[Letitroll98]

Perhaps we might be able to turn down the temperature here gentlemen.  We were doing fine discussing the issues, please stay away from making it personal, thanks.

The counterfeit designation relates to the brand name and any proprietary patented process or construction.  I do not know if the name "Odin" can be or is trademarked for audio cables or the DBS bias system can be or is patented, but if they are, using them is counterfeit.  On the website provided I saw none of that.  I did see cables that looked like Nordost cables, but no branding as such.  That's not illegal and not immoral.  Another way of saying it is that knockoff cables have always been with us and are ethical to purchase.  Flat out counterfeits, something with Audioquest on the cable and a DBS bias box not made by that company, is illegal and immoral.

[ric]

Interesting topic because what started out as an "innocent" post about how knock off cables sound, turned into a moral ethical problem which condemns the buying of said knock offs.
So you're not rich, and you're curious what the expensive cable sounds like and you knowingly buy a knock off cable, does that make you immoral, unethical or criminal?
What if you UNknowingly buy what you think is the real deal, say on Ebay and you find out it's a cheap knock off--most of the time I think we say, buyer beware, and if it sounds too good to be true, and there are protection policies in place for the naive consumer, but here the tables are turned.
Personally, I don't have a problem with someone else's decision. A court may ask "what are the damages that are being done? Is the company losing money because of name infringement? Shouldn't THEY seek damages? And how much money do they lose paying attorneys vs not dealing with it?
I am guilty of building knockoffs for my self. I refuse to pay big bucks for Shakti Hallographs so I built my own. I have bought High Fidelity Cables products and then experimented with DIY magnets in the signal path. I created my own bass traps and tried many DIY isolation devices. I am making a decision not to sell any DIY for profit, that is the line I draw. Not too long ago someone had advertised their knock off Shakti Hallographs on some audio for sale website and it did not sit well with me, but that is my own ethical/moral/legal judgement.
   So, if someone buys a knockoff Rolex, do they care about how accurate it keeps time? Do they think it will give them 80% of what the real Rolex will? No. I'm assuming it's to impress. Here, I'm assuming these knock offs are about the sound, and I'm all for that regardless of the implications discussed here.

[Jeff_From_Michigan]

Been reading this thread, it’s interesting how everyone sees things differently.

I personally would not buy counterfeit goods, but also would not buy goods I feel are over priced for what they are. I would just buy an original something in my price range and not something that pretends to be something it’s not.

Well said!

[nrenter]

I always find these threads interesting…until the morality police show up. I’m not saying that I agree with them or do not agree with them, but I will say it’s called “thread crapping”. If you want to start a thread about the morality of Chinese clones, then be my guest. I was truly interested in the topic at hand and, once again, it devolved into morality and moral relativity. The arguments back and forth are always the same. Temperatures rise. Individual moral high grounds are stood. No one changes anyone’s minds. The willingness to actually engage in discourse about the topic at hand is chilled. A common tactic these days. Unfortunate.

[DaveC113]

The counterfeit designation relates to the brand name and any proprietary patented process or construction.  I do not know if the name "Odin" can be or is trademarked for audio cables or the DBS bias system can be or is patented, but if they are, using them is counterfeit.  On the website provided I saw none of that.  I did see cables that looked like Nordost cables, but no branding as such.  That's not illegal and not immoral.  Another way of saying it is that knockoff cables have always been with us and are ethical to purchase.  Flat out counterfeits, something with Audioquest on the cable and a DBS bias box not made by that company, is illegal and immoral.

This is false. If your product resembles another closely, it is illegal no matter what name is on it. This has been litigated to death with plenty of precedents to look up if you're interested.

-----------

Sorry to be "the morality police", but should this forum be a place to discuss how to literally break the law by buying counterfeit products? IMO, absolutely not. Go elsewhere. This is very simple, black and white. It's been addressed by law. If you feel like the law doesn't apply to you, then you're someone I don't want to associate with.

Also, just to be clear, when you buy counterfeit, it's not the same product and won't sound the same. It just looks similar. And, you're supporting criminals and the Chinese Communist Party instead of honest Americans.

I would agree it's unfortunate these threads come up, it should be against TOU of any forum to discuss illegal acts, and people should know better than to buy from criminals, but here we are. 

[Mike B.]

Interesting thread. Let me add my 2 cents about regulations in China compared to western consumer protections. My comments are from a decade back when I still owned Acme Audio. I had a  bad transaction over manufacturing a product there. All my efforts to locate any form of agency that dealt with my complaint were futile. My guess is attempts to stop counterfeit products would be far more challenging there.
 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

This is false. If your product resembles another closely, it is illegal no matter what name is on it. This has been litigated to death with plenty of precedents to look up if you're interested.

-----------

Sorry to be "the morality police", but should this forum be a place to discuss how to literally break the law by buying counterfeit products? IMO, absolutely not. Go elsewhere. This is very simple, black and white. It's been addressed by law. If you feel like the law doesn't apply to you, then you're someone I don't want to associate with.

Also, just to be clear, when you buy counterfeit, it's not the same product and won't sound the same. It just looks similar. And, you're supporting criminals and the Chinese Communist Party instead of honest Americans.

I would agree it's unfortunate these threads come up, it should be against TOU of any forum to discuss illegal acts, and people should know better than to buy from criminals, but here we are.

It happens here too.  B&K copied a Van Alstine design and Frank was livid about it.

[nrenter]

Sorry to be "the morality police", but should this forum be a place to discuss how to literally break the law by buying counterfeit products? IMO, absolutely not. Go elsewhere. This is very simple, black and white. It's been addressed by law. If you feel like the law doesn't apply to you, then you're someone I don't want to associate with.

Also, just to be clear, when you buy counterfeit, it's not the same product and won't sound the same. It just looks similar. And, you're supporting criminals and the Chinese Communist Party instead of honest Americans.

I would agree it's unfortunate these threads come up, it should be against TOU of any forum to discuss illegal acts, and people should know better than to buy from criminals, but here we are.

Actually, it’s not black and white, but you are correct that it has been addressed by the law: It’s not usually a crime for an individual to buy counterfeit cables for personal use, even knowing they’re fake. It is illegal to traffic, import with intent to distribute, or sell counterfeit goods. Yes, by definition counterfeit means it is not the same product and may not sound the same. And you’re probably supporting the communist party when you buy legitimate cables, as the manufacturing is probably done in China.

[Letitroll98]

This is false. If your product resembles another closely, it is illegal no matter what name is on it. This has been litigated to death with plenty of precedents to look up if you're interested.

.
No, this is demonstrably incorrect.  The key factor is the process or product being patented and the patent violation being judged a copy of the proprietary property.  AVA did not prevail against B&K for copying Frank's circuit design because he didn't spend the money to acquire a patent.  Monster Cable did not prevail against Audioquest in their suit against the DBS bias system being a copy of their BSC bias system because Audioquest proved it was materially different even though they were both audio cable electrical bias systems and Audioquest was subsequently granted their pending patent.

The issue we're having is one of definition.  Counterfeit vs Knockoff and Patent vs Trademark.  If you put the name Audioquest on on your cable you've violated their Trademark, if it has a battery system that applies a bias current to the dialectic then you've violated their patent.  Both are counterfeit and illegal, we shouldn't support illegal actions.  On the other hand it you buy some RGR Cables (Really Good Ribbon) from China that resemble some Nordost designs that's a knockoff and not a criminal act.  Ribbon cables are in every computer ever made, they're not proprietary in any way.  You can even say sounds as good as the name brand in your advertising blurbs.  In the link I clicked on here there were cables that looked very similar to some name brands, but there were no trademark violations and nothing has a battery bias system.  In the OP that doesn't appear to be the case, he was describing Audioquest Dragon copies with a bias system, unless I misinterpreted.  That's counterfeit.