Speaker position - an interesting story

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Terry

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Speaker position - an interesting story
« on: 18 Jun 2005, 03:08 pm »
I have had my DeCapo-i for a little over two years. For most of this period, I have been listening in the near field, with the speakers 7' apart and with my listening chair at the apex of the triangle. This is essentially the Cardas method of speaker placement (the Golden ratio). This has presented a good soundstage, the midrange and bass are excellent, but I have always found the sound just a little too intense (on certain recordings). Moving my chair back improves this somewhat but other aspects (tonal balance, sound stage) suffer. I have also tried the Audio Physics method but with limited success.
A couple of weeks ago I thought I would try the Wilson Audio Speaker Placement (WASP) method. Although I did not have high expectations, my room is a little difficult and the WASP method does take room acoustics directly into account (i.e. it is not based on a mathematical formula like Cardas and Audio Physics). Anyway, I am completely stunned by the improvement in the sound of my system with this set -up. The speakers are now over 8' apart and much closer to the side walls (about 29"). They are also facing so that they cross just behind my listening chair - thats right, they are radically toed-in. I am now sitting about 10' back. Everything has improved - bass, tonal balance, soundstage etc. and, as an added benefit, 4 people can sit side-by-side and obtain an excellent image and soundstage.
If you have not tried the WASP method with the DeCapos, please do yourself a favour and try it out. In my room, it has been a revelation.

Cheers,

Terry

catholic taste

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Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #1 on: 18 Jun 2005, 04:09 pm »
An AV specialist buddy, who just completed a course on placement, said that one-inch makes a difference! We spend too much time on the wrong things. Thanks for the great idea.

Terry

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Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #2 on: 18 Jun 2005, 05:57 pm »
Amen to that! This has just reinforced for me something that I have known for a long time; namely, room acoustics and the speaker/room interaction swamp everything else. It does not matter how much $ you spend on your equipment, if you get this wrong you are just wasting your hard earned cash.

Jonathan

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #3 on: 21 Jun 2005, 11:37 pm »
Quote
f you have not tried the WASP method with the DeCapos, please do yourself a favour and try it out. In my room, it has been a revelation.


Congrat's on making an improvement to your listening room. I, too, have been using the Cardas arrangement in a 13 x 13' room.

Even though it sounds darned good, I'm curious to try the Wilson method. Can you tell me where I would find it described? Thanks,

Jon

Terry

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Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #4 on: 23 Jun 2005, 01:21 pm »
Hi Jonathan,

You can find it on the TNT website, at the following link: http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html.

Incidentally, it is the Wilson Audio Setup Procedure (WASP).

If you do try it, please let us know if it worked for you.

Terry

csero

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #5 on: 23 Jun 2005, 02:18 pm »
Quote from: catholic taste
An AV specialist buddy, who just completed a course on placement, said that one-inch makes a difference! We spend too much time on the wrong things. Thanks for the great idea.


If one inch in speaker positioning makes a difference then how big difference makes one inch in the head position? :shake:

Jonathan

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #6 on: 23 Jun 2005, 03:18 pm »
Quote from: Terry
Hi Jonathan,

You can find it on the TNT website, at the following link: http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html.

Incidentally, it is the Wilson Audio Setup Procedure (WASP).

If you do try it, please let us know if it worked for you.

Terry


Thanks much. I'll definitely keep you posted on the results.

Jon

PhilNYC

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #7 on: 23 Jun 2005, 03:34 pm »
fwiw, I had set up my room through a lot of trial and error over a few months time (I hadn't read the Wilson method before a few weeks ago)...turns out, that asides from being forced to put my listening seat against the back wall, my final placement is pretty much right on spec with WASP...

catholic taste

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Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #8 on: 4 Jul 2005, 02:15 pm »
Csero:
If one inch in speaker positioning makes a difference then how big difference makes one inch in the head position?

I spoke to Paul Barton (PSB) on this issue, and he said that when testing speakers they had to make a dummy head with recessed microphones in the pseudo-ears. He said that speaker position made the greatest blind-test change. Cables and break-in, make such a small difference they could not even be measured.

csero

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #9 on: 4 Jul 2005, 04:46 pm »
Quote from: catholic taste
Csero:
If one inch in speaker positioning makes a difference then how big difference makes one inch in the head position?

I spoke to Paul Barton (PSB) on this issue, and he said that when testing speakers they had to make a dummy head with recessed microphones in the pseudo-ears. He said that speaker position made the greatest blind-test change. Cables and break-in, make such a small difference they could not even be measured.


I was not really asking, because I know the answer. :)

On the other side, If he use a dummy head with recessed mic and pseudo ears, he includes a generic HRTF in the measurements, whic is very bad IMHO. He corrects for the torso/head/pinna filtering twice this way. In a correct recording/reproduction chain there should be one and only one torso/head/pinna filtering set, and it better be the listener's.

orthobiz

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #10 on: 4 Jul 2005, 09:16 pm »
The WASP link is not working:
"Oooops! Pagina non trovata!" message at the TNT site.

biz

BobM

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #11 on: 4 Jul 2005, 10:03 pm »
I tried the WASP method after I read it on TNT sometime ago. It's great for locating those nasty boundries - rough-in of the best spot. I then played for quite sopme time before I got them tuned in, but it was still an approximation.

Then I broke out the measuring tape and dialed them in precisely. Yeah - it's a pretty spectacular, eye/ear opening event when it all comes together. But one inch difference isn't enough. I found 1/4 inch differences (especially in tor-in) make a difference in my room.

And yes, the head position changes the sound too. It's not quite head in a vise, but it is limited to a very small amount of side-to-side movement.

Enjoy,
Bob

orthobiz

Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #12 on: 4 Jul 2005, 10:43 pm »
OK. It's the exact website address but you have to get there a different way, you can't simply click on the link at TNT...

biz

Heli-Dog

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Re: Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #13 on: 10 Aug 2005, 08:36 pm »
Quote from: Terry
I have had my DeCapo-i for a little over two years. For most of this period, I have been listening in the near field, with the speakers 7' apart and with my listening chair at the apex of the triangle. This is essentially the Cardas method of speaker placement (the Golden ratio).  .....A couple of weeks ago I thought I would try the Wilson Audio Speaker Placement (WASP) method.


Terry;

Just cuious, but what was the height of your speaker stands when you went through this speaker placement experiment?  Thanks.

Terry

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Re: Speaker position - an interesting story
« Reply #14 on: 11 Aug 2005, 02:43 am »
Quote from: Heli-Dog
Just cuious, but what was the height of your speaker stands when you went through this speaker placement experiment?  Thanks.


26 inches. And I do agree with others that getting the measurements and toe-in just right is quite critical to the WASP. Once you have got it right, it is the best, IMHO.