[John Casler]

I thought there was a thread on this, but after looking around I couldn't find, it so I wanted to start a new one.

As most who read the VMPS circle know, I recently added a pair of RM30s to my system.

One of the design features of this speaker that is shared with the RM/x is the "SIDE FIRING" woofer.

There has been very little discussion about which way these 10" MegaWoofers should "fire".

I think most might intuitively fire them facing out. (many times into a sidewall)

While I haven't fully explored the "facing out" option, I have been getting very good results "firing in"

Did some quick SPL readings the other day (without my subs) and was getting some "VERY" meaningful response at both 25Hz and 20Hz with this set up.

That response was/is also at the listening position, since that is the only place I measure.

Now this doesn't mean that "your" room will be the same.  I run my system on the "LONG WALL" which means I don't have any sidewall to direct bass through the room.

So the message here is, that if you have the RM30's (or RM/x) don't be afraid to set the woofs to "fire in" to see how it loads your room.

This can also apply to your SubWoofers.  Many years ago my first pair of subs were the Dahlquist subs, built for the DQ-10's, and I had a stereo pair.

Jon Dahlquist suggested I set them in the front corners, and fire them inward.  Although I tried many other orientations, that one seemed to work the best, for deep bass at the sweet seat.

So try alternative orientations in your room and listen.  Usually one will present itself as the best.

[ekovalsky]

John,

I tried the RM/X both ways.  Like you said results will be very room dependent.  As you did, I only measured (via TacT) at the listening position.

Response in the second octave (32-64hz) was better with the side woofers facing inwards.  But there was unbelievable suckout around the bass-planar crossover frequency that was impossible to fix even with a TacT.

With the woofers facing outwards output in the second octave wasn't as strong but the huge suckout around 200-300hz pretty much went away, at least to the point where the TacT could fix it.

I never got any usable bottom octave response (16-32hz) no matter where or how the woofers were oriented.  Big B blamed my room for this, and mycurrent space is definitely not very bass friendly.  While my current system has lots of first octave output -- audible and palpable -- it is not fair to compare it with the RM/X.

[John Casler]

John,

I tried the RM/X both ways.  Like you said results will be very room dependent.  As you did, I only measured (via TacT) at the listening position.

Response in the second octave (32-64hz) was better with the side woofers facing inwards.  But there was unbelievable suckout around the bass-planar crossover frequency that was impossible to fix even with a TacT.

With the woofers facing outwards output in the second octave wasn't as strong but the huge suckout around 200-300hz pretty much went away ...

Interesting that the Low Bass woofer firing angle had a "filtering" effect on the 200-300Hz range.  You would think that at frequencies that low (below 200Hz), that shouldn't happen to that degree.

Obviously you used the same convergence angles and positioning.

Sounds like your bass towers "load" the room much better and that even though they are not in the same (presumably) "acoustic plane", the TACT can adjust Phase to make it work better.

I just spent the last 45 minutes "re-positioning" (as in "fine tuning") the front LARGERs to align their "acoustic centers" in an arc equidistant the listening position and simply that has improved the LOW BASS definition to a nice degree.

[ekovalsky]

Interesting that the Low Bass woofer firing angle had a "filtering" effect on the 200-300Hz range.  You would think that at frequencies that low (below 200Hz), that shouldn't happen to that degree.

Obviously you used the same convergence angles and positioning.  

Sounds like your bass towers "load" the room much better and that even though they are not in the same (presumably) "acoustic plane", the TACT can adjust Phase to make it work better.

I just spent the last 45 minutes "re-positioning" (as in  ...

The RM series woofers play very high because of the 1st order crossover -- significant output up to 500-600hz.  The TacT measures one channel at a time, so the problem was not interference between the outputs of the two speakers.

In the first octave, the TacT measures about 30dB higher output with the Alons than with the VPMS.  I guess you can say they load the room better  

The RM40 and RM/X woofers bounced like crazy when playing high level test tones at 20hz - 30hz but there wasn't much to be heard or felt in the room.  Same played through the Alons shakes the foundation slab of my entire house with "cycle counting" pitch definition and a visceral sensation that can literally take your breath away. And this is was with the TacT amp which isn't really up to task driving a 2 ohm load with poor damping factor.  Things got even better with the Crown K2 taking its place.

I would expect the GR woofer towers and the Selah Citrine subs to perform basically as well as the Alon towers at a much more accessible price.

[ctviggen]

I think more drivers is almost always better when it comes to bass.  After all, dB is really sound pressure level, and you can't get high SPL in low frequencies without moving tons of air.

[ScottMayo]

I would expect the GR woofer towers and the Selah Citrine subs to perform basically as well as the Alon towers at a much more accessible price.

The Citrine starts to run out of gas at 25Hz, and is -10db down by 19Hz. Granted there's not much music down there, but why do you think that design would fill a room better than any other offering?

[John Casler]

Hi Scott,

I requested to ekovalsky that if he has comments on the performance or virtues of "direct competitiors" from the same forum, (AC) that they be made in more appropriate Circles like the ones for those manufacturers.

I feel this might offer a better situation than creating contentious, competitive, promotional, and or crtitcal discussion, here, which could easily go in the wrong direction.

While we all respect our competitors, comments regarding them or their products, could easily be misundertood.

This practice might be more acceptable for non-AudioCircle products and manufacturers.

Hope that makes sense.

[Florian]

Hey John, i understand what you mean about competitors. But seriously, the Alon Grand is a system costing over 100K !!! Thats more than 10 times as much as the RM/X. I dont think Alon and VMPS are competitors. If he bought some B&W800D, Dynaudio, GR Research etc.. i would understand it.

-Flo

PS: I love my VMPS, and i currently have a RM30 and 626 here. I sold a third RM30 to my customer and he is also very happy with the sound.

[ekovalsky]

Nola Grand Reference II is $126,000 per pair MSRP. If you pay full retail price for expensive high end speakers, I have a nice bridge to sell to you.

Of course, if you make the assumption that the original owner lost $90,000 by selling them, and I've already taken a $10,000 loss beyond that... they're only worth $26,000.  Which means I can sell them and use the coin for some Super Tower IIIs, new direct from the factory with all the tricks  

Naaaahhhhh....  

[CornellAlum]

Am I the only one on here that is sick and tired of hearing about Eric's speakers.  Jeesh, this is the VMPS forum, and while I congratulate him on his purchase, I will probably never own his speakers, much less hear them, so please, if you could, post about your speakers in another forum, it's getting ridiculous.

[ScottMayo]

Am I the only one on here that is sick and tired of hearing about Eric's speakers.  Jeesh, this is the VMPS forum, and while I congratulate him on his purchase, I will probably never own his speakers, much less hear them, so please, if you could, post about your speakers in another forum, it's getting ridiculous.

I just found this great "stop watching this topic" option at the bottom of the web page. And now, I think, I'm going to click it.  

[zybar]

Am I the only one on here that is sick and tired of hearing about Eric's speakers.  Jeesh, this is the VMPS forum, and while I congratulate him on his purchase, I will probably never own his speakers, much less hear them, so please, if you could, post about your speakers in another forum, it's getting ridiculous.

Since Eric has owned multiple VMPS speakers I think he is quite qualified to discuss their virtues and flaws in this forum.

Just because he doesn't always have gushing things to say about the VMPS products doesn't mean he isn't right or his points shouldn't be heard.

George

[Florian]

Am I the only one on here that is sick and tired of hearing about Eric's speakers.  Jeesh, this is the VMPS forum, and while I congratulate him on his purchase, I will probably never own his speakers, much less hear them, so please, if you could, post about your speakers in another forum, it's getting ridiculous.

Since Eric has owned multiple VMPS speakers I think he is quite qualified to discuss their virtues and flaws in this forum.

Just because he doesn't always have gu ...

I agree with Zybar here. He owned the RM/X last, which is pretty much the best VMPS there is. (dont know anyone who ownes the ST)....

-Flo

[John Casler]

Hey John, i understand what you mean about competitors. But seriously, the Alon Grand is a system costing over 100K !!! Thats more than 10 times as much as the RM/X. I dont think Alon and VMPS are competitors. If he bought some B&W800D, Dynaudio, GR Research etc.. i would understand it.

-Flo

PS: I love my VMPS, and i currently have a RM30 and 626 here. I sold a third RM30 to my customer and he is also very happy with the sound.

Please re-read what I said.  My request was limited to "other" AudioCircle manufacturers.

The proximity of our community (AC) makes promoting, or criticizing products of another circle a bad idea.

I think we have rather open, and spirited discussion about the "perceived" flaws and virtues of VMPS without too much problem.

[Florian]

Please re-read what I said.  My request was limited to "other" AudioCircle manufacturers.

The proximity of our community (AC) makes promoting, or criticizing products of another circle a bad idea.

I think we have rather spirited discussion about the "perceived" flaws and virtues of VMPS without too much problem.

I didnt know Alon was part of the AudioCircle.  I know that this circle is for VMPS and we should be discussing VMPS products primarily. But i dont see the hurt in Eric talking about his Alons.

-Flo

[CornellAlum]

Alon isn't part of the circle, so I think John is saying that part is cool.  I believe he was refrencing the comment about grresearch, etc.

I will leave this alone now, but I still don't see why we need to compare apples to oranges and vice versa when it comes across as criticism instead of insight.

[Florian]

Well maybe i missunderstood it then. I thought John was reffering to the Alons. Did i understand it wrong?

[John Casler]

Well maybe i missunderstood it then. I thought John was reffering to the Alons. Did i understand it wrong?

Yes, my request was "to not" begin a dialogue about Selah and GR, (both respected AC memebers) here since any comments made could lead to a non-productive discourse.

You know this Thread was started to discuss placement/position options and performance perceptions of the side firing woofs of the RM30 and RM/x.

Maybe to get back on topic, Florian, which orientation do you use with yours, and have you tried both?

[Florian]

Yes i have tried both and found it to be room dependant. In my listening room i cannot have much space to the sidewalls, and prefer the orientation to the inside. Upstairs in the larger room i have enough space to the sides and prefer it on the outside.

-Flo