[doug s.]

hi all,

while i think these amps & the mods vinnie does, are intriguing, i was wondering about having them set up to use lab-grade power supplies instead of batteries.  personally, i would want to opt for a lab-grade power supply instead of batteries.  as far as isolation goes, i have used hewlett packard lab grade power supplies before, & their performance is outstanding.  they are awailable for pennies on the dollar on ebay. i would be willing to forgo that nth degree of additional power line isolation that batteries may prowide, for the ability to leave the amps on all the time, & for boosting the power up to 14-15v, which supposedly makes the amps perform better...  

any thoughts?  vinnie, have ya ever compared a fully modded clari-t or teac w/batteries, to one set up on a lab-grade power supply outputting 15v?  (also, any comparisons to these and the sharp sd-ex111 would also be nice!   )

thanks,

doug s.

[Vinnie R.]

personally, i would want to opt for a lab-grade power supply instead of batteries. as far as isolation goes, i have used hewlett packard lab grade power supplies before, & their performance is outstanding. they are awailable for pennies on the dollar on ebay. i would be willing to forgo that nth degree of additional power line isolation that batteries may prowide, for the ability to leave the amps on all the time, & for boosting the power up to 14-15v, which supposedly makes the amps perform better...

any thoughts? vinnie, have ya ever compared a fully modded clari-t or teac w/batteries, to one set up on a lab-grade power supply outputting 15v? (also, any comparisons to these and the sharp sd-ex111 would also be nice!  )

Hi Doug,

I've never used a 'lab-grade' power supply for the Clari-T or Teac.  I have used very clean linear-regulated power supplies for both amps (make by a company called Acopian), and after a lot of listening and evaluation, I decided that 12V SLA battery power was the way to go sonically and I do not play on going back to AC power.  "Once the background noise goes black, you never go back!"  

The Teac runs off of 24V, not 12V.  I use two 12V SLAs in series to power it.  Two fully charged 12V SLAs provides approx 26V, and after about 10 hours of playback, the voltage drops to 24V and this is when I recommend charging.

Regarding using 14-15V, this is NOT recommended for the Clari-T TA2024), and the Clari-T will only be available with battery power.  It sounds like you don't like battery power because you want long play time between charges.  The custom Clari-T that Michael Lavorgna of 6moons recently reviewed can play for 24-hours between charges, and if that isn't long enough, a bigger battery is easy enough to use.   A big ol' separate enclosure can be used that can house a battery that can play for a week between charges if one wanted.  

However, as easy as I try make playing/charging using a simple ON/Charge switch (the charge is always plugged in), I can understand that battery power is not for everyone.  

Thanks for posting,

[JLM]

Vinnie,

Does leaving the Clari-T on without playing music drain the battery?

Someone around here had posted that while "idling" the amp wouldn't draw much juice.  

If that's the case, could I leave it on all day and just use it intermittently (for a total of say 5 hours)?

[Vinnie R.]

Vinnie,

Does leaving the Clari-T on without playing music drain the battery?

Someone around here had posted that while "idling" the amp wouldn't draw much juice.  

If that's the case, could I leave it on all day and just use it intermittently (for a total of say 5 hours)?

Hi JLM,

Yes, even when there is no music playing, the amp still draws current (idle current is approx 60mA).  When not in use, it is best to keep it charged, which is the best for the battery.

Regards,

[doug s.]

hi vinnie,

i know what the mfr of the chip says about the ta2024; this issue was talked about in an older thread.  but i also know that folks have run it w/up to 16v w/no adwerse effects.  (except better sound?)  it would have been interesting to get your findings w/the acopian supplies' woltage boosted a bit.

re; the teac, it's easy to find dc power supplies w/output >24v, so the same issues apply.

while i cannot tell you how to run yer biz, , i really don't see why it would be any more difficult to offer a cheaper wersion of yer gear sans battery(s), & yust equipped w/ a red & black power input connector for those so inclined.  due to issues related to those of us who may wanna tweek the voltages a bit, i can see that all warranty bets would be off.

another possibility would be, instead of having an on/charge switch, to yust leave the gear on all the time, & have an internal switch that kicks the charger on whenever needed, including if/when the gear is being used.

regards,

doug s.

[Occam]

hi vinnie ...re; the teac, it's easy to find dc power supplies w/output >24v, so the same issues apply.
while i cannot tell you how to run yer biz, , i really don't see why it would be any more difficult to offer a cheaper wersion of yer gear sans battery(s), & yust equipped w/ a red & black power input connector for those so inclined.  ...

Doug - I don't think you're aware of the complexity of implementing a wall connected ps that compares to a properly implemented SLA off grid ps. You simply cannot assume that a well executed regulated supply can addresses those issues. Discrete, shunt, Lm338, LT1086... it doesn't matter, it simply does not address the issues of leakage currents (noise and hum) and the fact our mains are crap. And while those isssues can be addressed somewhat via powerconditioning/balancing,  Vinnie's approach, for those components he mods, is simply the most economical, technically efficient route.
While I think I could come close to a SLA off grid supply, with both balancing/conditioning and well executed regulated supply, at the end I'd have to ask, "Why bother?, I just spent 3X as much in components alone."

I don't mean to discourage you from trying your Lab supply (though I don't know exactly what your use of the term 'lab' means nor do I think you should assume that while it might be optimal for its 'lab' use, its characteristics, both objective and subjective are appropriate as an ps supply for a switching amp), and can only suggest you try it. When you find that doesn't cut it in direct comparison to an optimized SLA powered version of the same amp, power your supply with a Felicia (its the cheapest route to get you there), and it might get closer, but a battery and a charger seems a bit more direct. Horses for courses.
FWIW

[Gordy]

"another possibility would be, instead of having an on/charge switch, to yust leave the gear on all the time, & have an internal switch that kicks the charger on whenever needed, including if/when the gear is being used."

Hi Doug,  probably just a personal thing, but I would find that really rude     It's very possible to specify a larger sized battery for longer run times, which is what I did when Vinnie and I were discussing the possibility of moding my P3A dac with a battery ps.  The P3A will run an easy 10 hrs. before needing a charge and sounds absolutely gorgeous with much greater detail due to the apparent total silence of the batteries. An added benefit is the highs, which are now as smooth as I've heard from digital in my system. The craftsmanship is equally impressive, bty...

One last comment, I had the auto recharge feature in the battery packs I rewired for +/- 24v to drive some 3886 chip amps.  Ended up bypassing it and the current limiter to get what I needed and really don't miss it as the amps will run for 24 hrs before reaching 23ish volts, which is still 2v higher than the preset recharge voltage.  Even with the chips bridged I'm getting about 14-15 hrs. out of 'em!  I guess what I'm trying to say is that with properly sized batteries (read largish/7ah) recharging just isn't an issue for me, it's simply an overnight thing.

[Dmason]

Performance compromised by way of battery power?

DougS,

With respect, you are behind the curve on that one, and it sounds like your interest has no basis in actual experience with this stuff properly implemented with battery power. Compromised performance is not something currently being thought about by CLariT amp owners.    

Maybe those deals on eBay are just too tasty to ignore.    I acknowledge your keen interest in leaving your "gear" on all the time, but i would sooner improve the sound and turn things, "off."

My thinking: why use AC when now you don't need to.

My Observation: even the best power conditioning allows stray AC into the works, and I can easily hear it. And, it sucks.

My goal: Solar charged, battery powered, no noise, environmentally neutral-impact, self-sustaining World Class sound system.

eBay Factor=Zero.

[doug s.]

i guess some folks' power grids are dirtier than others.  typical specs for these types of power supplies are seen here:

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5988-7834EN.pdf

while it's true i haven't experienced battery powered gear, to be honest, i really haven't a had an overwhelming desire to do so, especially for amps.  for lower-power requirement source gear, such as dacs, fono stages, etc, i am more open...

w/dirt-cheap used isolation transformers & quality dc power supplies, plus kits like the felicia, etc awailable, i don't necessarily think batteries are the easiest/cheapest/best solution.  mebbe for some, w/exceptionally poor power enwironments.  "horses for courses" certainly applies!  

doug s.

[Dmason]

Electrically, I am at the Ends Of The Earth. The AC is a sewer, rendering my AC system unlistenable, during the day. As I have stated, there is a practical consideration.

As for the rest, there seems to be am imbalance in however you have reached conclusions on your own choices, if you have not explored the alternatives. How can you reach scientific Conclusions without Observation?

"Horses For Courses" ...preferences are usually based on direct experiences. I suggest your preferences are emotively based. A sign of A++ excellent psychological health, and lack of scientific inclination.   Just kidding, Doug. You rip.

[Vinnie R.]

Electrically, I am at the Ends Of The Earth. The AC is a sewer, rendering my AC system unlistenable, during the day. As I have stated, there is a practical consideration.

As for the rest, there seems to be am imbalance in however you have reached conclusions on your own choices, if you have not explored the alternatives. How can you reach scientific Conclusions without Observation?

"Horses For Courses" ...preferences are usually based on direct experiences. I suggest your preferences are emotively ba ...

"If AC were water, then your components are drinking from a sewer." -- Dmason  

[doug s.]

Electrically, I am at the Ends Of The Earth. The AC is a sewer, rendering my AC system unlistenable, during the day. As I have stated, there is a practical consideration.

As for the rest, there seems to be am imbalance in however you have reached conclusions on your own choices, if you have not explored the alternatives. How can you reach scientific Conclusions without Observation?

"Horses For Courses" ...preferences are usually based on direct experiences. I suggest your preferences are emotively based. A sign of A++ excellent psychological health, and lack of scientific inclination. icon_mrgreen.gif Just kidding, Doug. You rip.

hey, i make no bones about my lack of battery powered experience.  at some point, i may do direct a-b, but since it will likely inwolve a large cash outlay; it prolly ain't gonna happen anytime soon.    

re: "horses for courses", i was simply referring to the fact that i can listen most anytime, 24-7, & get great sound, w/simple iso trannies - i haven't yet even stepped up to balanced power, tho this may come soon, as finances allow.  of course yure right - all scientific methodology has been tossed directly out the window here!  but, that's why i started this thread - i was looking for any feedback from someone who may have compared.  seems only vinnie has, & he preferred batteries.  that's a start!  

i am sure if i had sewer-grade ac, i would be more seriously interested in battery powered stereo gear.  

regards,

doug s.

[Dmason]

I think it warrants mention that Red Wine Audio components run on batteries. I "suspect" this is the direction Vinnie plans to steer the company in, at least this seems to be a pattern I am vaguely detecting...

 In home audio, I have noticed an abundance of choices for those who prefer to power components by AC, --there seem to be good alternatives to the 'performance limitations' of battery power, and at various price points as well. One does not need to spend large green to obtain AC powered appliances.

A medical grade AC regenerator with adjustable Voltage/Cycle would run about ------->$25,000 though, (not available on eBay) and might drop the noise floor into the battery neighborhood, quadruple your electricity bill, and...having had the long term use of one, or, ...use batteries,  that is....  

[maxwalrath]

doug, I have a sonic impact that I've been meaning to give to a friend for a while. If you'd like I could send it your way so long as you send it back in a couple of weeks. It was a lot quieter than anything I've heard besides my clari-T while costing 1/50 the retail price of gear previously in my system. I don't have an SLA, but with $4 worth of batteries from radio shack it still does many things right. It didn't beat out the more expensive gear in my system, but it gave me a hint of what the Clari-T would be all about - which then did beat out more expensive gear.

Let me know if you want to give it a try...

[Dmason]

I just re-read this thread and any advocacy of AC use, "lab" grade this or that, the concept of "clean AC" in a given area,.... improvements made by retrograde bandaid approaches whose economic feasibility is increased by pennies on the dollar availability, is missing the point,  the boat, Behind The Curve Of History---- the whole thing, this whole thing is fucking stupid, UNLESS, you are building power leads of solid gold ingots directly to the isolated, shielded, vacuum-suspended generator being run off the Slowpoke Breeder Reactor you built in your backyard, because you are going into the Discount Isotope business. There. Something even stupider. But wait! Then you find a rotten bearing race created a flat spot on that new $400,000 generator and have to send it back to Barber Turbine, because your AC SUCKS!! While you wait for the turbine to be rebuilt, the Heavy Water boys at the AEC in Ottawa, the only outfit licensed by the UN to sell and service H3O "flea powered" breeder reactors want you to stroke them a check for a quarter Mil to fly their engineers down to idle down your unit, and you have already spent $25,000 on the only REAL clean AC power supply for big amplifiers, just to tide you over,  a medical grade power regenerator. That is IF they will sell you one, assuming you are not operating a hospital or operating theater on the side.

Or you can use nice clean, cheap 12V SLA w/ Ultra Low ESR, and   groove.

[maxwalrath]

yep. I remember reading the argument for battery systems years ago, when I was 15 or so with no gear, and just reading up on stereo systems. The argument made perfect sense, but it was way out of my minimum wage earning price range.

It isn't any more thankfully. No reason not to try it.

[doug s.]

I just re-read this thread and any advocacy of AC use, "lab" grade this or that, the concept of "clean AC" in a given area,.... improvements made by retrograde bandaid approaches whose economic feasibility is increased by pennies on the dollar availability, is missing the point, the boat, Behind The Curve Of History---- the whole thing, this whole thing is fucking stupid, UNLESS, you are building power leads of solid gold ingots directly to the isolated, shielded, vacuum-suspended generator being run off the Slowpoke Breeder Reactor you built in your backyard, because you are going into the Discount Isotope business. There. Something even stupider. But wait! Then you find a rotten bearing race created a flat spot on that new $400,000 generator and have to send it back to Barber Turbine, because your AC SUCKS!! While you wait for the turbine to be rebuilt, the Heavy Water boys at the AEC in Ottawa, the only outfit licensed by the UN to sell and service H3O "flea powered" breeder reactors want you to stroke them a check for a quarter Mil to fly their engineers down to idle down your unit, and you have already spent $25,000 on the only REAL clean AC power supply for big amplifiers, just to tide you over, a medical grade power regenerator. That is IF they will sell you one, assuming you are not operating a hospital or operating theater on the side.

Or you can use nice clean, cheap 12V SLA w/ Ultra Low ESR, and icon_mrgreen.gif groove.

uh, i tink ya mite be overstating the perils of ac power, & the costs of cleaning it up.  mebbe yust a tad-bit, anyways...  

in fact, there's some folk that actually *prefer* ac power when used w/a similar amp such as the clari-t:

http://www.41hz.com/main.aspx?pageID=105

here's a comment from that site, taken from its forum site:

"Compared to a modded T-amp (extra supply capacitance; better input caps) the AMP3 installed with ac power is a winner by a huge margin. The Amp3's clarity is different -- it's like viewing a 8-12 megapixel image shot with a quality lens. Everything's clear and natural, with nothing sticks out."

http://www.41hz.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=5

now don't get me wrong; it's clear that the "modded t-amp" isn't vinnie's clari-t.  but it's also clear that there's more than one way to skin a cat.  or to power an amp.  

ymmv,

doug s.

[Dmason]

Observations are going to change from person to person for a variety of reasons, mainly morphological really, things like sinus resonances, inherent bandwidth sensitivity, and then personal experiences, comparison, etc. I could go on and on to make the point that it is sooo entirely subjective that there is little point in drawing conclusions based on such hearsay. All comes down to personal preferences. Yes, I enjoyed the sound I got by using a borrowed, $25,000 AC regenerator for my home stereo, but having gotten used to it, once it went back, no matter what I did, at the end of the day, AC still sucked. It got in there. Electrical sewer water, in my ears.

BUT:  None of it changes the FACT that AC sucks, or there wouldnt be such a product offering in the power conditioning realm. Come to think of it, none of it changes the fact that the Red Wine stuff is enjoying near universal approbation, because it doesnt suck, and its power supply type has something to do with it. Hint hint..

Why, of all the product lines out there would you pick about the only one building out a line with exclusively battery powered components, to suggest a retrograde, retrofit, for AC power? Isn't this abit like carrying coals to Newcastle? Inquiring minds want to know. Is this perhaps one of those "different" kinds of threads I read about from time to time? The instinctive contrarian in the barrel... just curious.

[doug s.]

...Why, of all the product lines out there would you pick about the only one building out a line with exclusively battery powered components, to suggest a retrograde, retrofit, for AC power? Isn't this abit like carrying coals to Newcastle? Inquiring minds want to know. Is this perhaps one of those "different" kinds of threads I read about from time to time? The instinctive contrarian in the barrel... just curious....

cuz, imo, ac power does *not* suck. at least not for most folk, most of the time.     and what little amount of suckitude is there, can usually be removed cheaply.  at least that's been my experience.  when i can get the noise floor in my gear so low that i can hear a slack-key guitarist breathing, & moving in his chair, well then, it's low enuff for me.  or at least low enuff that i would start wanting to address *other* possible improvements - like running 12v chip-amps at 15v, 24v chip-amps at 28v, etc., for improved dynamics...    ya know - get overall sound that's *better* than can be had w/dc power...  

as you said, re: folks' different observations based upon sinuses, experiences, etc. - i think it's the battery-powered-gear contingincy that is in fact the in the odd man out; the "instinctive contrarian in the barrel", as ya so poetically describe it.    if ac power sucked so bad as you say, battery powered gear would in fact be the *rule* in the hi-end, not the tiny exception.  

as for why i would ask about what you consider to be a retrograde retrofit, well i think there's a lot to be said for a lot of what vinnie is doing.  but i don't see the battery power part as being the be-all end-all to it.  i don't see anything at all "retrograde" about using ac power to drive a dc power supply.  in fact, i think better overall results might be able to be obtained w/clean ac-based dc power.  as well as being more user-friendly.  of course, it may in fact not be as *clean* as battery power.  but, i think it may bring other possibly more beneficial things to the table.  it's all about compromises & choices, after all.  

as i said - ymmv,

doug s.

[JeffB]

Jeff Rowland preamplifiers and amplifiers can all use either an AC or DC power supply.  Their DC power supplies use SLC(Sealed Led Calcium) batteries.  Vinnie, perhaps you should look into Sealed Led Calcium batteries.

At one point in the past I thought the Jeff Rowland's website said something about DC power producing more detail, but AC power producing more dynamics.  I went to the Jeff Rowland website to confirm this, and I can't find any comparisons between their AC and DC supplies.

At the bottom right of this page are links to information about Rowland DC supplies.  The link pretty much makes out DC power to be the ultimate.
http://www.jeffrowland.com/products.htm

However, I am pretty tired of crappy information on websites.  A typical website of say an amplifier designer will list 4 amps.  Each amp will be stated as the ultimate.  They will have names like "The Ultimate", "The Reference", "The Magnificent", "The Supreme".  Obviously they were all designed to a price point, and one group is better than the next, but you can never figure it out from the website.  So, I don't know what to make of the comments on the Rowland page.