[John Casler]

Sorry, I got so busy, I haven't had time to post some ideas.

It is my impression, that you need an acoustical intervention, but can't place wall/floor/ceiling treatments in a fixed manner.

I don't want to write an encyclopedia, but there are other means and methods for controlling sound, that are equally effective and can be employed "only" while engaging in High Performance 2 Channel Listening.

I have to start at the beginning, which is early loudspeaker design.  Early on, the goal of a loudspeaker was to present sound to a space via directivity and dispersion in a manner that offered a broad area of covering the space being targeted.  That is , as much as possible "uniform dispersion" to all of the space.  This is an admirable goal for PA systems, and Live Music venues, but falls down in a home music system.  The reason is that this uniform coverage creates substantially more reflected sound, (distortion) than accurate direct sound to your ears.

This led to various types of horns, wave guides and devices to produce broad even dispersion over a larger area.  Only problem  with this is that such directivity produces maximum reflections, which interfered with the program material as the reflected sound bounced around the room.

It also led to the development of speakers that attempted to use reflected sound (usually dipolar) to create a MIRAGE via "employing" reflected sounds, which is quite pleasing, but ultimately not accurate to the original recording   This is quite popular via dipolar speaker designs, especially because it sounds wonderfully pleasing.

All and all, ANY REFLECTED SOUND not arriving directly from the drivers to your ears IS A DISTORTION to the source.  So, most end up living and listening to more distortion, than pure sound.  That is you don't just listen to your system, you listen to your ROOM.

This spawned a whole industry of Acoustical Room Treatments. where you deal with the reflected distortions by mounting as many acoustically absorbent panels as your wife, or budget will allow.  This is ALL to reduce these reflections.

This method I am suggesting, works from another angle.  It blocks, impedes, or reduces the sound that would eventually be reflected off walls, and ceiling; BEFORE it gets there.  If you can employ this method with your speakers, the clarity, and realism will be very impressive, and in the simple method I suggest not that expensive or permanent.

It consists of placing sound absorbing materials over and around the speaker and about 6" (may vary) out from the speakers face.  This effectively blocks, or reduces the sound you don't hear directly, which is the ONLY important sound, if you want accuracy over mirage.

And wonderfully you can remove the materials and shove them in a closet until such a time as you wish to engage in High Performance Listening again.  The ultimate in simplicity.

I use a BIG Fluffy Beach Towel, with a piece of acoustical foam underneath to support the towel at the top and allow it to overhang the top section, and will effectively reduce ceiling reflections.  See photos for a clearer picture of the application.  I have also occasionally added a 3rd layer of a "Moving Pad or Blanket" over this contraption. (not shown, but the thickness and absorbency is HIGHLY effective.)

This will have virtually no effect on lower and bass frequencies, but is incredible above that.  And has a side benefit of blocking "side cabinet resonances" which are also a problem sonically with many speaker types.

Sorry this was so long, but to some it will be a paradigm shifting or radical concept..

Just remember, it will allow you to hear all the DIRECT sound from the drivers, and reduce the reflections at the source, instead of covering your walls with expensive, and not often pleasing panels.

In the end, it will move towards the purity of sound you achieve from headphones, but with sound staging and imaging intact, which will be more accurate and precise.

If you have questions, let me know, and if you try it, be prepared to have a realigning of what you thought yours system and speakers actually sounded like. And also please be aware, this may not work for your specific speaker brand or model, and this is where a little "Yankee ingenuity" may be needed to try it.

If one enjoys listening to their ROOM, then. . .never mind 🙂

[John Casler]

Side view showing the overhang in front of the speaker



In this case, these are the only components, but adding a Moving Blanket can make it considerably more effective.

When you're done with your session, just throw the components in the closet to keep wifey happy 

If set up properly it will also keep your ears happy, once you get used to actually hearing your speakers.

But remember, you will still need things like bass traps for the lower frequencies.

[BobRex]

John has an….um… unique solution.  If that doesn’t pass muster, can you take panels and just stand/lean them against the wall at the reflection points.  When you aren’t listening stuff them behind (or under) the sofa.

[Early B.]

I calculated the first reflection points and realized that my left speaker is reflecting off a window blind at dead center, and the right speaker is hitting a blank wall where a huge wooden elephant head hangs. These reflection points are midway down the long walls. It's possible that the second reflection point hits the opposite side wall before bouncing off the back wall. In other words, I probably have a back wall area full of all sorts of shenanigans.

For the first reflection on the left side, I've been permitted to replace the blinds with curtains. Perhaps for the right side, I'll buy one 2x4 panel to lean against the wall during listening sessions and see if it makes a difference. At a later time, I'll address the back wall. This may be as much as I can do.       

[Letitroll98]

Side view showing the overhang in front of the speaker



In this case, these are the only components, but adding a Moving Blanket can make it considerably more effective.

When you're done with your session, just throw the components in the closet to keep wifey happy 

If set up properly it will also keep your ears happy, once you get used to actually hearing your speakers.

But remember, you will still need things like bass traps for the lower frequencies.

Absolutely brilliant.  I've owned both speakers with rear firing drivers (Snell) and dipole speakers (Magnaplanar) and I quite like the airy soundstage and never thought it was a distortion.  But I was constantly playing with placement when I had the Maggie's so maybe I was bothered.  Now I have exclusively direct reflectors and this looks really fun to try.  I have the foam, heavy blankets, and cardboard so it's just a matter of getting off my ass.  I have a question about toe in, when using your absorbers do you point the speakers right at the listening position or like normal, pointing somewhere behind the head?

[John Casler]

Thanks but I don't know about brilliant, but for an easy, temporary action to reduce reflected sound, it works, and at a rather low cost. and eliminates some of the need to hang panels all over your walls.

I would assume that Acoustic Treatment sellers, would rather sell you LOTS of hanging anti-reflection devices.

And my suggesting this idea was not to disparage those who "use" their rooms to shape their preferred sound.

In general, in "high performance 2 channel listening", there are 2 options:

1) Transport the performers to your room, and all its qualities
2) Transport YOU to the venue and hear it as if you were there

This concept moves you more toward #2, by attempting to take the room out of the equation.  I should mention that BOTH are valid and fulfilling goals and enjoyable.

Regarding convergence (toe in). . .YES you want to converge the speakers for maximum direct sound, not blocking it.  So, from your seated position, you should see the face and all drivers.

Also keep in mind that the sonic jacket should be layered in such a way, as to have the "softest" HF absorbing layers first.  That is, you would not use a moving blanket, as the first layer.  The moving blanket, would be on the outside layer.

[Early B.]

I'm NOT a measurements guy, but I would be interested in seeing how the speakers measure before and after applying the CBS ("Casler Blanket System"). Measurements would hopefully determine if CBS fixes one problem, but doesn't (or does) create another. 

[John Casler]

Love it Casler Blanket System.

I was just trying to address your original quest. of no hanging panels, but a way to affect ceiling and wall bounce.


If set up well, with good materials, it does just that, except from the opposite direction.  Instead of lining your room with panels to absorb reflections, it absorbs them "before" they reach the wall/ceiling.

Of course it will. as wall panels will, affect the sound.  But unless you are a fan of room reflections (and some of them can be quite pleasing like Maggies and even MBLs) the more pure accuracy of reducing reflections can become addictive.

I have seen the photos of your speakers and the CBS, may be a challenge, but have fun, no matter what.

[Early B.]

Love it Casler Blanket System.

Let's talk about me becoming an investor. Every audiophile with box speakers will need a pair. We'll make a mountain of money with the CBS!!


 

[John Casler]

LOL. . . .

Yes, I know the concept is completely foreign to those who like to "tune their rooms" via an array of often expensive panels.

I tried in a limited way, to explain why loudspeakers have evolved under the original PA systems goals.

In a nutshell, unless you are a live venue, you DO NOT want dispersion all over your room.  All you want is a limited sonic presentation of DIRECT sound.  Everything else continues on till it bounces off a boundary and then becomes distortion.

I had early on considered patenting the device, and even wrote up the patent.  (I already had 4 US patents issued in another feild) But, decided the expense would not allow much benefit, considering the small market of Audiophiles. 

But I saw your initial goals, and thought I might respond.  After seeing the photos of your speakers, you would have to adjust the device in such a manner as to allow you to add it to your wave guide.

And as I have mentioned before, it might sound quite foreign, to those used to listening to their rooms, but as you get used to it, it is hard to go back, except for casual listening.

If you try it, I hope you find the sonic interesting, as it is closer to what your speakers really sound like.

It is more like the accuracy of headphones, but with imaging, and soundstage.

Have fun.

[audioengr]

I have a difficult large room and I have had very good results using Stein H2 and H1 Harmonizers and
Blue Suns.  I also use a single Schumann resonator at the back of the room just above head-height.
The Acoustic Revive Schumann Resonator works on the brain, not the room, but is directional.
It focuses the image nicely, even with no side-wall absorbers, although adding the sidewall absorbers
helps even more.  I have the Stein H2's about 6" behind my speakers and slightly to the outside.
The H2's make the image very wide without messing up the center-stage imaging.
Makes your home theater sound like a large cinema.
Behind my big screen TV I have an H1 mounted on the wall about top of screen height.
The H1 definitely improves the image and dynamics.
For the bounce off my TV screen, I use 1/4 round tube-traps, about 2" behind the speakers with the inside
edge of the speaker being in-line with the flat edge of the tube-trap.  They are acting as scattering devices,
not tube-traps and they pretty much eliminate the effect on the depth of image by the TV screen.
This is a trick I have used for 25 years at shows and in my media room.
What I have discovered is that it takes more than Stein resonators and a few absorbing panels to
fix bad room reflections and other resonances.  Reflections in an odd-shaped large room are hard to deal with.
Imaging and depth are actually the easy part.

Now, I am using a calibrated mic, Antelope preamp and REW software from GIK Acoustics to attack the reflections
and other time-domain issues.  They are very helpful and I found their absorbing panels to be not only attractive with my art on them,
but very effective.  The Stein devices actually work, but their effects do not really show up on the REW plots.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

[mresseguie]

Sorry, I got so busy, I haven't had time to post some ideas.

It is my impression, that you need an acoustical intervention, but can't place wall/floor/ceiling treatments in a fixed manner.

I don't want to write an encyclopedia, but there are other means and methods for controlling sound, that are equally effective and can be employed "only" while engaging in High Performance 2 Channel Listening.

I have to start at the beginning, which is early loudspeaker design.  Early on, the goal of a loudspeaker was to present sound to a space via directivity and dispersion in a manner that offered a broad area of covering the space being targeted.  That is , as much as possible "uniform dispersion" to all of the space.  This is an admirable goal for PA systems, and Live Music venues, but falls down in a home music system.  The reason is that this uniform coverage creates substantially more reflected sound, (distortion) than accurate direct sound to your ears.

This led to various types of horns, wave guides and devices to produce broad even dispersion over a larger area.  Only problem  with this is that such directivity produces maximum reflections, which interfered with the program material as the reflected sound bounced around the room.

It also led to the development of speakers that attempted to use reflected sound (usually dipolar) to create a MIRAGE via "employing" reflected sounds, which is quite pleasing, but ultimately not accurate to the original recording   This is quite popular via dipolar speaker designs, especially because it sounds wonderfully pleasing.

All and all, ANY REFLECTED SOUND not arriving directly from the drivers to your ears IS A DISTORTION to the source.  So, most end up living and listening to more distortion, than pure sound.  That is you don't just listen to your system, you listen to your ROOM.

This spawned a whole industry of Acoustical Room Treatments. where you deal with the reflected distortions by mounting as many acoustically absorbent panels as your wife, or budget will allow.  This is ALL to reduce these reflections.

This method I am suggesting, works from another angle.  It blocks, impedes, or reduces the sound that would eventually be reflected off walls, and ceiling; BEFORE it gets there.  If you can employ this method with your speakers, the clarity, and realism will be very impressive, and in the simple method I suggest not that expensive or permanent.

It consists of placing sound absorbing materials over and around the speaker and about 6" (may vary) out from the speakers face.  This effectively blocks, or reduces the sound you don't hear directly, which is the ONLY important sound, if you want accuracy over mirage.

And wonderfully you can remove the materials and shove them in a closet until such a time as you wish to engage in High Performance Listening again.  The ultimate in simplicity.

I use a BIG Fluffy Beach Towel, with a piece of acoustical foam underneath to support the towel at the top and allow it to overhang the top section, and will effectively reduce ceiling reflections.  See photos for a clearer picture of the application.  I have also occasionally added a 3rd layer of a "Moving Pad or Blanket" over this contraption. (not shown, but the thickness and absorbency is HIGHLY effective.)

This will have virtually no effect on lower and bass frequencies, but is incredible above that.  And has a side benefit of blocking "side cabinet resonances" which are also a problem sonically with many speaker types.

Sorry this was so long, but to some it will be a paradigm shifting or radical concept..

Just remember, it will allow you to hear all the DIRECT sound from the drivers, and reduce the reflections at the source, instead of covering your walls with expensive, and not often pleasing panels.

In the end, it will move towards the purity of sound you achieve from headphones, but with sound staging and imaging intact, which will be more accurate and precise.

If you have questions, let me know, and if you try it, be prepared to have a realigning of what you thought yours system and speakers actually sounded like. And also please be aware, this may not work for your specific speaker brand or model, and this is where a little "Yankee ingenuity" may be needed to try it.

If one enjoys listening to their ROOM, then. . .never mind 🙂

John,

If my memory serves me correctly, your ‘wrap around ‘ system has evolved since that day Melody and I visited your home (11??) years ago. Your speakers seem to have grown, too.

If there were a way to get Melody to accept your room/speaker acoustics treatment, I would give it a try (but I know full well that she’d have a fit!).

Michael

[John Casler]

Hi Michael,

Oh yes, my old room was approaching anechoic at certain frequencies, which yielded the purest signal from the speakers I could get.  This was especially true, because my listening chair also was acoustically damped overhead, to the sides, and to the rear. further isolating the signal from the speakers for significant purity.  Sitting in that chamber with no music on, was as close as you could get to a "sonic black hole" in a domestic setting.

It certainly allowed me to hear my speakers, and very little (if any reflected sound/room sound)

But times have changed, and I too have a significant other to dance with aesthetically, and thus the "removable" device that damps a great amount of ceiling, side wall, and cabinet resonances, for when you want to enjoy what I call "High Performance Listening".

But, I hope you noticed that these treatments can be easily removed and thrown in the closet for everyday aesthetics.  I'm sure Melody would not restrict such temporary usage. 

Are they as good as the old audio neurotic craziness?  Not even close.

But, they are better (and cheaper) by far, than trying to place usually expensive, wall, ceiling, and floor devices and panels mounted all over your living room.  They are also superior to virtually any "electronic manipulations" via room correction systems.  But these DO NOT have much affect on BASS, so there is that.