distortion is not a mystery, it can readily be measured and characterized. Reactance is also not a mystery, this too can be measured and quantified.
I look forward to your comments.

[Dan Banquer]

As a manufacturer I do burn in on all the hardware I produce. This involves a number of tests which I will not go into here. The main reason any manufacturer of hardware does a burn in is to insure relliability.
I have observed that when I first turn on a unit, it usually is a bit noisey. I have also observed that the electrolytic caps in the units when they are first turned on, can take a day or two for the electrolytic to fully "form up" inside the capacitor. This is the only burn in artifact I have observed to date. I have compared recently manufactured equipment of mine versus older equipment I manufactured years ago. Once I have set the same levels, I must confess that I have not heard a difference to date. I do leave my equipment on practically all the time, I suppose that gives some of my units close to ten years of burn in. Given the above about my observations on electrolytic caps, I wonder how many of you are observing (whether you realize it or not) the same thing.

[nathanm]

Good points AJ.  I feel that yes, there are things we perceive beyond measurements.  But the measurements that are available for audio use are probably more sensitive and resolving than the ear in many cases.  No, they cannot make a judgement call of what what we like the song to sound like, but they can tell us what's going in and coming out of the chain.  

If I am expected to experience some musical epiphany from some fancy cord I would hope and expect that there be SOME kind of tangible evidence provided by the vendor justifying the crazy ass prices and not some flowery, wishy washy ad copy.  Don't the cable makers have measurement tools as well?  Or do they sit around with a hundred reels of wire and say "Hey let's try this and that!"  Isn't audio gear built with all sorts of meters and stuff nearby?  Aren't parts chosen based on their measured properties?  Or do they all just 'wing it'?

And again, I ask why aren't other industries using these exotic cables if they are so high performance?

If I want to check for noise in a test tone I'd look at an oscilloscope because I can then get a microscopic view of what the wave 'looks like'.  I can't do that as easily or quickly with my ears.  I think the tools available have more than enough resolution and bandwidth to offer a realistic picture of what we are hearing.  Not to say that they are the be all\end all, but they are pretty darn good I would say.

This isn't supposed to be a plug for the product or anything, but I recently bought Dave Moulton's "Golden Ears" ear-training CD course.  (just the first two discs) This is a really interesting tool you can try to test your hearing accuity.  It starts off with 12db boosts of specific frequency bands, first with pink noise and then with a song.  It gets more and more difficult as the tests advance with finer and finer changes being made that you have to identify.  It seems to me that audiophiles are claiming to hear something caused by worn-in power cords above and beyond the most minute and difficult to identify boosts and cuts on this CD. (like 1-3db boosts\cuts in extremely narrow bandwidths and such)  It seems crazy to me.  I would expect someone that claims to be able to hear 100 hour old vs. 1 hour old power cables to be able to ACE these tests in no time flat.  Hmmm...

[nathanm]

You're right Dan, we haven't really addressed the issue. Whoops!

I find it funny that Audioquest's response to a question about the FAQ quotes lines from the FAQ itself!  Very clever!  Hee hee!

This is typical PR canned response type stuff.  But that's the beauty of the business, you can operate right on the razor's edge between being forthright and being deceptive and you will still make people happy.  The painful thing about it is that AQ is right: they sell millions of bucks worth of cable and people are happy with it.  That begs the question, who is being harmed here?  They cannot provide solid evidence of their claims, but yet nobody buying the stuff cares one way or the other.  That's the dilema I think about nearly everyday of my life; how so many things in this world slide by half-assed. *sigh*  It's like spam, lawyers, telemarketers etc.; all so slimy, snake-like and weasely (apologies to those fine animals) just slinking by on the edge of legality\morality.  A total "grey area" as it were.  It bugs the hell out of me.  (once again, I stray from the subject...)

...I agree, the FTC should be involved in this business as it is a consumer product based on engineering truths that must not be ignored.

I can imagine that would be one hairy court battle!  Yikes!  As I said earlier, the whole rub here is that we are dealing with what appears to be a product not open to subjective judgement, but it is transmitting a highly subjective thing; music.  So I can imagine it would be quite a difficult thing to manage with consumer advocacy type efforts. Hmmm...

Anyway, let me ask this: If that stranded wire causes so much distortion does that mean I could build a fuzz pedal for my guitar with just a lot of cheap lamp cord in it?  Cool!  I will have to try that!