Gravity Well Of A DarkStar

mcgsxr · « **Reply #860 on:** 18 Jul 2006, 12:43 pm »

Welcome Nuuk, I have read with interest your posts on Gainclones, over on DIYAudio, and am familiar with your website, as I have crawled that too.

I have used the b200's on their own, with a number of amps, and find that it takes careful matching, to get great sound, with that driver, run 100% alone - my little JVC EX A1 does the trick.

That said, I prefer to augment their bottom end, and since you have read all 90+ pages to this point, I am sure that you have viewed my ghetto sub, done simply in an H, with an older car audio 12 inch sub.

Perfect match so far, I am getting closer and closer to finalizing the details for constructing some attractive baffles, now that I am pleased with the sound I am getting.

Nuuk · « **Reply #861 on:** 18 Jul 2006, 12:54 pm »

Hi Mark. So you are the first one out of bed on that side of the pond!

I guess the others were up too late listening to their OB's!

I was thinking of mainly using the B200 in the new baffles with the dipole woofers and a tweeter. That's more or less the way things have developed for me over the last couple of years. But I am always intrigued by the very simple systems because although they may lack something in terms of reproducing the frequency extremes, they often compensate with detail not heard where more electronics are involved. In short, I plan to use the B200 both ways!

I have taken on board the comments on amplifiers. I will try the GC's with various PSU's and may even knock up a bridged GC. I have the class-T amps of course and next month I hope to have something much more exotic (and powerful) but that's for a review and I can't give away any more details yet!

mcgsxr · « **Reply #862 on:** 18 Jul 2006, 01:01 pm »

I would be interested to hear what you think about the b200 with a GC - I have an LM3875, dual mono, and I find that the sound is not well balanced with that amp. Any T amp I have used, has also exhibited this issue also.

Could be me, my OB's, or the amps I have tried, who knows, but if you find a good match, I would be interested to hear about it!

Interested to hear more about this high power creature you speak of, when the time comes of course!

Nuuk · « **Reply #863 on:** 18 Jul 2006, 01:37 pm »

Yes, GC's excel with an easy to drive speaker but on something more demanding, I don't think that they are quite so good! As ever, it's horses for courses!

Well, when I get my B200's, you lot will have to pay particular attention to my TNT amp reviews!

Dmason · « **Reply #864 on:** 18 Jul 2006, 02:30 pm »

Hi Nuuk

Out of bed on the Left Coast. I have not heard the Goodmans, but the B200 is a whole other animal to the Ciare 250. Your Bjorn-inspired baffles are not very different from the original "DarkStar" which was a distillation of the Orion, as is the Bjorn, all variations on a theme, sporting dipole bass with 2X woofers per side. I also have found that TL bass works well with OB, as well as BIB (Bigger is Better) tractrix horns, better than TL, so we know there are a few ways to skin the [bass] cat.

I have found that aside from higher powered T amps, the B200 sounds best using a tube amp, HP @ ~100Hz to relieve the amp and driver from LF information, and the damn thing sings to the heavens. Tweeters are highly optional with the B200 as well, and I only ever heard of one person ever using one, who also discovered that the tweeter actually seemed to detract from the B200 presentation.

I enjoyed reading your assessment of the various T amps, and of the NON-OS DAC's. Most informative.

Nuuk · « **Reply #865 on:** 18 Jul 2006, 04:44 pm »

Hi Dan, congratulations on pushing the OB cause so far. I'm sure that it is only the size issue that stops many more finding out what 'real music' sounds like!

I guess many of our designs will look similar if we are aiming at the same 'target'. I must admit, the biggest factor in all my designs has been the availability of cheap (or better still - free) materials.

And that's another good point in favour of OB's, you can often find enough material to make a pair of baffles in builders skips!

I have not yet owned a valve power amp but I read on the Hawthorne site that the Iris drivers were designed and voiced using a valve amp. I hope to be listening to some higher powered digital amps soon.

Thanks for your comments on the TNT stuff. The DIY reviews can be a lot of work and it's good to know that people appreciate them!

TomekZ · « **Reply #866 on:** 21 Jul 2006, 07:37 pm »

Recently tried a super tweeter with my OB Visaton: the Fostex ft17 with a cap to set the crossover at 20,000Hz, that is a 1 microfarad capacitor. Indeed there was a gain in sweetness, but there was a lost of harmonic cohesion. The Visaton certainly have decent enough extreme treble.

tvyankee · « **Reply #867 on:** 21 Jul 2006, 09:22 pm »

yo vinne

where are the pics from thrus?

krusty

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #868 on:** 22 Jul 2006, 01:54 am »

Quote from: tvyankee on 21 Jul 2006, 09:22 pm

yo vinne

where are the pics from thrus?

krusty

Hey Dave,

Michael Lavorgna of 6moons took pics and is going to do his write up this weekend and submit to Srajan. I mentioned this over here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=28843.msg265139;topicseen#new

Best regards,

Nuuk · « **Reply #869 on:** 23 Jul 2006, 03:52 pm »

My 'weekend experiment' this week was to try two pairs of cheapo 8 inch drivers on smallish baffles to try and experience what you guys are getting with a pair of B200's.

The baffles are 29 inches high by 19 inch wide and I put the two drivers close to one another in the middle of the baffle but slightly offset.

I'm surprised at the level of bass and in the small room I have them in, about 11 feet by eleven, I wouldn't require much more bass for most material.

I did find the mid-range suffered though and I guess it may be better to put a filter on the bottom driver. BTW, I removed the whizzer cone from the bottom drivers.

The other observation was that no matter how far I leaned the baffles back, the soundstage didn't rise more than a couple of feet off the floor!

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #870 on:** 24 Jul 2006, 01:55 am »

Hi Guys,

Check this one out:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roadtour5/roadtour5.html

Quote from: Michael Lavorgna of 6moons

I said "seemingly simple" because the number of variations on the open baffle theme is limitless. Baffle sizes, shapes, material choices, bracing, rigidity, flare... you can spend months (even years) of your time and materials experimenting - and some people have done just that. And shared their experiences within this thread. Feel free to dive into the Darkstar and wade through its entertaining and deep waters. I'd like to mention (again) the source of this particular flow of ideas as none other than Dmason. Dan can be viewed as the underground wellspring that nourished the roots of this phenomenon. And Dan is still an active participant, dropping in to plant a seed that seems to inevitably sprout a host of new ideas and responses.

The comments about Dmason (that I put in bold above) are right on the money and I want to thank him again for all his passion and hard work in creating this Gravity Well!

Thanks to everyone here for sharing all your ideas and posting all your experiences.

Here is an awesome picture from the 6moons article that I linked to above. A BIG THANK YOU to Michael and Srajan!

Best regards,

Vinnie

markC · « **Reply #871 on:** 24 Jul 2006, 09:31 pm »

Wow! Kinda' tough to follow a visual like that, but I thought I'd share my experiences anyway. I banged up a pair of ob's with piano hinges that measure 40" h x 30" w. I cut 2" and 4" pieces for the centre portion the 10"w centre baffle. The b200 is mounted in a 10" x 10" section so that I can unscrew a 2" or 4" piece and unscrew the driver section thereby being able to try different heights quite easily. (Remove a 2" or 4" piece and move the 10" driver section up or down and put the 2" or 4" piece in the open space). After several different arrangements, I found that I liked the driver centred @ 23" off the floor and the baffles tilted back about 5-7 degrees, (an adjustable foot allowed different angles to be tried). I found this the best for the low end possibilities of the drivers and also the mid bass. All I can say is that man are these things transparent and unforgiving. Put on a well recorded disc and it's magic, put on a mediocre one and it's listenable, put on a poorly recorded disc and it doesn't last half way through the first song. Now bring in a pair of dayton ib 15" subs with a 360w plate amp and it's the best sound that I have heard in my room. Actually, it's the best bass I've heard in any room! Upper mid to lower treble needs just a touch of taming imo, so I'll try sticking some 1/8" cork on the 10" centre baffle and see what that does. Unfortunately one of my b200's started distorting a little,( sounds like slight voice coil rub), so that takes away some of the magic although it does not happen all the time. A new driver is on it's way. After another 2 week break-in period, (if I can wait that long), things will be back to 100%. Bottom line is that the clarity and the presence of the music is outstanding. I didn't realize that removing the box could add so much realism to the music. Although I'll be experimenting further with different baffle materials and such, I pretty sure that these are staying in my room for a long time to come.

Nuuk · « **Reply #872 on:** 24 Jul 2006, 09:40 pm »

Quote

The other observation was that no matter how far I leaned the baffles back, the soundstage didn't rise more than a couple of feet off the floor!

I was listening again this afternoon without having changed anything. The image was still close to the floor. Then half way through the third track, the image was at 'normal' height. I went back to the previous tracks to see if this was track dependent but the image stayed 'up'. Most strange!!!

drphoto · « **Reply #873 on:** 24 Jul 2006, 10:05 pm »

This discussion has me wanting to give the B200/OB thing a try. My question is will I get a decent taste if I use my existing SS amps (Odyssey Tempest/Stratos Monos)? I'd like to run the test mules before making the big plunge to SET or Sig30. Or will I be wasting my time?

Other question is the price of the ready made Omega setup.

opnly bafld · « **Reply #874 on:** 24 Jul 2006, 10:17 pm »

drphoto,
I have used a hybrid tube/mosfet and a SS amp, both with tube preamp, and the sound is good.
Whatever sound you have now, you will enjoy more better with OB IMHO.

Lin

Nuuk · « **Reply #875 on:** 24 Jul 2006, 10:22 pm »

I agree! There is no reason that your amps won't work with OBs and once you have been 'hooked', and you have your OBs sorted, you can think about which amp to use.

drphoto · « **Reply #876 on:** 24 Jul 2006, 10:28 pm »

My current speakers are the Merlin TSM-M which are good, but the whole setup isn't very emotionally engaging. Of course my room really needs some treatment.....lot's of slap echo.

I miss the big dipole presentation of my old Maggies, but not their limited dynamics or lack of high and low extension.

markC · « **Reply #877 on:** 25 Jul 2006, 01:09 am »

Low extension could be a problem if you don't have back-up. High extension should not be a problem. The attack of the upper mid range is quite impressive with the b200's in my set-up. Certain recordings have all the high freq. info you need, others do not. This is my experience with my gear and in my room. For Ca$400 including materials it's a bargain for me. Add the sub drivers and plate amp... well your into a G-note. But what blow me away speaker could one buy for $1K?

Nuuk · « **Reply #878 on:** 25 Jul 2006, 08:09 am »

......and "emotionally engaging" is definitely applicable to OBs!

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #879 on:** 27 Jul 2006, 07:00 pm »

What follows below is a brief summary of the stock B200 vs. Planet 10 modified B200. Modifications include removal of the dust cap, installation of a phase plug with dampening of the driver basket and magnetic housing.

It is with some hesitation that I publish this report on the Planet 10 modified drivers. The differences are wholesale across the board. In fact it’s easier for me to tell you what didn’t improve than to go into detail with all the areas they did improve. Some of you might even understandably suspect some of the claims I’m about to make. No wonder Dave Dlugos is so modest! However, keep in mind there is a difference of 300 + hours between stock and modified drivers…

The phase plug fits into the void behind the dust cap inside the voice coil with enough clearance for a gap of 1mm between it and the inside perimeter of the voice coil. As you know the voice coil is the epicenter and source of mechanical energy from which the sound waves form. So why do most manufacturers block that area up like a beaver building a dam? I wish Dave had kept the dust caps; I’d like to try inserting them into my ears to see just how transparent / detrimental they really are!

Without a doubt the most obvious difference is the HF spread is wider. I still notice some image shift when I move my head within the sweet spot, but the effect is not nearly as dramatic as it is with the unmodified B200. It’s been my experience that regardless of every loudspeaker I’ve heard, they all beam to one extent or another.

With the modified drivers images snap into place and appear to be more localized and three dimensional. There is definitely more air and space around the individual instruments. The soundstage seems to have more depth and has enlarged both laterally and to a lesser degree vertically. The midrange body and tone is richer, there’s unquestionably a fullness surpassing that of the stock driver, but then keep in mind the disparity of hours between the two drivers. If I didn’t know better, I’d say that there was a better amp at work here. The highs are more delicate and detailed. Subtle nuances take on higher definition and newer ones make their presence known. The only area that did not improve is the bass.

But before I conclude allow me to digress for a moment on the subject of bass. I had some oak ply that I was going to discard, but in the end I chose to cut it up and make a small winged baffle that stands 36” tall. The driver panel is 9.5” wide with 10” and 12” wings. The driver is centered 29.5” from the floor. I prefer to mount them a few inches higher, but this was better than tossing out good wood.

Let me say that I’ am completely dumbfounded by how much bass I’m getting from a single pair of B200’s in my room. The baffles are pulled out a little more than 4’ from the front wall and almost 3’ from the sidewalls. These drivers have the ability to make serious bass. Listening to the big drums scattered throughout the Brave Heart sound track leaves me wondering where’s the sub? There’s a lot of energy in that disc and it will push these drivers to the Xmax limit without going too loud, so be careful if you try it. Another case in point is track nine on Maroon 5’s “Songs About Jane.” Again, be very careful with the volume control.

Since I was getting so much bass with balls I put my 15” Augies up for sale after trying them extensively with various amounts of gain at different crossover points, but it was all to no avail. Makes no sense. However before I let the Augies go, I have some other baffles without wings cut and ready to go. I want to see how they sound in comparison to the winged baffles. If I prefer them but they tend toward being bass shy, I’ll explore that issue with the Augies and second pair of B200’s.

One thing for sure is the B200’s are nowhere near the most expensive speakers I’ve owned or listened to, but they are easily among the very the best; the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the elusive rainbow!

It is my opinion that if you want to explore the full potential of the awesome B200, then Planet 10’s modifications are a must.

John