[amdan]

Hi guys. In my system, the BR20 sounds great except that the sound is 'thin'. It lacks warmth and body. I believe it lacks mid-bass. I'm using Roon and the amp is a Bryston 14B ST and the speakers are B&W 802. Has anyone faced this problem and found a solution? My hope is that someone can recommend a tweak that has fixed the issue e.g. power cable or some form of vibration treatment.
Note that I have tried a Furutech power cable and it fixed the issue however at the expense of the high frequencies. The result is a lack of top end energy and 'air'. In other words, it worked but went too far. 
TIA.

[Altitude Fidelity]

This may be obvious but, make sure you don’t have any unwanted EQ setting in ROON turned on. The BR-20 is about as transparent as can be so that’s not your problem. Maybe the speakers or room setup? Have you tried playing with toe in/out? Cables aren’t going to fix anything. I used to have the 802D2 but didn’t notice what you are describing. The room was properly treated though…

[amdan]

Thank you. I don't think I have EQ set on Roon but I will check. Its interesting that you did not have this problem with your B&Ws.

I don't think it is a room treatment issue. I have a lot of experience with that. Also, my external streamer and DAC don't exhibit this behaviour.

[GrooveControl]

If you have access to an EQ in roon, try using it to fill in the midbass a bit.  2-3db in the 100-250hz range.

[zoom25]

As long as you have the purple light showing on Roon with all the DSP/headroom/EQ turned off...that's as good as it can get with Roon as far as fidelity goes.

If you're using local music ONLY within Roon, then maybe put some of it on a drive or a NAS and use Bryston's native Manic Moose to play those same files.

If you're also subscribed to a streaming service such as Tidal or Qobuz (I have both at the moment) and use it within Roon (have had for 10+ years now), also consider taking BR-20 out of Roon Ready and using MPD in Manic Moose. Sign in to the streaming services and use them directly through Manic Moose.

I'm not going to suggest any further changes such as cables (type/length), LPS, network switches, routers etc at the moment....you keep everything as is and just try out Manic Moose MPD. You can back and forth MPD with local music/streaming services vs. Roon Ready.

(Disregard if you've already tried MPD and came with other conclusions).

[jobiwon]

also consider taking BR-20 out of Roon Ready and using MPD in Manic Moose. Sign in to the streaming services and use them directly through Manic Moose.

Yes how does MPD sound vs ROON?  What is the ROON core running on?

[amdan]

Thanks guys for you suggestions. I will try them out over the next few days.

[zoom25]

Yes how does MPD sound vs ROON?  What is the ROON core running on?

I'm using an Intel NUC running Windows 11 for Roon Core and as a HTPC (Plex, Netflix, Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify). It's hardwired with CAT6 gigabit ethernet, as is the Bryston BDP-1.

Recently I took up the 1 month trial offer to finally try out Qobuz and compare it to Tidal and Spotify Lossless (which has gotten better with exclusive mode now available as a beta option...but they still resample anything higher than 24/44.1).

Combinations available:

1) Qobuz in Roon (RAAT Bryston endpoint and others)
2) Tidal in Roon (RAAT Bryston endpoint and others)

3) Qobuz native app (both desktop and iOS)
4) Tidal native app (both desktop and iOS)

5) Roon ARC

6) Spotify Lossless (both desktop and iOS)

I don't want to influence OP's impressions on MPD vs, Roon yet, but will say the "character/house sound" of these streaming services seem to be carrying across different platforms. Whether it's through Roon, wired endpoints, their native desktop apps and wired with high quality gear, or CarPlay, or even using my Bluetooth headphones.

Lately with the weather getting better, I've been going on longer walks outside with just my iPhone and cheap $30wireless earbuds. Even with ambient noise and traffic, you can still hear the distinct and repeatable patterns across Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz, Roon ARC/Qobuz, and Roon ARC/Tidal. All of them have normalization, headroom, EQ turned off. I make sure to compare 1:1 recordings and avoiding stuff with multiple (re)releases, deluxe, Atmos, high-res/low res releases...just stuff that was released in version across all of them. Regardless, once you've heard and compared few hundred to thousand tracks across all of them, it becomes hard to miss it or deny it.

IMO it doesn't take high-end gear to hear the differences. Better gear might help you make better sense of the differences you're hearing for sure though! Family members who are musically and singing inclined, but don't give a damn about the tech and audio, could also pick up the same things I was hearing FWIW.

I know for a lot of people achieving bit-perfect playback is where the pursuit ends, but personally I think that's where the fun begins.

[amdan]

Hi guys. Thanks again for your suggestions.

Altitude Fidelity - my Roon DSP was not set - this was not the issue.

Groove Control - I have not tried your idea as yet but did do a variation - see below.

zoom 25/jobiwon - I tried Manic Moose but that was worse!

jobiwon - my Roon core is a Ubuntu on a Surface Pro - it has plenty of processing power for the job.

Fortunately, I have found a solution - not perfect but the system is listenable without much fatigue if any. It is too early to tell.

1. I changed the power cord. This helped a bit.
2. I dampened the chassis by placing a heavy book on the BR20. This pretty much solved the problem of system sounding hot/tizzy/fatiguing.
3. I increased the crossover point of my sub-woofer which also helped a lot in making it sound warmer.

It is still not sounding as good as my external DAC and streamer but at least it now sounds decent and acceptably high-end!

I'll try out DSP in the mid-bass region as per Groove Control's suggestion. Hopefully, this will improve it further. Thanks again everyone.

Oh! I almost forgot. For those of you who are using Manic Moose and have not tried Roon, I strongly suggest you do so. The Roon user experience is much better than MM but more importantly, in my system, Roon's SQ is far superior.

[zoom25]

Glad that you were able to resolve your issue.

I'm curious how you were using Manic Moose and Roon. Were you using the network wired connection or USB from Surface Pro for Roon? USB drives or NAS/network for Manic Moose? Local files and/or streaming service(s)?

I fully agree that Roon provides a much better overall experience in comparison to the Moose.

[amdan]

I use Roon over my home WiFi network not USB. I was not aware that a USB connection is a valid method for connecting the PC with the BR20.
When I did my test I used Tidal only.
I think I will have to try out the idea of using Roon's DSP and introduce a mid-bass increase. Changing the sub-woofer crossover point also impacts CD and vinyl impact and so is not a convenient solution.

[zoom25]

I use Roon over my home WiFi network not USB. I was not aware that a USB connection is a valid method for connecting the PC with the BR20.
When I did my test I used Tidal only.
I think I will have to try out the idea of using Roon's DSP and introduce a mid-bass increase. Changing the sub-woofer crossover point also impacts CD and vinyl impact and so is not a convenient solution.

I saw a USB-B input port on the back labelled "USB Audio" so I figured you could just connect your computer directly with a USB cable. That could've been a control configuration if you felt the need to experiment just to see how different protocols/players compared. Tidal app, Qobuz app, Spotify, Roon (with both Tidal and Qobuz).

As far as your problem goes with lack of air and mid bass...your solution (and mine as well) is to get Qobuz. I've had Tidal for the past 3 years and it was a nice offering at the time as it had a lot of the music that Spotify had and it integrated with Roon. I didn't choose Qobuz at the time since it wasn't available here in Canada, was expensive, and lacked the catalogue.

I've been using Qobuz both within its native app and in Roon against the identical Tidal variants. I am not fond of the native app as the playlists and autoplay recommendations are far worse than Spotify and Tidal. It has a bit less stuff than Tidal. Qobuz trial came with Soundiiz transfer option so I used that to transfer all my playlists and loaded them in Roon as well.

I would personally never use Qobuz as my sole app. The algorithms and search bar implementation is awful, but they absolutely nail it where it counts. Sound quality is the best amongst Spotify, Tidal, and Amazon Music. Not only tonally, but image and soundstage wise. You will get breather room and bass tightness with Qobuz. This carries over in Roon as well. Even though Roon sends PCM over RAAT to endpoints, so it shouldn't matter what specific FLAC encoder (handled in the Core) is used by each streaming service, since the resulting receiving PCM should be identical to the endpoint (Bryston BDP/BR-20) and thus they should sound the same. Yet, they don't...No idea for the reason why this difference remains in tone and presentation whether it's over Roon Arc cellular far away from home, or an all wired networked component, or semi wired/wifi endpoint.

This is however not that surprising from practical experience with Roon back when I first got it. At that point, I used to use my BDP-1 w/ Manic Moose MDP and all my original music was on a portable hard drive. The originals were in FLAC. But for sound quality experiments I had my library duplicated in WAV by batch conversion via XLD. The FLAC and WAV files sounded different on BDP-1 which wasn't too surprising since the processing was happening within the unit. So when I moved to Roon, I kept the hard drive as is and forgot to remove the WAV (which wouldn't play nicely with Roon's need for metadata and I had duplicates of everything which was messy!). Yet, I noticed that with the networked BDP-1, that the WAV and FLAC variants sounded different within Roon. It was confusing as I had done the conversion myself and so I knew 100% these files were identical and that the BDP-1 was not doing processing any differently since it only sees the identical PCM. Yet for whatever reason the difference remained in the tone/presentation.

In summary, load up Qobuz in Roon.

I'm picking up Qobuz and have set it as my primary choice in Roon over Tidal. I'm still thinking if I should keep my Tidal to fill any remaining gaps.

[amdan]

I have compared Qobuz to Tidal. In my system, Qobuz simply sounds brighter than Tidal. As far as I can tell there is no fundamental improvement in SQ. Given that the BR-20 sounds bright in my system, Tidal is the better choice for me.

It is very interesting that you found that your wav and flac files for the same album sound different. It would be good to understand why.

[zoom25]

I finished out my trial with Qobuz and I'm sticking with Tidal as well for multiple reasons, including sound quality.

First off, Roon has been really helpful in showing how messy BOTH Tidal and Qobuz are in terms of what songs and album versions they broadcast on their native apps. I sometimes found only the 1 or sometimes 2 versions at most in the native apps, yet, there were 5-6 versions in each app that somehow did not show up whatsoever through the app. Yet, they were all visible in Roon and they all played music, meaning they weren't dead files from previous release. Additionally, I could find some albums in Tidal and Qobuz but when I'd try it through Roon(Arc), they would not show up no matter what I searched. This also went in the other direction.

After spending careful time matching the exact versions and release via Roon's 'Version' Tab and avoiding some of the MQA I (or rather Tidal app) had put in there, I started noticing the difference between Tidal and Qobuz in native app and even through Roon.

With Qobuz (especially native app), I noticed the sound was large and 3D which was nice for headphones in a 'fun' way for awhile. In fact, when I was booted up Qobuz app I noticed that I had never gotten my speakers to sound as wide as that ever before, whether music or movies, Youtube, Plex, Amazon Video, Netflix, Blurays etc. In fact my own FLAC/WAV with the BDP-1 never sounded like that.

With Qobuz playing music, I felt more drawn to the different elements in the mix, but never the vocals. They were there but they never moved me. This week I especially put on some childhood stuff that I had heard thousands of times across all analog and digital format releases. That really helped me lock in what was happening with the Qobuz encode. On songs that where I know the vocalists sing their butt off and it's supposed to PEAK with some intensity...those peaks didn't deliver with Qobuz. It did much better comparatively with Tidal.

I find Tidal to be the darkest/blackest in comparison to Spotify/Qobuz. My issue with Spotify was that it felt too suffocating and it had this  "controlled"
yet bassy sound to it where the music felt loud the whole time. Qobuz and Tidal were much better in the openness aspect but I still felt that Qobuz was Spotify ish in the sense of control. It felt strict and the music didn't quite flow like it did with Tidal.

I spent some time transcoding FLAC downloads from Qobuz against their derived WAV counterparts and sure enough the WAV sounded more explosive, less controlled and with more flow. Pre-streaming days with local files and BDP-1, I used to compare FLAC and WAV and I found that WAV always felt more relaxing to listen to, darker, and something I could zone out to. The FLACs felt more brighter/detailed, almost "put-together" to look pristine yet you couldn't truly turn off your brain from noticing those details and just get into the music. I think Tidal's encoding (through its app or Roon) is much closer to WAV in that sense of the flow.

Reverbs and purposeful vocal breathiness where the voice is supposes to peak and then fade into the ether naturally is done much better on Tidal. The same thing on Qobuz would light up the whole soundstage. Instead of a clean reverb vanishing into nothing, it felt like it was hitting some invisible wall with Qobuz, which is what gives it the bright feeling as well.

Qobuz impresses (at first) in terms of how things can look and sound, but they lack the cohesiveness to make things sound authentically real. Tidal is smaller but actually makes you feel things. When I'd change from a couple of tracks of Qobuz straight to Tidal, I'd feel as if things had impact, sharpness and impact with weight. While I wouldn't be drawn to individual things in the mix like with Qobuz, the holistic feel of the mix was better with Tidal.

[zoom25]

I'm not sure of all your audio/power cables in the system, but with respect to just BR-20, I will say that I found the combination of having both a shorter network cable and have it powered by a LPS made things more blacker for both my BDP-1 and wired iMac's USB output. I tried long cable coming directly from router with regular SMPS, long cable coming from switch (but with LPS), and short cable coming from switch w/ LPS. All Fluke tested CAT6 UTP w/ large AWG. I had some mini UTP patch cables that were fine speed wise but they didn't sound right.

[Blueshound]

I've just read this thread through from the beginning. Several variables being mixed together here, and in the context of the OP's starting post, some variables that I don't recall being illuminated. Such as room size and shape, treatments, power conditioning, other system components and so on.

To the OP, cables and power cords may or may not be at the root of your concern, but there is no question that proper tuning using them can help. With my own largely Bryston system, over the past 14 months or so I've invested time and money in tuning via cables and PCs, and along with other setup refinements, I've gotten some very good results. What I've been hearing with each change, sometimes better and sometimes not, has been verified by two friends who hear my system frequently, one of which is also a life-long industry participant. Both have confirmed hearing essentially what I have.

I have a BP19, BDP3,BDA3, Bryston amps & T10s in active mode.

I've found that four figure costs for cables aren't necessary to tune a system. Having tested a few options, I've settled on two brands for their generally very good potential for good SQ, good value, and that generally avoid the symptom of a perceptual increase in detail and the expense of natural tonality and musicality. System synergy is also a factor, so what works here may not be what you need.

Oyaide and Mogami. Mogami is largely focused on pro, stage and studio, but have a few exceptional offerings that can work well in residential systems. Oyaide, at their core, are expert at metallurgy and construction geometries, and have some of the purest sounding copper-based cables. Currently my interconnects are mostly Mogami, as are my speaker cables. For now, I've settled on Oyaide for PCs. (I won't name the "audiophile" brands that have been replaced by these.) 

My point is that, while good setup has to address every aspect of a system, it HAS to include suitable after-market cables and power cords. Many after-market power cords share the all too common problem of other cables, i.e. some great qualities but marred by an emphasis on upper mids and lower highs that can make a system sound a-musical (although impressive on initial listen), unless your system happens to be recessed in those bands, or your room over-damped etc.

The discussion of MM vs. Roon etc. is interesting. I use MM with a local library, and I don't use internet streaming, so I may have a blind spot there. Apart from convenience, I haven't been impressed with either Tidal or Quobuz streamed sound quality. My friend keeps telling me I should try Roon. I'm waiting to hear what Bryston may or may not be about to introduce.

Not sure if this helps, hope so.

Brian

[amdan]

I finished out my trial with Qobuz and I'm sticking with Tidal as well for multiple reasons, including sound quality.

First off, Roon has been really helpful in showing how messy BOTH Tidal and Qobuz are in terms of what songs and album versions they broadcast on their native apps. I sometimes found only the 1 or sometimes 2 versions at most in the native apps, yet, there were 5-6 versions in each app that somehow did not show up whatsoever through the app. Yet, they were all visible in Roon and they all played music, meaning they weren't dead files from previous release. Additionally, I could find some albums in Tidal and Qobuz but when I'd try it through Roon(Arc), they would not show up no matter what I searched. This also went in the other direction.

After spending careful time matching the exact versions and release via Roon's 'Version' Tab and avoiding some of the MQA I (or rather Tidal app) had put in there, I started noticing the difference between Tidal and Qobuz in native app and even through Roon.

With Qobuz (especially native app), I noticed the sound was large and 3D which was nice for headphones in a 'fun' way for awhile. In fact, when I was booted up Qobuz app I noticed that I had never gotten my speakers to sound as wide as that ever before, whether music or movies, Youtube, Plex, Amazon Video, Netflix, Blurays etc. In fact my own FLAC/WAV with the BDP-1 never sounded like that.

With Qobuz playing music, I felt more drawn to the different elements in the mix, but never the vocals. They were there but they never moved me. This week I especially put on some childhood stuff that I had heard thousands of times across all analog and digital format releases. That really helped me lock in what was happening with the Qobuz encode. On songs that where I know the vocalists sing their butt off and it's supposed to PEAK with some intensity...those peaks didn't deliver with Qobuz. It did much better comparatively with Tidal.

I find Tidal to be the darkest/blackest in comparison to Spotify/Qobuz. My issue with Spotify was that it felt too suffocating and it had this  "controlled"
yet bassy sound to it where the music felt loud the whole time. Qobuz and Tidal were much better in the openness aspect but I still felt that Qobuz was Spotify ish in the sense of control. It felt strict and the music didn't quite flow like it did with Tidal.

I spent some time transcoding FLAC downloads from Qobuz against their derived WAV counterparts and sure enough the WAV sounded more explosive, less controlled and with more flow. Pre-streaming days with local files and BDP-1, I used to compare FLAC and WAV and I found that WAV always felt more relaxing to listen to, darker, and something I could zone out to. The FLACs felt more brighter/detailed, almost "put-together" to look pristine yet you couldn't truly turn off your brain from noticing those details and just get into the music. I think Tidal's encoding (through its app or Roon) is much closer to WAV in that sense of the flow.

Reverbs and purposeful vocal breathiness where the voice is supposes to peak and then fade into the ether naturally is done much better on Tidal. The same thing on Qobuz would light up the whole soundstage. Instead of a clean reverb vanishing into nothing, it felt like it was hitting some invisible wall with Qobuz, which is what gives it the bright feeling as well.

Qobuz impresses (at first) in terms of how things can look and sound, but they lack the cohesiveness to make things sound authentically real. Tidal is smaller but actually makes you feel things. When I'd change from a couple of tracks of Qobuz straight to Tidal, I'd feel as if things had impact, sharpness and impact with weight. While I wouldn't be drawn to individual things in the mix like with Qobuz, the holistic feel of the mix was better with Tidal.

It looks like you found Tidal to be more musical than Qobuz from what you say above. I didn't specifically notice this when I did my testing but now that you mention it, it rings true.

Also, it looks like you found Qobuz's FLAC files have lost some of the information in the WAV file - is that what you are saying?

[amdan]

I'm not sure of all your audio/power cables in the system, but with respect to just BR-20, I will say that I found the combination of having both a shorter network cable and have it powered by a LPS made things more blacker for both my BDP-1 and wired iMac's USB output. I tried long cable coming directly from router with regular SMPS, long cable coming from switch (but with LPS), and short cable coming from switch w/ LPS. All Fluke tested CAT6 UTP w/ large AWG. I had some mini UTP patch cables that were fine speed wise but they didn't sound right.

Do you mean it sounded better with a shorter network cable and when the switch was powered by a linear power supply?

[amdan]

I've just read this thread through from the beginning. Several variables being mixed together here, and in the context of the OP's starting post, some variables that I don't recall being illuminated. Such as room size and shape, treatments, power conditioning, other system components and so on.

To the OP, cables and power cords may or may not be at the root of your concern, but there is no question that proper tuning using them can help. With my own largely Bryston system, over the past 14 months or so I've invested time and money in tuning via cables and PCs, and along with other setup refinements, I've gotten some very good results. What I've been hearing with each change, sometimes better and sometimes not, has been verified by two friends who hear my system frequently, one of which is also a life-long industry participant. Both have confirmed hearing essentially what I have.

I have a BP19, BDP3,BDA3, Bryston amps & T10s in active mode.

I've found that four figure costs for cables aren't necessary to tune a system. Having tested a few options, I've settled on two brands for their generally very good potential for good SQ, good value, and that generally avoid the symptom of a perceptual increase in detail and the expense of natural tonality and musicality. System synergy is also a factor, so what works here may not be what you need.

Oyaide and Mogami. Mogami is largely focused on pro, stage and studio, but have a few exceptional offerings that can work well in residential systems. Oyaide, at their core, are expert at metallurgy and construction geometries, and have some of the purest sounding copper-based cables. Currently my interconnects are mostly Mogami, as are my speaker cables. For now, I've settled on Oyaide for PCs. (I won't name the "audiophile" brands that have been replaced by these.) 

My point is that, while good setup has to address every aspect of a system, it HAS to include suitable after-market cables and power cords. Many after-market power cords share the all too common problem of other cables, i.e. some great qualities but marred by an emphasis on upper mids and lower highs that can make a system sound a-musical (although impressive on initial listen), unless your system happens to be recessed in those bands, or your room over-damped etc.

The discussion of MM vs. Roon etc. is interesting. I use MM with a local library, and I don't use internet streaming, so I may have a blind spot there. Apart from convenience, I haven't been impressed with either Tidal or Quobuz streamed sound quality. My friend keeps telling me I should try Roon. I'm waiting to hear what Bryston may or may not be about to introduce.

Not sure if this helps, hope so.

Brian

Thanks Brian - I have tried several PCs and am happy with what I have however I will get a pair of Mogami interconnects to try out. Is there a particular model you recommend? I assume they have several?

[Blueshound]

Hi guys. In my system, the BR20 sounds great except that the sound is 'thin'. It lacks warmth and body. I believe it lacks mid-bass. I'm using Roon and the amp is a Bryston 14B ST and the speakers are B&W 802. Has anyone faced this problem and found a solution? My hope is that someone can recommend a tweak that has fixed the issue e.g. power cable or some form of vibration treatment.
Note that I have tried a Furutech power cable and it fixed the issue however at the expense of the high frequencies. The result is a lack of top end energy and 'air'. In other words, it worked but went too far. 
TIA.

Hi amdan. I'm referencing your starting post as the last sentence may be important in terms of what kind of cables you may like at the end of the day. Can I ask what interconnects you're currently using between the BR20 and the 14B? Also, what speaker cables? Does the room itself strike you as tending toward brightness or warm? (A dead sounding room is frequently the result of over-damping of high frequencies.)

As for Mogami interconnects, IMO their best sounding analog interconnects are actually cables they market for AES/EBU or microphone use. 3173 is very good and it currently connects my BP19 to the BAX1 crossover via 35' lengths, with shorter runs of 3173 connecting the BAX outputs to the amp inputs. All balanced. Recently it came to my attention that a cable that Mogami markets as Platinum Studio is a step up from 3173 in absolute SQ, however as usual system synergy can be a factor.

The Platinum Studio is typically sold as singles for digital or mic cables. I'd describe this as a smooth neutral sounding cable - I don't think of it as emphasizing nor diminishing any part of the tonal range. Lows, mids and highs have an attractive continuity. (My own experience is that cables, particularly in the audiophile-verse, can sometimes sound more impressive initially if they slightly emphasize upper mids. Occasionally this character is accompanied by a very slight dip in the lower mids. (This "voicing" can be created intentionally by a manufacturer who understands how to use construction and materials to an intended result.)

As far as I know, Platinum Studio is only available as balanced with XLRs.

Neither 3173 nor Platinum Studio will emphasize high frequencies relative to the rest of the frequency range. I think of this as a somewhat rare and positive thing, but I'm also thinking about your comment on your system lacking top end after going to the Furutech PC. (I have no experience with Furutech cables or PCs.) The great thing is that neither 3173 nor Platinum Studio are particularly costly, so not painful to try for yourself.

FYI I also use Mogami 3104 speaker cables x 3 pair, required by the active configuration.

Cheers
Brian