[jmimac351]

And then, there's Mundorf. 

I went ahead and reached out to Tony Gee for any ideas about the large caps, and what cap he thought would be best for the 56uF value "sound quality" cap.  Tony mentioned the Jantzen Audio Cross Caps and the Mundorf MCap EVO (less economical, but compact and good) for the big cap values needed.

For the 56uF "sound quality" woofer spot, he likes the Duelund CAST-PP - not surprising.  I know Tony likes Duelund and I do too.  I may still reach out to Frederik directly and ask if there's any way he can "work in" some 56uF when the machine is setup to be able to make that value.  Who knows. Well, we'll see.   

Mundorf can work... there connecting this dot.  Dynaudio uses all Mundorf MCap EVO Oil in their Dynaudio Heritage Special - as speaker I bet I'd LOVE.  Tony Gee also thinks very high of those caps. 

PLUS, they are available in large sizes to eliminate the 500uF electrolytic, and it also comes in a 56uF - so no jumping thru hoops to make that value. 

Probably go ahead with Mundorf resistors as well. Then, bypass all caps with copper foil bypass caps.  I think that could be a GREAT crossover.

There are so many ways to do it with great parts, and the Sonicaps with copper foil could be plenty good - as it is!   

If I didn't like speakers with Danny's hands on them, I would probably have a pair of Dynaudio Heritage Special - and still may yet.  I think they are doing it right and I notice stuff like that, I guess. 

[nlitworld]

Holy crap Jim, are you building speakers or looking at competing against PartsConnexion?  Glad things are moving forward on your build. Also 8uf caps are readily available, but you'll have a small mountain and small fortune getting to 56.

-Lloyd

[fre11111]

I think I am going to end up with 2 examples of the crossover for this speaker. 

Starter
Tweeter
Likely have the Sonicaps from Danny and I'll bypass with Duelund .1uF CAST-PIO copper foil on each Sonicap in the tweeter network. Alternatively, could very easily have Duelund CAST-PP.  I still own a pair of 15uF in CAST-PP, and need 2x 6.8uF - readily available.    I know of no other Poly caps worth playing with given how good the Sonicap is with CAST-PIO bypass, and the Duelund is Duelund... I can't go wrong either way.

Woofer
I am working on custom values in 3x 185uF which will eliminate the 500uF electrolytic and the 56uF bypass.  AND, I can also get a 56uF from this same US vendor.  These caps should be a VERY suitable match for Sonicap, in particular.  We will see how this works out, and I really hope it does.

Inductors
I will set aside the copper foil Danny sent me and use air core inductors with the Sonicap / Duelund Poly setup.  That will offer GREAT sound, no doubt. 

Long Term Crossover
Full of CAST-PIO 100v copper foil, or Jupiter 100v Cooper foil. Goertz copper foil inductors from Danny.  Path Resistors.  Duelund CAST-PIO copper or Jupiter Vitamin Q silver bypass. Attempt sort brand of copper foil on the 56uF value on woofers.  Likely KEEP the custom titles of 185uF caps. 

Right now, that's the plan and I hope to get some things rolling on the big caps this week.

So, since I need some air core inductors, it was long past time I figure out how much junk I have...Woah Daddy... what the... how did this happen??? 

Well, I guess I got it bad. 

YOU ARE NOT ALONE...  

  I love it!

[tremrej65]

I love it!

Fred,
It looks like a big project might be coming your way...
I'm anxious to see the end result!

[fre11111]

Fred,
It looks like a big project might be coming your way...
I'm anxious to see the end result!

I am trying to calm down Jim. I never knew he had that much inventory

[jmimac351]

I am trying to calm down Jim. I never knew he had that much inventory

He says while knowing he is the #1 corrupting influence...

Besides, I don't understand what the hoopla is about.  Those are just parts for a pair of Klipsch bookshelf speakers I picked up.

[jmimac351]

For the 500uf bundle I'd probably string together 10 of these - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/duelund/50uf-250vdc-duelund-cast-pp-polypropylene-capacitors.html

For the 56uF I'd probably bundle 3 of 10uF's and a pair of 8uF's.  I 'think' they should be close enough in value to not cause any phase issues, but double check with Danny.

The other day I did ask Danny about a 50uF and 5.6uF (because that is what I could get in Duelund CAST-PP) - just in case. 

No go.

If Duelund made a 27uF that I could double to 54uF, I would probably do all Duelund CAST-PP.  If they even made an 18uF, I could do it.  Because not enough workable values exist for what I need, no sale on all of those big value caps, no sale on CAST-PIO copper foil either - doin't need to chase it. 

The good news is that is probably for the best anyway. I think I have managed to make more luck by making more friends. 

For copper foil, I will end up using Jupiter and / or... another US capacitor manufacturer who also makes copper foil caps, and isn't top of mind for many. 

For the line arrays, I think I have in place a Full Custom setup worked out for cap values that gets rid of the electrolytic, blend well with the Sonicaps I already own, are made right here in the USA - and I don't have to buy 250 of them to even consider it or have a conversation. 

That same US manufacturer is making custom 185uF and 56uF caps for me - right now.  No "setup fee", no "250 minimum"... when the material needed to make the values I need is in the machine running off another value, the values I need get worked in - no big deal.  Do you have to wait?  Maybe, but at least I can get them.  I have patience. 

The JB JFX caps I have for the 56uF are fine, and would sound great.  I have been listening to JB JFX on the woofer of the Duette for a year and a half and I love those speakers (Sonicaps with .1uF CAST-PIO Copper Foil bypasses on tweeter). I like the JB JFX caps, but I thought I could do a little better - and I think I may end up doing more than just a little better, overall.

I don’t have them in hand yet, but I think the plan is going to come together.  Anyone wanna guess who is making me custom value caps?

[VinceT]

Vince, you 100% should be able to “voice” your LS9s via your crossover components. I haven't heard those but have enough knowledge to know there is resolution in those drivers that can come out further via the cross-over components. That’s one of the many upsides of Danny’s designs, they can to go even higher levels with some tweaks.

The other good news is if you are working from an AV123 crossover there is a high likely-hood there is at least one piece of “low hanging fruit” in that design and components that should get you to the next level of performance. So when you are ready to move forward on your crossovers, know that the “voicing” can MOST LIKELY be tweaked to your individual preferences. 👏🏼👍🏼👊🏼

Yes I have the stock crossovers. I seen a lot of threads when these first were introduced by AV123 that the many ppl performed an immediate crossover upgrade.

[jmimac351]

Custom cap shipment.

[jmimac351]

Caps showed up, and look great.  Reliable Capacitors / REL-CAP.  The 3x185uF values will replace the 500uF electrolytic which was bypassed with a 56uF poly cap.  It's a bit of overkill given where it is in the network, but I'm glad I'm doing it.

I have all values for the crossover in REL-CAP, so I can use these and / or put Sonicap on the Tweeter. 

Although... the black cap in the line are a Metallized Copper Poly cap, in the tweeter sizes.  Those were sent to try. 

I am also getting Copper Foil Film caps for the Tweeter from REL-CAP.  Those will be a little while.  Pricing appears to be excellent.

[jmimac351]

Unfortunately and fortunately... still waiting on parts. 

Alpha Core evidently thought Danny just wanted to order the foils and not actually use them.  They are going to go ahead and ship them out today...    (If you order stuff from Alpha Core, you may have to chase after them for it.)

Fortunately though, REL-CAP has been fast to make parts and Blake at REL-CAP has been nothing short of a pleasure to work with.  I have COPPER FOIL caps being made right now for the tweeter network.  2x 6.8 and 4x 7.5uF - which will parallel to a 15uF on the tweeter network.

Something about the white caps above... some may think they look like Sonicap - and they do.  They look a LOT like Sonicap...

However, they should be BETTER than Sonicap, and I'm paying about half the price of Sonicap for them. 

These caps are the "AudioCapX" caps... the caps that used to be known as "Multicap".  Each cap is like a bundle of smaller caps for faster discharge, but they act together internally as a single, larger value. 

I have my Wilson Duette, but I'm not a "Wilson Audio Speaker Guy".  For what it's worth, it's these parts that fill Wilson Audio speakers. 

I figure they should be OK... once I have all of my parts... 

[jmimac351]

***Saving for tin plated copper connectors that just showed up, which took a surprising amount of effort to find.***

Try finding tin plated copper connectors, that you can confirm are made in the USA (real copper), while sorting thru all of the stuff made from Chinesium.

"So, you want to wire up 82 drivers..."

[BrandonB]

Jim are you going to wire the speakers together and have Frederick build the crossovers?

[jmimac351]

Jim are you going to wire the speakers together and have Frederick build the crossovers?

Yep.  But I need all of the parts here first.  Hope to have all parts next week as Alpha Core is shipping my stuff.  I am going to arrange parts on a piece of poster board, see how big this is going to be - then get something to mount the parts on.  I have an idea for "easy crossover boards that look good and are already finished".  I'll get the size that works and send them to Frederick.  He won't have to make the board... he will be able to just drill for zip ties.  I like how easy I make that sound.

As for "wire"... I made some friends at Shunyata Research over the summer.  They don't sell "bulk wire" (at least not advertised), so I did something crazy... I shared what I was doing and asked them if they had any ideas, would sell some to me.   I got to thinking about "current" and all of those drivers, and even considered going with a larger gauge.  Chris at Shunyata thought the geometry of their 16ga VTX wire would be better than going with a larger gauge of "normal wire", and they could not have been more helpful. 

So, I now have 140' of 16ga Shunyata Research VTX wire.  It's amazing what happens when you ask nice people for help!

And, I also have a pile of Danny's 16ga solid core wire, which I've never had a problem with and think sounds great as well. 

The front baffles of the speakers are removable... I don't have to decide on "forever", right now. 

Here's the other thing... I tell people at racetracks that if you don't know the answer, you'd better ask (because your a$$ is on the line).  Recognizing you don't have the experience you really want / need, and admit it... that's a good thing.  When I don't know something, I'm smart enough to ask for help. 

I already know that I don't have the level of experience with soldering that I would like to have, and these 4" drivers are not gettable anymore.  If I need to make a run at these with tin plated copper connectors to get them running, get more comfortable with what's going on... I'll do exactly that. 

When I start wiring, I did not want to be in a position of exercising poor judgment and "force" something as it relates to my skill level because I got impatient and didn't have another option readily available. 

I want zero screw ups that can't be fixed, and I'm probably worrying about it more than needed - but that's because it's important to me.

So, that's why I have a ton of tin plated copper connectors, along with a ton of wire - and a few new friends in the industry.   

[BrandonB]

It's going to be a lot of fun putting them together.  I hope you have a few strong friends to help you move them around.  If I was near by I would lend you some help. 

[jmimac351]

It's going to be a lot of fun putting them together.  I hope you have a few strong friends to help you move them around.  If I was near by I would lend you some help.

I bet you would Brandon, Thank You.   They were a load for Danny and me just to turn up in the crates, as empty enclosures. Danny also has some "50 year old shoulders" he's dealing with, and I do too - if you know what I mean.  Danny's NX-Treme are very easy to slide around by comparison, but these will be a load.     

All the more reason - as I'm not getting any younger... you've reminded me about casters.  Because my buddy has a pair of Alexia and I've seen how easy that makes things, a while back I dug into which casters Wilson uses, and I think I figured it out.  I thought I might as well use the ones I've seen work in person, in the same application / flooring. 

The experience I had with my buddy's Alexia on casters helped with this idea too.  Yeah, they are big, but the footprint is not that big.  I've had Magnepan 3.7i and I think WIDTH is the bigger issue.  I will be able to roll these out into position, and tuck right back against the wall, over in a corner... wherever, if I'm playing with something else.  Slim and tall is fine, and looks even better with tall ceilings.

[jmimac351]

We have this network sorted for parts.  When it all gets here (next week?) I will plot out for spacing / board size with Frederick.

Frederick will build this network:   

- Tweeter: REL-CAP PPCuT caps - Polypropylene and Copper Foil
- Tweeter: Alpha-Core/Goertz Copper Foil inductors
- Woofer: REL-CAP AudioCapX internally bypassed caps (large values in parallel to eliminate 500uF Electrolytic)
- Woofer: Alpha-Core/Goertz Copper Foil inductors (even in notch filter)
- Woofer: Duelund CAST-Graphite tinned copper resistors - paralleled / doubled for power handling
- Bypass: .1uF REL-CAP and / or Duelund CAST-PIO copper foil bypasses throughout

I also have parts for a second network.  I may play with this network on my own: 

- Tweeter: Sonicap
- Tweeter: Air Core Inductors
- Woofer: JB JFX Cap on main sound quality spot
- Woofer: Electrolytic cap (500uF) / JB JFX 56uF in bypass on Electrolytic
- Woofer: Air Core / Iron Core inductors - iron core in notch filter
- Woofer: GR Research resistors
- Bypass: .1uF REL-CAP copper foil and / or Duelund CAST copper foil bypasses throughout

All wired with Shunyata Research 16ga VTX wire. 

[jmimac351]

So, how does one make a crossover network for a 7' tall, 41 driver, 2 way speaker where all of the tweeter and woofers are playing the same signal?  You can't just put a microphone and "1 watt @ 1 meter"... so, how do you do it? 

Danny explained to me how her did it, in layman's terms. 

As it turns out, there is an old 2-way Danny made that figured into the process.  "Taking a known thing..." 

Any guesses?  I have the response that I can share.

[jmimac351]

It's going to be a lot of fun putting them together.  I hope you have a few strong friends to help you move them around.  If I was near by I would lend you some help.

Also, you don't see this everyday so I figured I'd share about "heavy stuff" (and maybe sell stuff).  So, this is the strategy: "Tools are free."  "Tools don't cost money... tools make and save money".  NOTE: Please don't tell me I am wrong because it is much more fun buying tools.  Remember that when buying new tools, no prudent financial decisions need apply.  Matter of fact, I can rationalize that for speakers, amps, etc. too.  It's healthcare - and I am serious about that too.

There was this sight when I brought the Pass Labs XA200.5 home after I traded my Ayre Acoustics MX-R Twenty monos for them, straight up.

They weigh 159lbs each (not 160, only 159).

I don't think I will have the "cherry picker" inside the living room; however, 26 years ago I married a Saint who's favorite thing is for me to be spoiled and happy... so it could happen.  She would just roll her eyes and laugh. 

And, SHE is the one telling me NOT to sell them... she must have a real bad audio problem, too. 

These will be for sale very soon as I have found something that will fit this slot in the "drive anything" need, for an incredible deal.  It shows up tomorrow. 

These are a very late production cycle build, and Kent at Pass can tell you about them.  "Industry accommodation" and I think they truly have very little use.  I got them from a friend in Sarasota who got them from the estate / dealer of the original owner. 

These have to be as good as any example on the planet.  They are very, very special.  I just can't own every cool thing, as much as I'd like too. 

Any enthusiasts reading this who have interest should reach out to me.  I have one party who was gathering funds the last time we interacted a few months ago.  I will reach out to that person to check progress / continued interest, and then post them up - if necessary, this weekend.

[tremrej65]

so, how do you do it?

Interesting. I guess you have to put the microphone further than 1 meter... Or you measure with only few drivers connected and then extrapolate... Good question!

And seems like you got the right tool for that heavy amp.