Gravity Well Of A DarkStar

JiffyBoob · « **Reply #520 on:** 8 May 2006, 11:07 pm »

Bemopti

I will relate to Dmason your dissatisfaction with the level of information he has yet provided, and will stress the need for him to run right out and buy a digicam to take shots in order to satisfy your ...itch. Is at least the level of Free Of Charge Beta Material being handed out here by him alright by you?

There are two types of people on the planet: net contributors and net consumers. I see it everytime I read these circles.

JLM

What gives you the impression I am attempting to change anyone's mind? Is emotional response to music "fluff" to you?

Open Baffle Congregation Of Doers

Congrats for being doers. Only those with B200's embedded on baffles really know what the hell we are talking about, right??

The baffles are similar in size to Richard's, with about identical placement of drivers, except the lower one is very low to the ground. Otherwise pretty much identical.

Listening to a D2D recording of Bill Hyman playing Ellington today, the piano was right in the room. Integration with a sub is easy-as-pie.

JLM · « **Reply #521 on:** 8 May 2006, 04:34 am »

JB,

For some the cost of (4) B200's and the impact on WAF aren't worth experimenting with. Seems like we're all trying to be friendly here and want to believe what is said, but until similar experiences and opinions are shared and reinforced, it's hard to relate. Most of us are very reasonably satisfied with what we have and need lots of convincing to make a change. And some are into stuff (numbers/facts) and some are into fluff (emotional responses) in this audio thing.

-Richard- · « **Reply #522 on:** 9 May 2006, 01:06 am »

I want to share this fragment of information with everyone who is considering
building his/her own OB with the B200's (or perhaps with any other synergistic
driver) in response to AC member opnly bafld's experiences with his OB
speaker placement...

My OB's are just over a foot away from the back wall angled so that the
B200 drivers cross in front of the sitting position...that position is determined,
in part, to their being physically (and musically) integrated with a pair of
Omega Bipoles...each driven with a seperate amp for a more subtle integration...

I mention this because I believe there is a misconception about OB's needing
to be positioned out into the room...actually I have had my OB's even closer
to the back wall than one foot away and the special characteristics that I have
previously mentioned are still available...creating their very special stunning
presentation in my room...

This in no way reflects on opnly bafld's experience...I respect his carefully
thought out placement and all the experimentation he is doing to achieve
the splendid results he is getting...I do not doubt the veracity of his findings...

I am mentioning the very real potential for placement versatility so that if
someone wishes to experiment with OB's but has sever or limited space
considerations please do not be put off by this misconception...

There are several things that can be done to augment any room anomalies
you may have...Dmason for example uses EQ and brings a great deal of
precision over the B200's frequency characteristics...

So far I have not needed to use it...although admittedly, my integrated Single
Ended Pentode tube amplifier has tone controls (remember those) and I can
achieve 40Hz and lower just by turning the dial to 5 o'clock (its limit is 6 o'clock)...

Although at first I was concerned about the B200's excursion being forced
out of its "normal" range by the use of the bass tone control...I have noticed
nothing in its behavior to warrant undue concern...Dmason is right again...
the B200 is designed to very high standards of performance and can be played
vigorously...

Yes...let's bring back well implemented tone controls...I love them...you can
tame glassy highs...when the recording engineer was not concerned with high
resolution audio playback equipment...and add base when the music can benefit
from a more robust foundation...and perhaps avoid the need for a subwoofer...

I am certain Dmason can add his extraordinary experience to this consideration
of OB placement when he has time...

Warm Regards -Richard-

opnly bafld · « **Reply #523 on:** 9 May 2006, 01:53 am »

Hello Richard,
Do your baffles have wings?
If so, I think this might be at least part of the difference in our experiences.
So far I have just used mdf of various widths. (no damping treatments for drivers or wall)
It seemed that no matter how I angled them it sounded like 2 speakers playing mono. (voice of lead singer coming out of center of each driver)
I built some boxes

(I hope I can still be in the club) that were @ 3.5 cu. ft. which sounded very good for box speakers.

I just screwed the back on so I could take it off if needed.
Listening with the back off (14' baffle x 10" sides) kept the soundstage while giving some of the benefits of OB.
I do plan on moving the speakers back into the spare room after I remove some unnecessary things and rearrange it.

Again, I don't think this can be stressed enough, the cost to experiment is mainly your time, not money. My first baffles were cut many times trying different sizes and it only cost $21.50 to start over.

Hope you are enjoying your music,
Lin

-Richard- · « **Reply #524 on:** 9 May 2006, 02:39 am »

Hi opnly bafld/Lin

My current baffle is simplicity itself...no wings...just a simple 3/4 inch maple
plywood sheet with a foot behind it that moves up and down and changes
the tilt-back angle...

OK...I see your problem...you could not get both baffles to integrate and
create a "centered" sound stage...hummmmm...

I can think of a few possible variations in placement but you may have already
tried them...1 face the drivers/baffles so that they cross in front of the listening
position... 2 tilt the baffles back a bit... 3 turn the baffles upside down so that
the B200 are closer to the floor... 4 turn the baffles side ways...if the B200's
are positioned on the baffles off center than try switching baffles so that the
drivers are closer to the center of the room...and then farther away...
same with the horizontal placement...closer to the center...than farther away...

I tried all of these positions just to see if I could better understand room interaction...
Playing with distances from each other (from the center out) is of course the
cardinal rule and of primary consideration...sliding each baffle away or toward
each other and listening to the differences...

Admittedly...none these ideas may bring any differences for you...in that case I would
think about changing baffle parameters as well...yes...by all means try wings...

When I was experimenting with baffle design with the Jim McCarthy (thanks Jim for
your patience and tenacity) he designed temporary wings that could be taken
on and off very easily and positioned on the baffles in a number of interesting ways...
closer to the drivers...higher or lower on the baffle and so on...the effects were not
subtle in absolute terms...and this could be another variation worth experimenting
with for your particular room anomalies, Lin...

For example you could place one end against the back wall...the other end
angled out so the drivers almost face each other...using the back wall for
reinforcement of the bass and to redirect the sound...also try placing them in
the corners if that is permissible in your room...if nothing works, a thinner
over-all baffle may be helpful...

Keep us informed of the results of your experiments and experience...many who
read this thread are most interested...

Warm Regards -Richard-

opnly bafld · « **Reply #525 on:** 9 May 2006, 02:51 am »

Richard,
What has been your shortest listening distance?
I tried many of the things you suggested, I was very nearfield, maybe that was the biggest problem.
Thanks for your helpful replies.
Lin

-Richard- · « **Reply #526 on:** 9 May 2006, 03:19 am »

Hi opnly bafld/Lin,

Deb and I listen at different distances depending on what is going on...for example
when we watch films we are inches from the B200 baffles!!!!!! they are on either
side of our TV set...and would you believe...most times the voices appear
centered...so that the actors sound like they are actually speaking...but admittedly
many of the "sounds" are somewhat seperated...but who cares...anyone who has
not "heard" a DVD film on a high resolution audio system has no idea of the added
dimension it brings to the film...tremendous emotional impact and the story's
narrative takes on a profoundness of intent that changes the depth of the
psychological complexities...

For sitting and listening we are probably 6 feet or so away...otherwise I am actually
listening in another room during the day...and it still sounds incredible!!!

Deb is in the room with the B200 baffles however...our "living room"/listening room
is actually the front room of our 1970's mobile home...I took down a wall that separated
the kitchen area the first day I moved in...so the room size is considerable...20 feet
wide by 26 feet in length...the ceilings are low (1970's architectural aesthetics!)
about 7.5 feet height...Deb sits 16 feet back from the front of the unit behind
a 3.5 foot wall that juts from the side of the room...she works on her Apple
computer in that area...Deb and I have a small home based business...we are
both designers...we listen to music hours and hours every day...we love music!!!!!

Warm Regards -Richard-

mcgsxr · « **Reply #527 on:** 9 May 2006, 05:12 pm »

Ahhhhhh, the giant thread that resurfaces every now and again, like some leviathan from the deep!

I have been using my winged baffles in my new room for over 8 months now - 25x35x7.5 foot unfinished basement.

I corner load the system, which is to say the the gear sits in the very corner, and the speakers out along the walls, as they spread from the apex.

The baffles are around 2 feet from the walls, at their nearest point, and are usually aimed right at each shoulder - they are not crossing in front of me, or angled at all.

The wings are spread open as wide as they can go, and keep the baffle stable - I have no rear support, it is the bend in the baffle that allows it to stand.

The center piece of the baffle is 14.5 inches, one wing is 12 inches, and the other is about 6 inches.

I find that they disappear in my room, and the spookiest trick they tend to play, is that you can stand directly in front of the L or R speaker, back at the listening distance, and they still throw a centered image!

This weekend past, I learned a great deal about how these drivers can take power, and respond to high end amps...

Fellow AC member markC came over, and brought his monoblock tube/fet hybrids, 300wpc! We ran these at 12-1 o'clock on his preamp for a while, VERY loud, and were just amazed at the power these drivers would take, and still not be at XMAX!

This was running full range, no components or Xovers at all, just SB3 to pre (his pre is a tubed pre/DAC), then to the monoblocks, then to the b200's.

I have NEVER heard them produce bass like this. They were honestly hitting below 50Hz, at 100+ Db, cleanly. Stunning.

At times, we figure they were seeing over 100wpc, and thriving.

In discussing WHY the bass was SO much better with those amps, vs my gainclone or JVC EX A1 (which comes the closest...), it was explained to me that damping factor comes into play, with bass. Not totally new information to me, but the first time it was ever so obviously demonstrated to me.

So, if you have ever looked at the FR of the b200, and thought, blech, it is a treble weighted machine that will never sound balanced... baby, you are in for a treat, if you can find the right amp.

I was 95% of the way to not needing a sub, with those amps...

-Richard- · « **Reply #528 on:** 9 May 2006, 05:50 pm »

Hi Mark,

Wonderful hearing your experiences and getting some sense of what your
baffles look like along with placement information...

Your basement must be rather alive as far as damping factors go...

I am wondering if the wings on my soon-to-be-built winged OB's need to
be a different length as yours are...did you actually experiment with wing lengths
before you built your OB's...or did you assume (intelligently) that different
lengths would help to mitigate the back wave cancellations?

Have you ever tried using a preamp with tone controls to see what effect
boosting the bass would have on lowering the frequency response?

If not, you may want to experiment with that if you have the opportunity...
it certainly works for me...

I am also adding a second B200 to my new OB's for greater bass reinforcement...
you may want to consider that as well...to see whether or not it affects the all-over
performance in your room...

Thanks again for sharing your insights and experiences...sounds like you
are really enjoying your B200 OB's!!!

Warm Regards -Richard-

JiffyBoob · « **Reply #529 on:** 9 May 2006, 06:39 pm »

Richard

It sounds as though your baffles are about identical to these; it sounds as though you and Dmason have communicated about this stuff, so I will assume this. I am finding the addition of a second B200 makes an enormous amount of difference. I look forward to your results, and so can you!

Mark of Canada

I thought Burlington was in Vermont, but then again I am a product of the American Public School System!!

The damping factor is a big issue with these. I am using a heavy caliber triode amp, the Art Audio PX-25, which has two things, buckets of power, and lower damping factor typical of SET amps. It is a 65 pound amplifier, almost all power supply. The DF is key with bass output with these. If I didnt have a full blown pair of DarkStars in gorgeous mahogany in my home, I would be pretty happy with the results of the Double B200 Lite, using a powerful amp either solid state OR tube, a single ended topolgy for low damping factor, and you have a terrific system irrespective of 'stuff' and 'fluff' ...in other words, I am completely amazed at what TWO B200's on OB is like done this way. This is ultra-smooth, gigantic sounding open baffle sound.

Sorry I don't have any numbers for the armchair audio theoreticians, voyeurs, and techno-weenies to piss on, but hoo kares. Just for the record, my lame-ass, non-technical rants on the matter of the B200 on the open baffles are intended solely for those who are inclined to benefit from them, for especially those in on this latest leviathan surfacing, ie: those who are already onto this stuff, or seriously contemplating stepping up to some of this madness: yes, these puppies can BARK in a clear tone.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #530 on:** 9 May 2006, 07:24 pm »

Richard - yes, that unfinished basement is a very live space, and can be TOO live at times, thus my corner loading of the system - it makes it all but impossible for reflected sound to reach me, until it bounces several times, and thus is reduced by the time it does.

Truth be told, I simple cut the baffle the way I did, on hunch, and aesthetic reasons. I know that varying the distance from driver to edge as much as possible is a good goal to keep in mind, so in addition to the angle I cut along the top, I made the wings different widths too.

Wish I could claim it was some stroke of genius...

Jiffyboob - the Burlington in Vermont is one heckuva lot nice to spend time in, I can assure you!

I can imagine that two b200's, with the associated Xover on at least the lower one, would be interesting, but I will not deny my pigheaded desire to have OB bass, with plate amp driven woofers.

As a bass junkie, I need to experience OB bass for myself, using a large diameter driver (I suspect the PE IB 15 will do the trick) so that I will know for certain, if that is the right solution for me.

I tend to be like that...

Thanks to all for the ongoing advice, and sharing of new ideas around implementation of this driver, in this manner!

Hey, you, over there, without a set of these - get that VISA out, and join us!

JiffyBoob · « **Reply #531 on:** 9 May 2006, 10:22 pm »

Mark Not of Vermont

I think it is a matter how you go about this, but there is bass such that it extends low enough to easily use even a cheapo sub and things will work out. I am using an outstanding B&W 15 inch sub, but not with the double B-Baffles. The magnificaton of The B200 Effect

using two, and bringing the extension down, in my view completely dumps the idea of using big, heavy, and don't forget, visually intrusive woofers. In the basement I suppose it wouldnt matter, and I wish I had one, but when the cost of squares is ramped up like it is here in DelMar, you have to be concerned about looks, if this makes any sense. Just weighing in with a very workable option here, which likely might cost even less than the plate amp, big cone, approach. Like the earlier BMW M-Coupe analogy, this is two M coupes, vs. a Chrysler product with big engine. No 'correct' choices, just finesse, speed, and Cool Factor, IMHO.

Im abit out of my league there but it makes sense to me.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #532 on:** 9 May 2006, 10:41 pm »

someday I'll have to build a dipole woof just to satisfy my curiosity.
I wonder whether the advantages are to do with the way a dipole loads the room, or just the lack of box.

In wall (or floor) subs can sound wonderfully clean. I've done one - 32 years ago! Basically flat to 20Hz and no resonances (woofer resonance was 19Hz). They were under the couch and supplied built in butt kicker function. You should have heard Emerson Lake and Palmer with them!

As to designs I'd like to try, this Linkwitz design seems promising:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm

-Richard- · « **Reply #533 on:** 9 May 2006, 11:17 pm »

Left outside...where the photograph was taken...this Linkwitz design would make
an excellent bat house...

I am just empathizing with the bat community here...not suggesting that this
ingenious sub would by anything but terribly effective...

Deb and I love bats...god save me from all subwoofers no matter how ingenious...

Warm regards -Richard-

JiffyBoob · « **Reply #534 on:** 9 May 2006, 11:47 pm »

Russell

I dont think this type of arrangement really is in sync with mega bass installations, BUT, I will share one anecdote: I have never heard Greg Lake's voice sound as wonderful as with the whole open baffle thing using the B200. Those big boxes look like bat CAVES to me. Either way, build it and then listen to Emerson Lake and Palmer on OB, which is the best way to listen to them, as all will attest to.

JLM · « **Reply #535 on:** 10 May 2006, 12:26 am »

JB,

Not a slam, just trying to express two sides of the same audio coin. No one listens to specifications, but they can help explain and guide.

Yes, when you write of the congregation of OB/B200 followers, it does begin to sound evangelical.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #536 on:** 10 May 2006, 12:44 am »

actually, I *was* listening to Greg Lake's voice on open baffle, as that was what I was building and listening to back in '74, but not with B200s!
I did use a good sounding wide range 5" Philips (AD 5064), though, in line array, sometimes.

I survived (barely!) for 5 years back then just designing and building speakers.

I was a real idealist and my designs took in to account many of the factors being discussed here and now, and some yet to be mentioned but not appropriate for this thread as they have nothing to do with OB.
I have learned a couple of things since then, one of which is the importance of the power amp in the equation.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #537 on:** 10 May 2006, 12:46 am »

Thanks to Dave and Scott at Planet 10, this is what a B200 looks like with a phase plug...

JiffyBoob · « **Reply #538 on:** 10 May 2006, 01:17 am »

Windchaser

Could you please re-post the pix? Very excited to see that and thanks to you and Planet 10 for you EFFORTS in ADVANCING THE CAUSE.

JLM

"Congregation of the Openly Baffled" is something that goes back quite a ways, in the pages of DIY Audio.com It was first coined by Thorsten Loesch about four years ago. It sounds fun, you know, ...FUN?

Either pleeeease contribute something -new- or satisfy yourself with reading. This madness is therapy for most and I could not care less what you think, especially as you are apparently have made it crystal clear where the "correct" choices are in your book, [how unscientific] why even bother....if you wish to calibrate something, PM me for some ideas.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #539 on:** 10 May 2006, 01:23 am »

I can see the image posted on AC from my machine but if you can't I'll try again.

Here's a link to the source if all else fails...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=911304#post911304