Gravity Well Of A DarkStar

barfind · « **Reply #360 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 08:09 am »

Dan I to have been thinking of adding another B200 to each baffle. I was thinking of crossing them at 200hz. I would still run a sub, but I am sure the extra bass would not hurt. The detail that I have in the bass running the B200 fullrange is amazing, and I am very interested in the effect of another driver. This I think needs to be investigated.

Nigel

JLM · « **Reply #361 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 10:37 am »

What happened to Less = better?

Two like drivers will degrade imaging and create loads of phasing issues.

Wouldn't it be better to:

1. Add a powered sub, or

2. Add digital EQ, or

3. Replace the Clari-T with a Vinnie modded battery Teac?

Any of these solutions, that we've already discussed, would be more effective and leave the simplier is better single driver alone throughout most of the frequency range.

JLM · « **Reply #362 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 10:41 am »

Richard,

I heard the Wright amp once, unfortunately it was driving Bottlehead Straight 8's, so I can't really confirm what it sounds like on a decent system.

JLM · « **Reply #363 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 11:04 am »

So many choices...

1. Move my old floor standers to help fill out a 5.1 system for the TV room, move my new floor standers to the living room to look nice/sound great for background listening using my old Rotel receiver and Sony CD player (the speakers would be way overkill), add the B200/OBs to my listening room. I'd need to pick up a center channel, cheap DVD, and relatively cheap 5.1 receiver to complete the HT (HT is a low priority to me). Would also like to send the Clari-T in for all the latest tweaking and get a nice tube pre amp/buffer stage.

Total cost, about $1900, add $300 for digital EQ.

2. Similiar to above, but move my Sony S7700 to the HT system and add a CEC belt drive transport (fore going audio PC at least for now).

Total cost, about $3100, add $300 for digital EQ.

3. Keep the 2.1 HT system as is (adding a cheap DVD), use the old floor standers in the living room, and swap the Clari-T for a Vinnie modded Teac to use with my new floor standers with a nice tube pre amp/buffer stage.

Total cost, about $1200.

4. Similiar to #3, but move my Sony S7700 to the HT system and add a CEC belt drive transport (fore going audio PC at least for now).

Total cost, about $2400.

Dmason · « **Reply #364 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 02:01 pm »

JLM

Whatever you do, you shouldnt be too concerned about a superior transport for your Ack Dack. The implementation leaves it highly insensitive to transport induced jitter and nasties. There simply is not any noticeable difference in sound with the Monica and any transport I have used. I use a Sony DVP7700, which was modified, a great transpo, and all you need, so rule that one out.

Why not do none of the above, get some B200's to play, use the ClariT, sell the old floor standers, move a Teac into the FTA2000, which is needed there anyway, and be done.

"What happened to less is better? Nooo! Less is More. And what I am talking about won't add any problems at all. It will optimize the situation, at least in theory, which is why I wish to put it into PRACTICE, to observe, for myself, in real time. What about experimentation? That is what got us here in the first place. Mine, I remind you. Are you dissuading pursuit of intellectual curiosity? Is the rigid disciple of existing principles drawing the conceptual line on the front line experimenter?

If so, please leave science to scientists.

"Some ask why. Others ask, why not?" --Freeman Dyson

I have four pairs of B200's in the garage, a fridge with cold bevvies, and an endless supply of MDF, and boxes of electronic parts. Whatever I do, whatever the results of my actual efforts in MY time and money, Ill be sure to share, to publish and present for your personal scrutiny. But I'll be damned if I do not massage them into new forms. People thought I was nuts four years ago for advocating "digital" amps. Some actually thought I was even crazier for using a battery for DAC's to get rid of the most important source of noise. HERESY! They said. Tried and fried on Audio Salem. The rest is history.

fabaudio · « **Reply #365 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 02:44 pm »

Quote from: JLM

What happened to Less = better?

Two like drivers will degrade imaging and create loads of phasing issues.

Wouldn't it be better to:

1. Add a powered sub, or

2. Add digital EQ, or

3. Replace the Clari-T with a Vinnie modded battery Teac?

Any of these solutions, that we've already discussed, would be more effective and leave the simplier is better single driver alone throughout most of the frequency range.

I was thinking the same thing. I have been following this thread with keen interest and applaud enthusiastically everyone's initiative and envolvement but also was concerned that the simpler is more concept was slipping.
I would like to add hastily, Dmason, that I have a lot of respect for your opinions.

JLM · « **Reply #366 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 04:45 pm »

Dan,

As our friend barfind (Nigel) would say, "Don't worry mate, everything is light and breezy." Just expressing my opinion. And thanks for the advice on the transport. BTW ever since a friend who works in an audio shop told me of the piles of broken S7700s at his store, I've not wanted to invest in modding it.

My old floorstanders were Fried A6's, that I paid $300 (orginal retail $1100), but are poorly built (unbraced 5/8 inch MDF) that may not survive shipping and are worth more to me than some local punk (I live in the hinderlands of audiodom). But they match well to my Ascend Acoustics that I use in my 2.1 HT system and another pair of them would cost $300.

Adding the Teac and B200s would be great, but I wanted to keep cost down. Perhaps I'll pick up a stock Teac and B200 and just mess with them both. Wouldn't need EQ or a pre-amp. And only about $400 total (do the HT/etc. later).

-Richard- · « **Reply #367 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 04:51 pm »

Less=more is a working principle...

It is not so much a rule as a guidepost. I for one would encourage Dan...not that
he needs it...to keep moving more deeply into where he feels the magic lies in
these investigations...it is important to allow ourselves to be driven by intuition
and curiosity...

The operative idea here is investigation and inquiry...it is in inquiry where
new knowledge will reveal itself...and out of that the new paradigm will emerge.

Let's keep all the doors and windows open and see what comes of it.

Warm regards -Richard-

fabaudio · « **Reply #368 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 05:58 pm »

Quote from: -Richard-

Less=more is a working principle...

It is not so much a rule as a guidepost. I for one would encourage Dan...not that
he needs it...to keep moving more deeply into where he feels the magic lies in
these investigations...it is important to allow ourselves to be driven by intuition
and curiosity...

The operative idea here is investigation and inquiry...it is in inquiry where
new knowledge will reveal itself...and out of that the new paradigm will emerge.

Let's keep the all the doors and windows open and see what comes of it.

Warm regards -Richard-

Aye,aye.
BTW does anyone have photos of their speakers installed on plexiglass OB's? I've seen some from Germany but not from members of AC.

Dmason · « **Reply #369 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 06:04 pm »

JLM

The Teac and a pair of Visatons would double your empire in one fell swoop. You dont need any active pre amp with that type of variety. The Teac with my F200A's is amazing. Even with the amp taking its eternal sweet time breaking in, it STILL sounds fascinating, and AlNiCo magnets are such a sweet thing to add to the signature of Vinnie's amp. Real organic sound.

I don't think trying two drivers has anything to do with breaking rank with the L=M mantra, my mantra in life as in audio. I like to keep my life portable and have no wish to build a mountain of physical artifacts around me, up to my chin, whose ionic charge is evidently as physically unhealthy as is material attraction, spiritually stultifying, .... as is the "norm," in our "civilized society."

We can live in a world with DarkStar Heavy and DarkStar Lite. I listen to alot of serious music, so maybe I need serious-er open baffle speakers. The simple part is that I know which drivers to do it with and which amp to use. I also have the ability to shelve and sweep frequencies in real time, so it is something I actually should do. I also like the idea of 98-99db with these things. Now commit to a pair of B200's and a Teac. Your most cost - effective and fun solution offering you the best of all worlds.

Fabaudio,

Go to the Gallery and find Toby's big Phy-HP Lexan baffles which he powers with a ClariT amp. Vinnie will be posting some pix of his in acrylic baffles soon. Idon't have a digicam because I am a techno-peasant, and have no plans to get a digicam.

Dmason · « **Reply #370 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 06:53 pm »

Fab

TobyW. Go to about page 2.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #371 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 07:11 pm »

Here is a link directly to Toby's PH loaded in the OB.

nodiak · « **Reply #372 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 09:05 pm »

maxwalrath, if you are buying new drivers the 127's offer a bit more spl, higher qts, and lower fs. I like the 107's alot, but I'd choose the 127's if i did it over again. Just my opinion. Don

JohninCR · « **Reply #373 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 10:30 pm »

The FE127's work great as a small OB speaker, especially for a computer where your monitor can give you more effective baffle and smaller actual baffle. The highs roll off just a little bit early, but what is there is really nice and smooth. They're smooth enough that they sound good even with the little computer speaker amps. Just cut the wires for your cheap computer speakers and wire a pair up on some cardboard taped on either side of your monitor.....instant speakers.

maxwalrath · « **Reply #374 on:** 23 Jun 2005, 10:32 pm »

true. I guess if I was to do a teaser smaller version they would probably be the smaller hemp drivers Louis is working with at Omega.

any word on group prices for the 200 yet?

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #375 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 01:21 am »

Hi Everyone,

My B200s were installed in clear acrylic baffles last night.
Wolfgang of Spectrum Audio really has his $hit together.... 1 week to get my B200s, from Germany!

I used a 10-24" tap to install a thread into the hole, and this worked out very well. I'm using hex head machine screws and the B200 is screwed down very tight. I currently have each speaker propped up using a simple 1" diameter wooden dowel with rubber caps on each end. One end is holding the basket of the driver, and the other end is where the rear wall and the floor meet. This seems to give adequate support, and simplicity...I really wanted to jump right in the water and listen!

So far, I just used the Clari-T-Amp with my battery powered cdp prototype. I need to make the time to mod my unopened Teac soon..
Keep in mind that I have very little play time on these brand new drivers, and I haven't had the chance to play around with positioning these for optimal performance.

Let me start by quoting I need to quote -Richard- :

Quote from: -Richard-

So far I can say that the operative word regarding the B200 experience
is SEDUCTIVE...the speed of these drivers is lightning fast...separating
instruments into distinct spatial fields which simply was not apparent
before...the OB thing is fully in play here...a slightly larger than life
presentation perhaps due to the "spread" of the sound into a larger
space in the room as opposed to a point source design...and yet the
clarity and detail sparkle like fire works on the fourth of July...the B200
"charges" the air...invigorates it...as you have pointed out the room
is now the baffle...SEDUCTIVE...everything else sounds constrictive
and overly managed...nice!
..

I agree 100% with you Richard. Here is what really caught my ears:

-- Lightning fast with startling dynamics, WOW!

-- Very realistic, spacious, 3D presentation
-- Sound is not just in front of me, but is spread around me
-- Stunning clarity and sparkle
-- Lively sound that keeps me pulled into the music, and as Richard
stated, is SEDUCTIVE

I am also feeling the music literally. I'm not just talking about the bass either. These speakers can really start and stop with amazing precision, and to quote Richard again "charges the air." I have never experienced this feeling before, and yes, it is very invigorating!

Let's talk about bass:

First, my living room and dining room are connected, but the living room is where these speakers are. The room is approx 13' x 21' x 8' and I currently have the baffles about 16" from the rear wall. One of them is in the corner, and the other doesn't get a real corner because the room leads into the dining room, with only a 2' "divider wall."

I am getting good bass down to about 60Hz, and it rolls off very quickly below 55Hz. Again, I haven't had the time to play around with the positioning, but I did put the baffles right up to the rear wall and heard all the bass go bye-bye, and then slowly pulling them out created more bass. I'm sure there will be a point where if they are pulled out too much, the bass will begin to be reduced again.

As was mentioned in this thread, forget about the standard rules for set up...you have to play around and really *listen* for the best position. I am sill in the process of finding the best position for my room, but I had to just let it go for the time being because I was too drawn in by the SOUND! The bass that I am getting is very fast, tight, and tuneful.

I'll be away tomorrow afternoon until Sunday night, and will need to let these gems burn-in while I'm gone. I'll have them face each other, wire them out of phase, and let those surrounds break in.

Well, even without the break in, I am very impressed as you can tell. I need to give a big THANK YOU to Dmason for sharing his great find with these!

Since the beinging of this thread, I felt quite a strong pull in from the DarkStars, and just had to try them for myself...I'm very glad I did! I'll post more impressions and pics next week (hopefully). I've just been swamped with Red Wine Audio orders, emails, etc. and need more time to listen.

Keep this thread growin'!

-Vinnie

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #376 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 01:44 am »

With your description, Vinnie, I feel as if I had been pulled out into the dark star and expelled out to the other side! You need to get some pictures of your OB so we can all drool, once again.

This has really hit my audio buttons in the spot.

Paul from NYC

barfind · « **Reply #377 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 02:13 am »

Vinnie, welcome to the B200 fold. Man these are really great drivers. For 8 months now I have been spellbound every time I turn on my system.
Get those pics happening

Nigel

fabaudio · « **Reply #378 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 02:36 am »

D$#n you Dmason!!

Before I jump into the purchasing pool could I have a rough estimate of the cost for a pair of Visaton B200's?
Vinnie
Could you give me your source for the acrylic panels and cost. Would really appreciate it.
If either of you would rather Email me the information that would be just fine.
Thanks
Frank

maxwalrath · « **Reply #379 on:** 24 Jun 2005, 06:25 am »

I'd like to know the source and price of the acrylic stuff too. If I'm going to have a large speaker in my living room I'd rather it be clear to make the place look bigger.