[Jon L]

This is crazy stuff  The real Dragon costs $12,000/m, about 30x the clone in photo. Xangsane SP-9001Ag uses thin rectangular silver ribbons, but I'm not sure if it's a clone of something else.

The Xangsane is my reference for extreme fine detail and refined neutrality. It's the cable that reminds me of pure electrostat speakers, such as the original Martin Logan CLSIIz and some of the Soundlabs. When the recording is first-rate and system tweaked to synergize well, there's nothing much else out there that will deliver that see-through transparency and eerie, spooky soundscape. Unfortunately, when recordings or systems are not optimized, especially if they don't have any surplus girth or warmth, things can go sideways.

The "Dragon" basically sounds like the polar opposite of Xangsane. It's pretty far from dead neutral but in a good way since it injects gobs of density, richness, and power into voices and bass. Xangsane builds sound from treble/upper-midrange down while Dragon builds sound from ground up, sounding especially rewarding when chesty male vocals or bassy music is played loud. Some will complain the treble is a bit soft and not ultra-incisive, which is true but if adjustments are made elsewhere, the total sound can be addictively enjoyable and forgiving. In the past, I have had other cables with battery bias system and usually preferred them with the battery disconnected, finding the battery to soften and liquify the sound too much, e.g. Omika Mikro and Aural Thrills. Dragon's battery also softens and liquifies the sound, but when battery is disconnected, I found the sound not as compelling, becoming a bit brighter and rougher texturally while losing the gorgeous billowy atmosphere.

The "Odin" sounds closer to Dragon than Xangsane but without quite the overt richness and prettiness. Odin works quite well, presenting music in a matter-of-fact way without obviously strange colorations or quirks. Dynamics and bass are powerful and driving, without dips or holes in frequency response. It just lacks the last ounce of extreme fine-detailing of the Xangsane and that eerie billowiness of Dragon's battery bias. Still, it's a bargain for the performance even compared to the price of Dragon.

[mick wolfe]

You're not alone. A few friends and myself have experimented with these "AliExpress" cables for years. It's a hit and miss experience, but when you discover a hit, the hunt is worth it. Hits I've found are the Valhalla 2 speaker cable and the Odin Gold power cable.(used on source components)    In fact one friend replaced an entire loom of very pricy cables with a variety of AliExpress cables. So there's treasures to be found if you're willing to roll the dice.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I have had good luck with a XangSang silver usb cable.  It is a clone of the WW Platinum, a $600 cable.  It gives me 90% of my Platinum for $100 and it is built like a tank.

[mr_bill]

Mick, Jon or Larry, could you please recommend a web link or store name for the xangsane or the valhalla 2? 

I'm guessing ali express has a lot of sellers and I would want to make sure I get a reputable product.
Thanks!

[Stercom]

Just a friendly reminder if you decide to buy one of these cables you most likely will have to pay a tariff regardless of what the ad in AliExpress says. I recently purchased a $135 linear power supply from AliExpress and DHL wanted a $34 tariff (25%) before they would deliver it. Literally got notice of the tariff the day before it was supposed to be delivered.

[DaveC113]

I'd consider the ethics involved with buying counterfeit products. I don't think it's justifiable. 

[abd1]

I also question the ethics of selling a pair of 1m XLR cables for $12,000. I just got my daughter a used car for $8000. Yet, somehow that cable is worth more and that's ethical? Don't get me wrong, as an audiophile, in terms of justifying cost and expense, is any of this ethical? BTW, I own multiple "NOT" Audioquest Dragon power cables, RCA's, speaker cables, and even the "NOT" Dragon HDMI, and they sound great. I also own non-branded direct from China pure silver USB, ethernet, and other various cables and they have performed way way above what I paid for them. And, I've had big brand cables (including authentic AQs) costing over $2000 a set msrp, never again.

Oh, and BTW, I also own 2 pairs of Zenwave XLR cables that I've picked up over the years and I'll never sell those. Fantastic cables.

[Jon L]

I'd consider the ethics involved with buying counterfeit products. I don't think it's justifiable. 

While I see your point, especially when it comes to genuine high-quality U.S. based cable companies with valuable IP and premium material, Audioquest sells the Dragon for $12,000/m made in China/Taiwan, and Nordost sells their current Odin at $22,000/m (at which point, I simply don't even care where it's made). 

I feel this is extremely offensive and don't feel bad about having fun with the clones at 30-60X less price.  If their products are so superior to deserve these prices, they should have nothing to fear about these inferior clones, which presumably should sound ludicrously worse..   

[mr_bill]

Mick, Jon or Larry, could you please recommend a web link or store name for the xangsane or the valhalla 2? 

I'm guessing ali express has a lot of sellers and I would want to make sure I get a reputable product.
Thanks!

If one of you could let me know what Ali store you bought these from I’d appreciate it. 👆🏼
You could pm me too. Thanks

[sebrof]

They offer a cable for $12K and someone agrees to the price. Of course that is ethical.

[wushuliu]

I got the Dragon speaker cable from Audioson on AliExpress and I love it. I read somewhere Audioson was adamant theirs is all silver and not silver-plated. Regardless I don't detect any of the schizophrenic warmth/sizzle I usually associate with silver-plated wire. That said I don't have experience with expensive speaker cables, I always make my own, albeit from 'exotic' material like VH-Audio Airlol or PC-OCC, etc. The Dragon is better than anything I've whipped up and certainly well worth the $450.

The ethical argument is dead. It's a 20th century mindset. A $30K speaker cable isn't in danger of losing sales to a $450 'knockoff' from the same factory.  Audioquest gave up certain rights when they chose to do business w/ China. This is how China views business - imitate, copy, replicate for less and on demand - and we are awash in it. Literally. And there is no IP debate to be had. Those days are gone. We can't talk about ethics while typing on a device that is spying on us and sharing every single thing you do or say to the highest bidder in an ecosystem that is scraping my words right now to feed AI models without consent. I'd be more concerned about any photos I have sitting on cloud storage or Google Photos etc. before whether or not I'm hurting Audioquest's feelings.

Just enjoy the music.

[Phil A]

I don't have a problem with someone making a clone.  However, that being said, it is recognizable international law standards that a brand name belongs to a company.  If they want to copy something, that's fine, but they should change the names.  Many moons ago Bose sued Thiel as Thiel had a model 2.2.  So Thiel changed it to '22.'  Yes I realize that most (if not all) knowledgeable people know what they are buying.  They should respect the names (like) Nordost and Odin when they label products.  The cables on Ali Express are excellent for the money as I've heard them.

[abd1]

I do agree with removing the names. I'd actually prefer it. I'm not trying to pass the cables off as authentics and whenever someone is over and asks about my cables I'm quick to say they're the "Not" AQ cables from China.

[Stercom]

I wouldn't have an ethical problem buying these cables since its safe to assume Audioquest and Nordost know exactly where and how these China knock-offs are being made (probably one of their own suppliers) but have made a business decision to not enforce their Trademark and Patients. They could work with US Customs or sue these companies but, as Rolex, Cartier, Lois Vuitton, Coach, etc know, it's very expensive to track and stop these shipments and the Chinese government basically doesn't help. I doubt it's cutting into their sales unless the ultra-rich knowingly start buying fakes or their authorized dealers knowingly start selling fakes. Then they would have to do something about it.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Mick, Jon or Larry, could you please recommend a web link or store name for the xangsane or the valhalla 2? 

I'm guessing ali express has a lot of sellers and I would want to make sure I get a reputable product.
Thanks!

Here you go-

https://www.xangsaneaudiocable.com/

[mr_bill]

Here you go-

https://www.xangsaneaudiocable.com/

Thank you!

[DaveC113]

Of course the counterfeit products don't compete with the genuine products and I agree prices are absurd. However, please remember the market determines what is offered and there are some markets where the higher the price the better. In fact, if you don't offer some flagship product at sky-high prices you'll be seen as inferior.

Manufacturers don't write the rules, the market is determined by the BUYERS.

Now, instead of buying look-alike counterfeit products that you'll have to do mental gymnastics to justify ethically... and I can tell you it's NOT moral, it's actually ILLEGAL and there's a reason for that. And to say that ethics and morals expire is nuts. That is truly delusional thinking. The other option is NOT buying the real thing, it's buying a product that fits your budget from folks who aren't ethically compromised, and maybe even from folks who support America. I realize this isn't possible with all products, but often it is. As fas as cables... it is. You can buy Blue Jeans or whatever instead of fake cables made with Chinesium conductors.

But hey, you do you. Most of my business comes from Americans and I will buy American and support those folks who support me whenever possible.

[wushuliu]

Manufacturers don't write the rules, the market is determined by the BUYERS.

Now, instead of buying look-alike counterfeit products that you'll have to do mental gymnastics to justify ethically.

Talking about buying American these days and using the phrase 'mental gymnastics to justify ethically' in the same breath is... a choice.

Taking a stand against the .000000000000001% of people in this hobby who are buying knock-off cables off AliExpress is a flex on the internet. IRL, no one cares.

The 'morals expire' riposte elides the very clear and pointed context in which my comment was made. You want to deflect/distract from that as not being important, well... you do you.

[DaveC113]

Talking about buying American these days and using the phrase 'mental gymnastics to justify ethically' in the same breath is... a choice.

I have no clue what you're trying to imply here? Buying American isn't ethical? Just say what you want to say without all the obfuscation.

Taking a stand against the .000000000000001% of people in this hobby who are buying knock-off cables off AliExpress is a flex on the internet. IRL, no one cares.

You don't care. You don't speak for anyone but you.

If you think I'm taking a stand to look good on the internet, that seems like a personal attack that is against the rules on this site. You're just trying to obfuscate once again, but we can all see though your BS. See, I can say what I want plainly, it's not that hard. You should try it, you'll seem less horrible.

The 'morals expire' riposte elides the very clear and pointed context in which my comment was made. You want to deflect/distract from that as not being important, well... you do you.

Yes, the thought you have an expiration date on morals and ethics is telling. Everyone can see though that BS too. You're doing it to justify the fact you're buying stuff from LITERAL CRIMINALS. You are supporting a criminal enterprise and you want to feel better about yourself, so you attack me. That is just horrible.

------------

Here's the plain facts, no double talk and no obfuscation: If you buy counterfeit items you are supporting criminals and you have absolutely no ethical defense, you have no way of justifying it. It's against the law, and there's a reason for counterfeiting being against the law I won't get into because I can't take the time, but you can google it.

Otherwise, buy from legitimate companies who are NOT criminals. Your choice. This is a very simple black and white issue. Very few things in this world are black and white, we are lucky this is one of them, it makes things easy.

[toocool4]

Been reading this thread, it’s interesting how everyone sees things differently.

I personally would not buy counterfeit goods, but also would not buy goods I feel are over priced for what they are. I would just buy an original something in my price range and not something that pretends to be something it’s not.