The grass is always greener...

maxwalrath · « **on:** 19 Jul 2005, 09:25 am »

I was sitting around listening to my stereo, including my new modded dual-mono Clari-T yesterday. Without going into detail, the sound is amazing. The jump in sound quality over the stock unit is really terrific.

Thanks to Vinnie for being very patient with my coupling cap installation, and for giving his usual terrific customer service. The Clari-T dual-mono is really something special.

For those who gave me advice earlier about what caps to use...thanks! I ended up bypassing the Auricaps with Sonicap teflons. I haven't compared it to the usual cap upgrade, but it sounds great in my room! The bass quality and impact are shockingly good with the 4.5" Super 3's.

So why can't I ever be satisfied with my system? I thought about my system...

CD player running on AC. Expensive (for me...$120 used) power cord. Bybees at the AC in.

Preamp on AC. Semi-expensive ($75 used) power cord. Seperate power supply with umbilical cord (Modwright beta....)

Two sets of interconnects, for a total of 8 connections in the signal path before I get to the speaker outs.

I got to thinking about the Sharp all in one unit. I emailed Vinnie about running that off battery power, but it would be quite complicated and expensive. I was just thinking about the whole minimalist approach that is working so well for people in the "less-is-more" camp. An all in one unit run off of battery power could take this to another level.

It's just a pipe dream, but I was caught daydreaming about a totally battery powered unit with no interconnects or powercords at all, running into some crossoverless speakers....

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 10:56 am »

Vinnie can take care of the pre (Puri-T) and is teasing us with the prospect of a AC transport to go with his battery powered Monica.

I'm cheap too, and so I appreciate saving thousands on conditioners and PCs. Vinnie can also bundle pre/power/DAC into a single box to save on interconnects, but then there are flexibility trade-offs.

Bob Brines offers a FT-1600 Mk II (floorstanding transmission line speaker using a single Fostex driver) that is more efficient and goes lower than the Super 3Rs for less (when you include stands). They're available in various kit versions to save even more. This would eliminate the need for a powered sub to make the system simplier. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Super 3s, but love my FTA-2000 (FT-1600 big brother) even more.

But don't kid yourself, digital amps, DACs, and transports are not in themselves simple, so the simpliest system would be a turntable with tube amplification. IMO this goes too far into the simplier is better direction.

Pure music lovers get by with table top radios, but audiophiles need every increasing resolution, detail, tonality, dynamics, imaging, etc. The adage "Good enough" isn't in the audiophile lexicon. Its a drug and you're addicted, like the rest of us.

-Richard- · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 03:07 pm »

Nicely put JLM...well thought out and sincere.

Do you have the website address for Bob Brines?

Warm regards -Richard-

mcgsxr · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 03:40 pm »

Much of Bob's stuff can be seen here, and I think it is his website.

http://geocities.com/rbrines1/

maxwalrath · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Jul 2005, 09:38 pm »

maybe Vinnie can figure lump his upcoming battery powered transport in the same chasis as a Reali-T....I guess that's close to what I was thinking about anyway.

It would be nice to sell all those extra power cords, IC's and Herbies footers.

JLM, I know I'll get into vinyl one day, but not in the immediate future. I don't have the time to start at the beginning of the learning curve right now, or space to put a rig.

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 04:22 pm »

MW,

Linn and NAD have both done the one-box, just add speakers audiophile sort of product. But our man Vinnie might have to build cabinets. He's already tried this route with the Sharp, but cost versus quality just wasn't there.

Mark from Canada has a cute little JVC "executive" unit that holds at least some promise. Typically the players are the weak link in these products.

At least for now the best available option for high quality with simplicity seems to be a Vinnie integrated/DAC plus separate player/transport and additional input for FM, or cable/satellite music.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 06:14 pm »

Do not want to sidetrack the conversation, but I got myself a pair of FTA-2000s from Bob Brines which use the F200A alnico with upgraded crossovers. This set up either the the Sharp all in one or a pair of Op chip 40 watt monos blows out all the speakers I have at home which are some really fullrange speakers made in Canada, as well as a pair of horn with Fostex drivers.

Dmason · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 07:25 pm »

For an all in one solution, I seriously doubt you could do better than right here, the Red Wine Reali-T, with ClariT amp + PuriT + Monica II, with some inputs, and line out, this is a little killer system, and clearly more than the sum of its parts.

FTA2000? Maybe I need to do something with these F200A's I have that serves them better than the 45L B/R, which is no slouch either.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 07:32 pm »

Doc, I thought I have heard all, but when I put my F200As on the Bob Brines' cabinet and with a help of a friend, wired the correction circuit on them, I did not expect much. Remember the midrange hump of regular paper coned fullrange sigmas? These are nothing like that. The FTA-2000s provide a bass that makes my walls slap and shake with low frequency energy and the entire band is extremely flat, never fatiguing. My friend did not have time to listen to it, but it is one of the most impressive sounds I have ever experienced on a speaker, all coming from a 8" driver on some large cabinets. If you have someone else around there with a pair, go barge for a listen, no subwoofer needed. It sound incredible, I am not hyping it.

The way I see it, it can seriously compete with multi driver speakers upwards 4-5K, of course, those speakers might give you more flatulent bass and none of the coherence of a single driver.

Amazing.

Dmason · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 07:46 pm »

Bemopti

I take your impressions seriously, however, JLM also has a pair, so this acts as a counterweight, I always thought Jeff liked his primarily because they were .....his.

Just kidding Jeff, you don't suck. (at least in my opinion.)

Seriously though, the problem for me is those tree trunk style cabinets are seriously BIG, and I don't think they would not overpower the room in my luxurious seaside pavilion

BUT, as the Teac morphs into a monster version of the ClariT, without that weird 3D sparkly thing the ClariT does so well, I keep coming back to the FTA, and know that Bob B has his shit together with the MJK math work sheets, and is about the only person who "gets it." Further, I prefer the sonic signature of the Visaton B200 to the F200, both excellent, both quite different, however, anyone who has spent some time with properly cooked B200's knows they throw open this amazing window of sound.

I am waiting for Louis' findings on an aperiodic load for the B200, as well as some other stuff. I may well pop for some "store bought" speakers to get Louis' love of fine woodcraft into my place. Omega type aperiodic B200 is what I am waiting to hear about. ... WIsh I had a digicam because the F200A I have looks very special in the box which was sprayed with BMW Anthracite gray DuPont Imron paint and looks like a work of industrial art. --VERY sweet looking machines.

JLM · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 08:31 pm »

Bemo/Dan,

Always glad to find confirmation of my opinions. Paul Bui is another Clari-T owner with a pair of FTA-2000s. Yes Bemo I agree with your impression of their worth and bass output. The link below is Bob's site. I tried them with a borrowed homebrewed chip amp, a JVC 100 wpc digital receiver, a 12 wpc push pull tube amp, SETs, and my old Rotel 100 wpc receiver, and the Clari-T was quieter, clearer, more detailed, and (within its power range) had deeper, more solid bass. Note that for various reasons I haven't used the compensation circuit since October and my in room response is down 8 dB 30 - 50 Hz.

That said, a stock Teac blew the doors off the Clari-T in the bass output, WoW!! Can't wait for Vinnie to mod it (after we move next month). This pairing reminds me of the foundational bass authority, musicality, and depth of my Fried 8 inch MLTLs from the 80s coupled with my 200 wpc Hafler. IMO the FTA-2000 (mostly the F200A) is unique in the current, affordable single driver universe (with no stinking whizzer cones). Even with my little Clari-T in a 4,000 cu. ft. room my SET friends didn't know how to react to the bass performance (try Flight of the Cosmic Hippo). Very few folks have heard TL bass and can't imagine what they're missing. When I first heard them it took months for it to sink in just what I was hearing and how correct/real it was.

Good speakers must begin with good drivers, like the F200A or the B200. Dan, your 45L BR cabinets should be darn good, but I'd put mine to yours any day. Yes, I'm a proud papa and you have a right to question my bias. Just as you feel that the Holy Grail of audio can be found in 6 wpc battery Tripath/B200 OBs, in another way (flavor) it may also be found in 30 wpc Tripath/F200A MLTLs. I've also read very good things about ICE power (NuForce) and the FTA-2000, but I can't imagine needing 100 wpc of digital power and don't need to spend more money to go back to DC.

Dmason · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 08:51 pm »

I absolutely agree that the F200A SHOULD be in something like Brines' creation. The Fostex Rx really does not do the trick, although it is a good load for B/R. My only comment was how they looked; really cool. Having said that, looks don't make for sound. In my limited purvue, I would say anyone willing to make dipole work with B200 as a foundation will be richly rewarded with sound I only ever heard on $40,000 Linkwitz creations, the Beethoven, and anyone thinking about AlNiCo Fostex should go and put them in Bob's lines. IMHO, these two designs completely slay much of what is out there. Both are total shortcuts, require relatively little capital, provide world class musical satisfation, the FTA is a powerhouse, and the DarkStar is the back door way in to Audio Artistry/Phoenix type sound for a mere pittance. I consider it my own gift to the DIY community.

When you hook up the optimized TA2050 Vinnie modded Teac, THEN the F200A makes real sense. The Red Wine Teac bears little sonic resemblance to the stock job, so if you follow this path, sonic riches await. That combo just amazes me every time.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 08:52 pm »

I have ran these speakers with the following

DNA-225 (200watts) overkill, but of a good type.

the Sharp EX-SD 111, 20 watts, jumpy!

presently have them powered with

40 watt highly modded Op chip monoblocks. Man, it is fast.

I will try my 10 watts of Op chip battery power and see how it sounds.

For far, it is a killah. No if and but. I do not know, it must the cabinets, but man, do these things impose their visible presence. Like Darth Vader of speakers, visible, powerful, evil that it can kick the but of every other speaker I have heard so far.

Open baffle is just a different type of sound, I am sure it is open but I am scared of the lack of bass.

Paul Keum

Dmason · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 09:14 pm »

Lack of bass??? Rather presumptuous of you. Jiffyboob's set up does dangerously real bass, and that guy is into bass. That is what he loves about them: their ability to "frame" the sound of the other-worldly B200. 4X12 bass speakers done right is what he has, and they certainly deliver the goods.

Perhaps Dr. 'Boob can comment on bass in his new DarkStars.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 09:20 pm »

Doc, are you talking about the B200 with some helper 12" drivers, as I see in the 4X12"? I remember that you made a Darkstar that was powered. If that is the case, one cannot compare a fullrange speaker design that just uses one pair of 8" fullrange drivers vs a pair of OB with a pair of B200s and 4 12" woofers!

The FTAs do not have helper subwoofers or woofer in the design. They are insane in the bass levels with simply in power and out bass.

10 watts battery power is not sufficient, as I found out. Minimum, a good 20 watts of PP for these babies to become one heck of a bass machine.

Paul Keum

Dmason · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 09:37 pm »

I will concede that point, but as a tweaking audiofool and experienced speakgeek I always view things as a system, as A driver doth not a system make, having designed, built dozens. I would also add that as much as I would like to ignore it, where applicable, crossover configuration is more important than driver selection by several orders of magnitude.

The investment in drivers for a full range DarkStar rig, for those reading and interested in future decisions, is about the same as a pair of Fostex 200A's, and both decisions are good ones, you simply cannot go wrong.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 10:53 pm »

I am trying to get Vinnie Rossi to bring this OB B200s to the up and coming Audio Rave this Saturday. I am really curious about these drivers. I heard he was making something with them. Let's see.

Paul

Dmason · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 11:21 pm »

I believe Louis O'Mega has Vinnie's B200's and that they will indeed be coming to your thing this weekend. So hopefully you will be able to hear BOTH alignments, aperiodic and open baffle, AND the hemp cone floor stander. I wish I could be there, but I'll be sipping mint julips in San Miguel.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Jul 2005, 11:49 pm »

Nah, Vinnie gave Louis the B200s which are now mounted in boxes. Louis is simply bringing some hemps. Shucks, no good. Wish I could hear some OB with the B200s.

JLM · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Jul 2005, 12:20 am »

Bemo,

My experience with a 12 wpc push pull was mixed. Bass was certainly there, but not well controlled as evidenced by uncontrolled oscillation of 30 - 50 Hz warbles at only 80 dB.

My experience with a 30 wpc push pull Cary SuperAmp similar, lots of poorly controlled, muddy bass.

Five minutes with the Teac showed it slaying either of the above tube amps.

Don't underestimate the mighty F200A. IMO the cabinet does as much "polishing" of the sound (clearing up the midrange backwave) as anything else (another little known advantage of TLs). Smoothing mid/bass response and of course extending bass response to lower frequencies are of course the commonly known TL attributes.

A friend has 7 driver OBs (12 inch EV coaxial, piezo tweeter, two 10 inch woofers, and two 12 inch woofers in 30 inch square baffle). The four woofers are bi-amped. The entire system is built on garage sale and swapped pieces, but the sound is not to be underestimated. OB is my second favorite speaker type, a very different flavor with the biggest issue for me is the EQ, extra bass drivers/sub, crossovers, and amps that take it so far away from the simple approach of the FTA-2000. If not for the existence of the F200A, I might of gone B200/OB as I knew of Nigel's (Barfind) setup before Dan's postings.