[nodiak]

Happiness hit me when I realized I could use a single sub at 70 hz for OB's using B200's. I like single subs best as they avoid cancellations and unwanted boosts compared to stereo subs.
    So, thought it might be of use to share the different bass ideas being considered.

    Because I have them already I'm going to use a 12" driver (Meniscus 1284) in a mltl cab. Seperate electronic xo and amp (Adcom 555) for me. May go with a dedicated sub plate amp someday if it simplifies anything, or a tripath (41 hz?).
    This sub set up will work with my current favorite speakers too (Decware Radial 1.5's), so I don't have to give them up to have B200's.
   
    Nigel, how do you like the WO32? What amp and xo? I'm interested in that sub.
    Others?

    Don

[mcgsxr]

Nice thread.  I am in the middle of working up a design that will do it for me, for bass for my panels.

I like the idea of your mltl, and many have suggested that this is grown up bass etc, but I am still looking to get hit in the chest... so I am trying to brew up a Linkwitz style W baffle with some LARGE woofers.

I will share, as things come together, but I warn you in advance, that most will just laugh it off, and call me a crackpot - no worries, such is the life of the true bass head!  

[nodiak]

I love to hear the full spectrum of bass instruments too, no 30 hz cutoff for me either! I'm interested in the w, h and u baffles for bass, so will be all ears about your experiences mcgsxr. even started a pair of u's for my 12's but decided to try the mltl first.

Decware has some very interesting bass systems that I hope to someday explore: The wo32, housewrecker, deathbox have my attention. The names sound wrong for high fidelity but they're all supposed to have tight audiophile bass. Like to find out someday.
Don

[Dmason]

Don

Great thread. Timely.

Yes, the biggest BONUS to my thinking is the rather slow rolloff of the B200 allowing you to pick and choose bass weapons. Mark wants the mosh pit, others want the holographic thing, some will want stereo sealed subs, I kinda like high performance [big] pipes like the 60" Jumbo JX design by GM, instead of the now-defunct Jordan JX150 one can use the outstanding HiVi M8N with even better results. These are not WAF approved at all, but are totally insanely great bass machines for theB200 to sing over. In fact, from my own experience, MLTL's work so well that I would say a large high performance pipe using a good pro audio 12-15" coaxial might be the living end, as a big-sound load for the ClariT, or any amp, and that will be my next design. Think 75 X 19" in your living room.

I think the single most educational site for dipole would be Sigfried Linkwitz' www.linkwitzlab.com for the dipole bass thing. Dr Linkwitz has this stuff down cold and has made recent amendments. I made some even easier than PP dipole, using a baffle @90' to the front baffle, as a kick stand, cutout and mount an Eminence Delta 12LF. Perfect. Works a charm. You would still need a proper "sub" for low end grunt, but the dipole bass experiment works and works well, and is dead easy, once again, to make happen!!

[ooheadsoo]

I'll be trying it with GR's PR sub.  Yeah, totally anathema to you guys, but at least one of us will know (eventually) if it will work at all.

[barfind]

Don, in all honesty, I think the wo32 should be renamed "superwoofer", not "sub-woofer" They work well enough, and are fast, but they dont go anywhere deep enough. I think for all the time and materials, we could come up with a better design, especially with our collective heads. Just my opinion. O, using Behringer 2900 active xover and NAD 240w high current amp. this should give me the goods, but the wo just refuses to go deep
 I was thinking of trying something like this approach, I like the f3 of 17hz
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1013/

Talk to ya later, will do some more investigation.

Nigel

[JLM]

I've heard Steve Deckert's (Decware) Imperial horns (two 15 inch woofers in stereo 2ft x 3ft x 6ft cabinets) and was not impressed.  Don't recall the drivers (JBL knockoffs I believe) or amp.  Steve's amps either don't do deep bass or don't do it well (in the case of his Torii it was bloated/uncontrolled).  IMO this is largely due to the SET quest for high efficiency and poorly damping of tubes lead this crowd to ignore/forget what deep, powerful bass even is.  My take is that most of the Decware bunch, like most SET lovers, are quite content to stop at 40 Hz.

I'll take MLTLs any day over horns, sealed boxes, pipes, or vented designs.  The bass is tight, extremely musical, and extended.  Not for the boomboom/rattle your teeth crowd.  Note that previous bass units I owned were rated to 17 Hz at 114 dB, so they can definitely deliver the mail.  Dan is on the right track with MLTL all the way.  The rear midrange wave is absorbed into the cabinet for clear midrange sound.  My Bob Brines FTA-2000 speakers use a single driver (no stinking whizzer) to produce 30-20,000 Hz from a 13"x16"x48" cabinet.  Unfortunately they're only 90 dB/w/m, but without a crossover, they're doable with my stereo Clari-T (as mentioned several times more power would be very helpful).

[Dmason]

MLTL bass has a transient response that is up to hanging with dipole open baffle speaks. They are far more than a bass invention, and if one mounted the vent on the back, they could have a very real dipolar bass emanation; the ouput from these things is staggering, the sum is MUCH greater than the parts. Fast, powerful metal drivers for bass has been my call for quite awhile, and they are controlled beautifully by todays servo PWM plate amps, which have come a long way. In fact, adding a Jordan JX53, XO 200Hz to these and you would have a very nice full range system.

The search is on for a good 6.5 inch metal cone bass-capable mid woofer, for a scaled down MLTL. Dayton has one which spex well, according to Parts Express. Just one of these, properly implemented can be mor than enough to push out bass for any dipole or DarkStar. DarkStar is easy to implement bass for, thanks to the slow rolloff of the B200.

[nodiak]

ooheadsoo, not sure why you think there would be a general prejudice against pr?! I have 2 passive radiator speaker systems, and like them better than some sealed or vented I've had.
I'm into hearing your response to that set up.
http://www.gr-research.com/drivers/sub_pr.htm
What amp/xo will you use?

Mine are 8" and 10" woofers (Meniscus) using SEAS pr's slot loaded, downfiring, they sound great. 8" is a two way, and 10" has 5" mtm.
VMPS pr subs look great too.
Don

[doug s.]

...I like single subs best as they avoid cancellations and unwanted boosts compared to stereo subs...

could you please elaborate?  *everything* i know about subs - both from experience & theory - sez ya will get far better results w/stereo subs than w/a single sub.

re: cancellations, what happens to the stereo signal when it's summed to mono?  you get cancellations before the signal even hits the driver.  re: unwanted boosts, it's been my expereince that it's usually easier to place two subs in a room than one - due to having two different bass reinforcement locations in the room, that help smooth out room node issues.

now for other benefits of stereo subs - better soundstaging, higher spl w/lower distortion, lower frequency response...

doug s.

[rosconey]

if yo guys want another option take a look at the -pearlfection vmps large sub cabinet thread-

all i can say is the style cabinet appears to work rather well-played  back in  baroque- a strink tribute to ac/dc-has very nice bass and cello and drum music-never sounded better

this style cabinet could be done with other drivers

[doug s.]

if yo guys want another option take a look at the -pearlfection vmps large sub cabinet thread-

all i can say is the style cabinet appears to work rather well-played  back in  baroque- a strink tribute to ac/dc-has very nice bass and cello and drum music-never sounded better

this style cabinet could be done with other drivers

i think this project looks great.  i wonder, tho, how it would sound w/everything the same, except the passive being slot-loaded, per standard vmps subs...  and, one in each front corner of the room, of course!    corner-loading subs definitely gives the most bass output, that's for sure...

doug s.

[rosconey]

thought about slot loading the pr - for what i was trying it would have added too much size to stick it on the bottom-

this works  better than the vmps cabinet - imho

[doug s.]

thought about slot loading the pr - for what i was trying it would have added too much size to stick it on the bottom-

this works  better than the vmps cabinet - imho

i can certainly understand that it would work better than the new "low-boy" style.  i am glad i have the original tall cabinet.    but, not sure about how it woulda added to the size of your cabinet, by slot-loading - yust take the ~3" slot outta the innards of the box...

doug s.

[rosconey]

its not deep enough for the 15"pr-it could handle a 8''-10"pr but no bigger with the current cabinet size-
if i did go big enough then i would have to lower the overall height,but i wanted the 15" driver at the room center-floor to ceiling -



i guess i could make a box the slot loads and place it over the pr-but that would effect the look to much-

[nodiak]

doug s, I've heard strong arguments/theory for both single source bass and stereo in corners or even several in the room. C'mon man, we all have, it's an ongoing subject. Had a conversation with a guy that uses 2 subs, but stacked so there's less cancellation. Another uses 6 subs around the room. Whatever gives you what you want. It's about the room in such a large part also, don't you agree? All the different ideas is what I hope this thread is about in fact. I'm interested and expect to learn something.
I just go with what gives me what I like, for me I get more clarity to the bass textures with a single driver mono sub. Just what I like for music. Tone and texture first for me. The timing is off with more than one sub for what I like to hear, just not as clear. I go for a drier bass, but bring in just enough juiciness/fatness to feel the resonances. I like depth but not excessive visceral room shaking thing (just a wee touch tho), blocks out the music for me.
I watch dvd's with my music system and just turn up the bass, have thought about hooking up a second bass cab when I do that so I can get more pounding bass, but not for music for me. (Not interested in seperate ht system now, maybe later).
What are you into your bass system providing?
BTW, believe me, I have absolutely no judgement about more powerful bass systems, I enjoy them at times. I'm a different strokes for different folks person, don't really argue opinions much (no need to fight for my opinion because I already have it). My head can't take big bass for long, get headaches, probably related to not being able to go more that 6' or so under water before my head feels like it's going to explode. Who knows, if I got a head transplant I might get a bigger bass system! Maybe just sinuse replacement would do.
Also, down the road (after i buy all this other stuff) I'm thinking of an 18" driver for more headroom, looking at Ascendent Avalanche.
Don

[doug s.]

doug s, I've heard strong arguments/theory for both single source bass and stereo in corners or even several in the room. C'mon man, we all have, it's an ongoing subject. Had a conversation with a guy that uses 2 subs, but stacked so there's less cancellation. Another uses 6 subs around the room. Whatever gives you what you want. It's about the room in such a large part also, don't you agree? All the different ideas is what I hope this thread is about in fact. I'm interested and expect to learn something.
I just go with what gives me what I like, for me I get more clarity to the bass textures with a single driver mono sub. Just what I like for music. Tone and texture first for me. The timing is off with more than one sub for what I like to hear, just not as clear. I go for a drier bass, but bring in just enough juiciness/fatness to feel the resonances. I like depth but not excessive visceral room shaking thing (just a wee touch tho), blocks out the music for me.
I watch dvd's with my music system and just turn up the bass, have thought about hooking up a second bass cab when I do that so I can get more pounding bass, but not for music for me. (Not interested in seperate ht system now, maybe later).
What are you into your bass system providing?
BTW, believe me, I have absolutely no judgement about more powerful bass systems, I enjoy them at times. I'm a different strokes for different folks person, don't really argue opinions much (no need to fight for my opinion because I already have it). My head can't take big bass for long, get headaches, probably related to not being able to go more that 6' or so under water before my head feels like it's going to explode. Who knows, if I got a head transplant I might get a bigger bass system! Maybe just sinuse replacement would do.
Also, down the road (after i buy all this other stuff) I'm thinking of an 18" driver for more headroom, looking at Ascendent Avalanche.

don, don't get me wrong.  i am always up for a learning experience.    but, i have *never* heard *anyone* ever say mono bass is better.  i have heard arguments made that that mono bass can be as good as stereo, if done right, but that's it.  in my experience, the only time i have ever heard mono bass that only compromises soundstaging a *little*, is when the sub is in the nearfield, directly centered between the speakers.

as far as what i want w/bass, i want natural musical presentation, that's all.  i don't like watching movies, so the h-t thing is not at all what i am looking for.  if you are into timing, texture and feel - not more pounding bass - adding a second sub will certainly give you this.  if the spl is the same, you will have the drivers working 50% less, which means less distortion.  if a pair of subs is set up w/2-channel audio in mind - each sub inside or outside of the monitors, depending on your room - then you will get a better soundstage than w/no subs at all.  and, as i said, my experience w/one sub has been, at best, a small diminution of soundstage.  if the sub isn't directly centered, then the soundstage is degraded even more.  even when crossed over as low as 40-50hz, you can localize the sub.

a buddy of mine w/stereo subs set up properly, actively crossed over w/a marchand 24db/octave x-over at 80hz, was amazed at the improved soundstaging he got.  one day, he couldn't figure out what happened to it - the soundstaging was reduced, he dint know why.  he checked the x-over, only to find he had inadvertently  turned on the mono-sum switch the unit had, when he was dusting the prewious day...  

so, while i think a mono sub can be *almost* as good as stereo subs, the set-up has to be yust right.  and then, you will be sacrificing a bit of soundstaging, for better bass, compared to no subs at all.  w/stereo subs, you get better bass *and* better soundstaging.  but, to do this, you have to set up the subs for soundstaging, yust like the monitors.  you may in fact be getting less bass than the subs would be capable of, if not set up in this fashion, but it's still better than no subs.  if yure into h-t, this may not work - you may wanna stick the subs in the corners for max bass gain.  as i am not into this, it's never been an issue.  if ya have good subs, they will work fine for music, when out into the room like yer monitors.

check out the pic below.  sure, the subs could be placed for more bass, but for *music*, it's really nice.  



tho hard to tell in the pic, the subs are 6' out from the back wall.  unfortunately, present personal issues mean that i no longer have this exact set-up, but my present set-up is layed out similarly, yust on a smaller scale.

regards,

doug s.

[nodiak]

Hi Doug, the only thing I'm having trouble with is you keep emphasizing that you've never heard anyone state that mono is better than stereo for bass. That's a pretty common idea, and the debate of mono vs. stereo has been going on a long time. But it's one of those drastic A vs. B debates that can turn people off from trying different things, nobody wants to do something considered wrong/stupid.
I should clarify that I don't think stereo subs are bad at all. In fact I'm using stereo subs now so I can enjoy my ob's that only go down to ~ 150 hz. This system sounds great. I do like the mono bass better with speakers I have that go to 70 hz, so I'm glad the B200's can fit in with that scheme. I think I would say I get ~ 10-15% more of what I want from mono sub, so I'm not at all hating stereo subs. I mean the same situation exists with a pair of speakers that have bass drivers (like a 3 way), and I sure don't think they would automatically suck because they have stereo bass. I will try stereo again because I enjoy playing with speakers. What can I say but it's in my room, my equipment, my ears.
The last discussion I had about this was with Chad Kuyper of Ascendent Audio. They make very long excursion woofers with powerful motors for low distortion high spl systems, usually used in cars. I know some would automatically dis them as car fodder, but I see it as all about sound quality via headroom, something that I agree with. Also he used to make a living playing acoustic bass in an orchestra, so he has the ears. He's the one I mentioned who uses 2 subs stacked in a corner for his home system.
Anyway I'd hate to see this thread get killed by an unwinnable debate. I'm willing to go a little further with the issue, but in the end it's going to be room and user dependent to me. YMMV.
Also I noticed you mentioned subs in corners to rosconey, yet show a photo of subs 6' out from wall in your former system. You're obviously up on how dramatically different subs react to placement. Now that's an interesting subject.
Would like to hear form others on mono vs. stereo bass issue.
But hoping for experiences with either mono or stereo more.
Don

[mcgsxr]

Does anyone know if one can combine isobaric loading, with dipole bass?

IE, on an H baffle, normally, one would mount a driver facing each way, but what would happen if you mounted all 4 of them on the baffle, face to face, out of phase....

Just thinking out loud.

[mcgsxr]

Since no one is biting on my subs for sale... and they do look like they might do well in a Decware deathbox... I popped the $10 for the plans today, and I will build them up.

Might as well find out what all the fuss is about, and they may indeed do the trick with the b200's.

I will report back on what I find!