[Dmason]

Bruce,

Now you may order from "up the road," from Andre, at

www.e-speakers.com   of L.A.,  whose pricing is pretty attractive for the B200. The only thing better than two, are four.

[JLM]

Dave and I both had time on our hands this snowy Saturday so I trekked the 70 miles to his place with a few CDs, my Clari-T, and a stock Teac A-L700P to play with his new Silver Iris drivers mounted in open baffles.

For those of you who don’t know Dave, he’s a musician (plays several middle age instruments – hence the name), builds instruments, a master scrounger, a pack rat, and tinkers with all sorts of audio stuff.  He treated me to hand crafted coffee, a sampling of the local cuisine (reuben pizza), and a chance to wrestle with his husky.  We listened in his living room, about 12 ft x 20 ft and sat between 6 and 12 feet back, sometimes on the floor (when the husky wasn’t in the house).  We listened to Diana Krall “Live in Paris”, Deutsche Grammophon recording of the The Planets, Bela Fleck’s “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo”, the Dreamworks recording of the soundtrack from “American Beauty”, Norah Jones “Come Away with Me”, and Fourplay’s “Between the Sheets.”  Speaker cables were zip cord with bared ends.  Interconnects were the freebies that come with every component.


Here’s the stuff:

First let me say that we used a Phillips CD player that I’m unfamiliar with, but I suspect was a limiting factor in what we heard.

The Silver Iris’ were mounted in open baffles similar in size to Hawthorne minis (about 24 inches wide by 36 inches tall by 12 inches deep) with the sides providing a slightly open box shape to the back and were only 9 days old.  I hesitate to call the Silver Iris a “driver” because it’s a coaxial design that includes the crossover.  It is built by Eminence and the professional roots show in terms of efficiency, power handling capability, and very good build quality.  Frankly I don’t know how Darrel expects to break even selling it for under $200.  The tweeter can be unscrewed from the very heavy mounting on the back of the main driver.  Dave admits that the cabinets were rather hastily thrown together.  With its power rating and high efficiency, full break-in could take a very long time indeed.

First, these OBs have bass, I’d guess down to about the rated Fs of 42 Hz.  It was equally remarkable to see that much Xmax from a wide range 15 inch diameter driver.  The Silver Iris not only makes bass from open baffles that I could live with, it does it simply and affordably.  The main driver/tweeter reported crossover at 3,500 Hz using a combination 1st and 2nd order circuit.  We observed no beaming of upper midrange frequencies.  Dave had a sub available, but normally it added nothing with the material we used.  The tweeter could be a bit ruthless on poor upstream components.

Even with all the superlative characteristics aside, I’d judge the sound quality to be on par with what I’d expect from extended range drivers in this price range.  Bass extension, mid/treble resolution and inner detail were lacking compared to my well seasoned Bob Brines FTA-2000 that use a single Fostex F200A driver in a floorstanding mass loaded transmission line cabinet (an admittedly unfair comparison based on price and efficiency).  But then again there’s that unknown source factor.  We agreed that further investigation after full break-in and with a better source is in order.

The speakers were domestically constrained to remain about 3 feet from the front wall (an extra 1 to 2 feet would probably help).  The OB effect (wall of sound without a hyped sense of imaging) and bass response increased the farther back one listened from.  The presentation is not “in your face” and the sound had no gapping flaws.  Overall this combines to offer the consummate natural, easy to live with speaker, but I’d recommend using them in a long room and plan on sitting much farther back than with other speakers in order to fully enjoy them to their fullest potential.  The Silver Iris makes DIY ridiculously easy and very affordable, and should mate quite wonderfully into a system with a total price between $1000 and $2000.
Now before you interpret this as faint praise, allow me to quote from a published review by Scott Faller:  “… audiovile gear sounds (to me) cold, clinical and downright sterile. Sure, on most of it you can hear a bug fart in the third row of a venue, but who cares? More often than not, I don't. I just want to enjoy my favorite music. Most of my favs are in no way associated with audiophile recordings. Most of them are just so-so recordings of great compositions. You put some of these on most high end systems and you can hardly listen to them. In fact, the majority of the time they sound God awful.   So what are we supposed to do with all this great music that sounds like hammered shit on our 'audiophile systems'. I guess we aren't supposed to listen to it anymore or something like that. If not, why else are manufacturers making gear that excludes such a large segment of our collections?”
So this speaker holds an important place.  It allows for simple enjoyment of a wide range of recorded music, without intense concentration or criticism to a wide range of consumers.  Upon full break-in and with better setup/associated components they may come across as deserving giant killer status.
Modded  Clari-T (Alps pot, Auricap, Black Gates), only 50 hours on the mods.  At first listen the mid-bass sounded a bit thin, but by the end of our time it sounded more filled in (maybe I got used to it, or the material was better suited, or the amp just warmed up, or broke in some more).  It had plenty of power for these speakers.  The advantages of the mods, while completely transforming with my speakers, seemed pretty much lost here.

Teac A-L700P, stock, with only about 100 hours logged on it, had no obvious issues and would seem to make an excellent power/value match.  

1960’s vintage Scott tube integrated had soft highs and the bass was a bit muddy, but Dave was determined to jump into it and tweak or un-tweak it some more to see if he couldn’t get it sound better.

1970’s vintage HK Citation 16 (used with the Sansui as a pre-amp) is a big brute and still sounds good after all those years.

1970’s vintage Sansui receiver with separable pre/power sections held up remarkable well.  Some of the power amp section components need replacing and the pre-amp has some roughness to it, especially on the high end.

[-Richard-]

Hi Seminarian,

There is an American dealer now for the B200's...right here in LA (I live about
1 1/2 northwest of LA in the Ojai Valley)...

http://www.e-speakers.com/

The fellow there is named Andre Perreault...he orders from Visaton once a
month on the 15th of each month...he sells the B200's for less than what
the Canadian distributor sold them for...$128.45 each

Darell sells his Silver Iris coaxial 15 inch drivers for $139. each...

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/

It may be of very significant interest that the Silver Iris drivers go down to a
reported 30db range in some applications...JohninCR is willing to give away
his plans for a 5 sided barrel-like shaped opened back baffle for free to anyone
who orders a pair of Silver Iris drivers from Darrel...John's drawings are
wonderfully rendered...and they are very modest in size...they would sit on
stands and should integrate well...he reports a very smooth all-over frequency
response as well...he has a thread in the 2 channel forum...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24763

However I have not heard them yet...Darrel has informed me that my pair are
on the way...and I need to get baffles made very soon...

Still, Seminarian, a 15 inch driver may pose serious integration issues in a
small bedroom...even if Darrel's baffles are not much wider than the drivers
themselves...note that Darrel folds back the plywood to form short wings by
cutting the plywood (on the back side) leaving some layers intact and then
folding those back and gluing them...

The B200's are almost half the size at slightly less than 8 inches...however
if bass is an issue you will feel the need eventually for some form of augmentation...

Perhaps for a bedroom situation an even smaller OB speaker might be better...

Perhaps DMason with his impeccable research may have some thoughts and
opinions to share with you on this...and JohninCR has also done a great deal
of research and has a good deal of experience as well...

Keep in mind that Darrel may be planning to come out with smaller coaxial
drivers as well...an 8 inch and 5 inch may be on the horizon soon...

If you do not mind my asking you Semenarian, does your first foray into OB's
have to be in the bedroom? If you are adventurous and have a bit of time...
why not build your panels for your present listening room? That way you can
get to hear what all this excitement is all about under conditions that would allow
you to be critical and you would have more options for experimentation...

Then once you understand what the OB's are doing...you could design a baffle
that might work in the modest space you have in your bedroom...

Just sharing ideas with you...

If I can help further let me know...I should have information about the Silver Iris in
a few weeks...

Warm Regards  -Richard-

[Dmason]

A 16 inch wide static baffle would be fine, with the Iris. Two wings of inequal widths totalling 32 inches would yield an effective 48 inch baffle. More than enough, and would be fine with narrower wings. JohninCR notes the need for bracing. True for structured baffles, with folding, winged baffles, I have found that laminating 3/4 ply provides enough rigidity, plys, and weight that it is a very effective and simple method. I would use rubber weather strip on the bottom edges, and place the baffle on some sort of substrate. Nicely finished, narrowish baffles would be nice in the larger, suburban bedroom listening environ. Just thinking "out loud," here.

JLM,

Thanks for your critical assessment of HG Dave's new Iris OB. I have to say that personally I have to pretty much discount it however, as it sounds like the source used is an old, old, and sonically marginal source, a Philips CD player, likely something Dave found in an alley, or some equally canny transaction... Considering the source is by far THE most critical component of the system, it to me sounds more like an assessment of HG Dave's garage sale find, being played on the brand new speakers, using shitty wiring. I don't subscribe to the usual nonsense, pseudo-scientific babble that markets cabling, but GOOD cabling does in fact make a rather large difference. I have heard well implemented Pi Speakers, with excellent source componentry, using the Eminence PSD2002/8 compression driver, and was completely amazed at how good the new Eminence C/D was, over the old one. JohninCR can vouch, as he has the old ones. I should note at this point that Wayne Parham feels so strongly about the newer Eminence PSD2002 driver that he now uses it almost exclusively in his Pi designs. I would not be surprised to learn that Wayne designed the crossover for this unit. That would be a wise investment.

 Heads up folks, the Silver Irises are for real. Gawd only knows how good they might sound using active crossovers, SET on the horn tweeter, and perhaps a ClariT on the cone. I will be trying exactly that, using outstanding source, and signal processing components, and will write my own critical assessment of the Silver Iris, under the very BEST of circumstances, as an adjunct, or an offset to the above set of observations of the Iris, under, let's face it, pretty much the worst of circumstances. Somewhere inbetween will fall the experiences of the people happily involved, and Darrell blew through the initial first run of drivers pretty durn quick like. ....FWIW, I am even more interested in the 15" bass augmentor. By the sounds of it, it will be something along the lines of the Delta 15LFA, superb as it is, but with >Qts, and <Fs, an ideal bass-mid driver for OB. With this thing, one can try all kinds of drivers from 200Hz+. The driver would likely come in with a pretty solid ~98db SPL, and with the advent of the Emission Labs Smoothplates which make for muscle SET amps, the WHOLE THING could be run by one 5 watt amp.

 I would be very interested to hear the Hemp driver on OB for that application, or some of the new Italian pro audio midrange drivers from Beyma and B&C, which extend up to around 10KHz. With the augmentor, just about ANY driver, with suitable HP filtering, will, I GUARANTEE, sound better, as in waaaaaaay better, on an open baffle.

These are extremely interesting times for open baffle fun---->

[-Richard-]

Nice review JLM...I was able to get a feeling for your experience with the Silver
Iris coaxial drivers that seemed even-handed and thoughtful...

Break-in with these full range (or large coaxial) drivers is a serious consideration
that must be accounted for...the B200's for example changed significantly over
a period of say 200 hours...and Deb and I still experience moments of remarkable
depth "inside" the "intent" of the musical performance because of something...
It is very subtle...that is revealed that was not there before...and we both
experience it so there is some objectivity in perception going on here...

I listened quite carefully to Louis's Aperiodic 8's...the earlier iteration with the narrower
baffle in my home recently...the detail was astounding...and was far more resolved
than my B200's in OB (it uses the same B200 drivers)...

However the sense of realism was not the same...the B200's sounded real...
the Aperiodic 8's sounded quite fabulous...but it was not as real...

Here I am getting myself into real trouble to be certain...what in hell do I mean by
real anyway?

This last summer Deb and I heard several thrilling performances live in Santa
Barbara of string quartets and quintets...Beethoven, Mozart, Shostakovich,
Prokofiev, and several other composers...the theater in the Santa Barbara
Museum of Art is very modest...narrow and long and has wonderful accoustical
characteristics...the rows of seats rise as they go back and we sit 4 rows away...
on the same level as the performers...

I was quite careful to listen with an intent to understand some qualities of the live
sound...I closed my eyes and tried to imagine that what I was hearing was coming
out of a speaker...yes I know...a bit silly of me I admit...

However my little experiment was most  instructive...when Deb and got home each
time we listened to the same pieces with the B200's on OB...and what we heard
sounded very close to the real thing...

I am not deconstructing your very fine reporting of your listening experience with the
Silver Iris in OB...I am only sharing some insights about what I am hearing with my
B200's...

With the B200's there is detail galore...not as much as the front firing A8's...
but an incredible amount of detail...I could not tolerate more without
the musical picture falling into an artificial sound replication...like photo-realistic
painting in which everything is always rendered with equal detail...
a synthetic aesthetic that lacks a sense of space...

I await your further insights into what you are hearing with David's Silver Iris
OB's with keen interest...

Meanwhile I should have some contrasting experiences with the Silver Iris
and my original B200's before too long...

Thanks for posting your experiences with us...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[-Richard-]

Hi  Dan,

It seems clear that designing the OB system from the bass augmenter up
as you are suggesting is a very organic way to get incredible results...
and opens the door to trying new possibilities for midrange/upper frequency
drivers that could prove to have magical results...

I am most interested in any work you do with the Silver Iris drivers in OB...
as I am certain many other AC members are...please keep us informed of your
always exciting experiments and explorations...

It seems the OB direction that you started here...is taking off again...
a second life is unfolding...thanks to your gentle persuasion...many of us have
discovered the absolute paradigm shifting magic of the B200's in OB...
setting the stage for further exploration into the exciting world of OB's...

What started as an enthusiastic sharing of your discoveries many months ago
is now flowering into a full garden of delights...

It is with real sincerity that I say once again...Thank you for the gift of revealing
the sonic universe of the OB's...who could have believed that such sound
was possible for a mere few hundred dollars!!!!!!!!!

Not a day goes by when Deb does not express amazement at what she is
hearing...a revelation...and source of deep satisfaction...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[lonewolfny42]

John's drawings are
wonderfully rendered...and they are very modest in size...they would sit on
stands and should integrate well...he reports a very smooth all-over frequency
response as well.

Here's another link... Joint Chiefs....

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20[/list:u]

[JLM]

The Silver Iris is remarkable: very well built, high content value, and provides bass in open baffle without EQ.  

I agree with DMason, the usefulness of the review is marginal due to questionable source (although it was probably better than he might imagine), and crummy wiring, and lack of full break-in.  As I stated, a 2nd audition is in order under better conditions and after they've broken in.  But I doubt it will improve things a great deal, after all they're made up of modestly priced professional sound reinforcement components.

Unless you can do the face to face, out of phase, pink noise, covered with a heavy blanket, in a spare room kind of accelerated break-in sort of method, the break-in period could take perhaps thousands of hours due to its high efficiency, power handling capabilities, and bass performance.  So it might be a very long time to find a fully broken-in pair for anyone to audition.

I'd like to bring them here after I have room treatments in place.  My $600 amp, RWA modded SB3, and Element brand cabling in my 8 ft x 13 ft x 21 ft listening room as well as my older Rotel electronics, Sony ES CDP, and Kimber Kabling in the 14 ft x 15 ft x 32 ft living room should offer a couple of decent "real world" back drops to get a better idea of what they can really do.

I too wonder if they're well suited for a good bedroom system based on their size, and the amount of room needed behind, and ideal distance they should be heard from.

[gilbodavid]

This is all totally fascinating. I have recieved my B200's, only to find one broken, namely a section of one of the basket's cast iron (?) legs has snapped off. The supplier is sending me another and allowing me to keep the broken one. Is it any use? Will it play? is it a case of do it and see? Am trempted to stick it on an OB with one of the others at some stage just to see what 2 do! Am awaiting the Hawthorne vs B200 reviews to start to appear...

[roymail]

gilbodavid,

Contact Louis Concho at Omega speaker systems and tell what you've got and ask if there's a workable way to repair the basket.  He knows driver design and does lots of mods.  If the speaker plays, I'd sure try to repair the frame if possible.

You can contact Louis by any of the following ways:

http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/
Phone: 203-847-2800
Email:  marathonspeakers@juno.com

Best of luck.

--  Roy

[nodiak]

JB Weld, from a hardware store (in US), should repair the cast frame part.

[Wind Chaser]

Check this out...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=811094#post811094

[-Richard-]

Yesterday I got together with Jim McCarthy here in Ojai to experiment with wings
 on the simple OB panels he made for me for my B200's...Jim is a master cabinet
 maker and extraordinary designer whose work is legendary...

 This is in preparation for building an OB for my new pair of Silver Iris Coaxials...

 I thought perhaps my experiences could shed some light on the subject of wings...

 My OB panels are made from 3/4 inch birch plywood 25" X 41.5"...the B200 is an eight
 inch driver and sits off center from side to side...7 inches from the top and 7 inches
 from the shortest side of each panel in a mirror image configuration for the pair...

 Jim used 1/4 inch mdf for the wings...a 16 " and a 10" rectangular wing that was
 cut to the full length of the baffle (41.5")...these were made only for this experiment...

 One side of each rectangular wing was glued to a 2" X 3/4" full length (41.5")
 wood strip with a 60 degree angle cut into one 3/4" side...that allowed each wing
 to stick out at a 60 degrees angle when the wood strip was clamped to the back of
 the panel with one side flush to the panels side edge...

 Being that the B200 driver is off center, I used the longer wing (16") to reflect that
 side of the front baffle that has more space from the driver to the side edge...
 and the shorter wing (10") to reflect the shorter distance of the driver to the
 other side edge...occasionally we tried switching them without a noticeable effect...

 The 2" X 3/4" wood stick had one 3/4" side that was perpendicular (normal) and
 one side that was cut at a 60 degree angle...the angled cut was used on the inside
 of the panel closer to the drivers...the normal 3/4 side flushed to the edge of back
 panel...the wing was pre-glued to the 3/4" side with the precut 60 degree angle
 (the 2" side rested against the back panel held in place with clamps)...

 This had the effect of allowing the wings to stick out at 60 degree angles from the
 back of the panel...Jim used 2 black plastic spring loaded clamps with orange
 grips to keep each wing in place...one on top and one on the bottom...since the
 wings were glued to the inside 3/4" edge of the wood sticks, it left the entire length
 of the wood strip free to accept the clamps anywhere along its length...

 This simple set up allowed us to continuously drop and then replace the wings quickly
 during certain musical passages, to hear the effects with them and without them,
 repeatedly...Jim conceived of this approach to allow us to experiment easily...
 and everything proceeded flawlessly...

 Jim comes to audio from the pro-audio side of things...he is an accomplished
 professional musician who still does gigs on a regular basis and is an accomplished
 composer who uses the computer to help him to process his musical creations...
 Jim is currently building preamps from a kit for his microphones so he could bring
 further control to his recording sessions...thus I was listening with someone who
 was a very sophisticated listener and was used to very critical aural discrimination...

 Jim selected CD's that illustrated different frequency levels and the characteristics
 of transient attacks through instrumental passages and voice...for example,
 drums kicks to see if the bass and attack was influenced by the presence (or absence)
 of the wings...tangled musical textures to see if the wings helped to separate the
 instruments...and so on...

 During our long audition period, Jim would jump up and remove the wings so we could
 hear the effect as the music was playing...he also would back up the CD so we
 could hear short passages for a particular sonic effect it contained...and this we
 did over and over and over again...comparing our aural judgments continuously...

 I should also mention that Jim relies very much on his own highly tuned judgment
 just as I do...so we did not try to influence each other with what we heard...

 Jim also moved the wings inward, closer to the driver at one point...
 about 1" away from either side of the driver...to see what effect this had...he also
 raised the wings to create a roughly 1 1/2 foot space off the floor and we listened
 to that effect as well...

 We also used 2 rooms in Jim's house...one that is very alive with tall ceilings
 and the other deader...with rugs and other absorbent surfaces...

 We used 2 different amps...my Single Ended Pentode tube integrated with tone
 controls and Jim's older SS NAD integrated from the late 70's...

 Here are the results: Both Jim and I felt that the wings deepened the frequency
 range very noticeably...Jim felt that with the wings in place, the front wave was
 more focused than the back wave...he thought he could hear that subtle distinction...
 so he attributed the highly focused front wave to musical information that was being
 thrust forward in the music...like the voice...the more diffused, yet just as noticeable
 lower frequency back wave musical information he attributed to the
 musics background "textures"...

 Jim described the bass as being "punchier" with the wings...

 That kind of distinction was not obvious to me...I did not hear the front and back
 wave as two distinct musical waves...each with its own characteristics...
 the greater lower frequency response and more fleshed out midrange sound
 from the use of wings on the B200 OB's sounded seamless and organic to me...

 We both felt that the mid-range, lower mid-range and upper base sounded much
 more "filled-in" or fleshed-out with the wings...and that was true in both rooms...
 the result was a much more harmonically rich presentation...

 The more we got used to listening to the baffles with and without the wings, the
 more obvious it became that without the wings the panels sounded much more
 diffused and less focused...

 The B200's in OB sounded noticeably better in Jim's deader room...much more
 focused and less expansive...the bass was tighter as well...

 Moving the wings closer to the drivers had a shrinking effect on the sound
 space and the voice and instruments suffered as well...an all-over congested
 presentation...

 Raising the wings to allow space below them and de-coupling them from the
 floor allowed Jim to fine-tune the sound to allow for a merging between the
 highly focused "full-winged" effect and the more lively but diffused "wingless" effect...
 in other words if the wings were designed to be raised and lowered one could
 use that to further fine tune the OB sound to better meet the characteristics of
 each room's sonic personality...in the very lively room the raised wings were
 preferable with certain music than the full wing, for example...

 When our listening session ended I took my OB's back to my house and set
 them up with the wings in place...later that evening, Deb and I sat down to listen
 attentively to some of our well experienced recordings...

 Deb's impressions bare out the fruits of her careful listening habits and experience
 with audio...she heard an all-over redection in scale of the voice and instruments...
 a most impressive observation...I knew immediately that she was right...I just was
 not able to put it into words...the more tightly focused presentation that the wings
 brought about altered the diffused sound that we had gotten used to over the last
 6 months of listening to the OB's wingless...

 The immediate result was a reduction in spaceousness...the very thing that I most
 admired in the OB's magical presentation...however in its place was a startling
 transparency that easily matched the new Quad electrostatic speakers with speed
 and an altogether ephemeral nature...I am still getting used to this new presentation...

 Deb also noticed that instrumental passages that had been buried in the all-over
 musical textures were suddenly revealed in a most emphatic manner...
 this was not subtle...it was as if we had switched amps...as if we were now
 using a $30,000. Super XXX tube amp that reviewers fall over each other to get a
 sample of for review, and then gush, drooling ink prose onto endless sheets
 of magazine paper...

 The voice was the most intimate presentation I have ever heard...every breath, every
 swallow was heard as part of the performers in-the-room realism...but on the other
 hand there was now something a bit cooler in the presentation as well...by that I
 mean a bit less warmth...but not less compelling...

 I think that the expansive characteristic of the OB's without wings gave the human
 voice a bit of a glow...like some tube amps do...especially the older generation of
 tube amps...which is very beguiling...but also a bit less intimate because the wings
 bring the voice "closer" to you...even if the glow has been trimmed back a bit...

 Here is where being able to raise the wings might be beneficial if one prefers
 a dose of the glow...but still wants to retain that illusive intimacy...perhaps they can
 be "blended" to taste...further experimentation might shed light on this "control"...

 To finish: Deeper bass, punchier, a greater harmonic fill in the mid-range and lower
 mid-range and upper bass, a more intimate presentation of the voice, a slightly
 cooler perspective, much greater focus, much greater awareness of instrumental
 presence/separation from the musical textures...

 Draw backs? Yes one so far: I cannot achieve a convincing sound stage between
 my baffles yet...so discreet musical information tends to stay near each driver...
 this is not true for every CD...sometimes the voice floats in the middle which helps
 to create the illusion of a real sound stage...

 The previous simple OB panel that was wingless created a remarkable
 sound stage...and an incredible spaciousness to the sonic picture not unlike
 huge horn speakers...

 In addition, the wings make the entire "speaker" a bit too large for my listening
 space...at least too large to move around easily in order to find the best position
 to create that illusive (for now anyway) sound stage...

 So I have things to experiment with...what is up next? Making the wing depth
 narrower...let's say 12 inches and 7 inches (instead of 16" and 10")...perhaps
 that would bring all the benefits listed above and give me a greater chance to
 render a sound stage...also perhaps the front baffle panel can be made to be
 narrower...

 Hope this helps...

 Warm Regards -Richard-

[corloc]

"Draw backs? Yes one so far: I cannot achieve a convincing sound stage between
my baffles yet...so discreet musical information tends to stay near each driver...
this is not true for every CD...sometimes the voice floats in the middle which helps
to create the illusion of a real sound stage..."

Keep tinkering with them it will come in.   My speakers do the disapering act about 90% of the time.  It took alot of ajustments to position and tilting to set of the sound stage.  

Thanks for the testing.  It explains way I haven't  experienced the rap around sound discused earlier in the thread, but I do get a wide and deep soundstage with fixed wings.

[-Richard-]

corloc,

I was inspired this morning to try raising the wings (this created a 10" space
from the floor to where the wings begin) and toe in the OB's drastically...
the combined effect was startling...the glow around instruments
and voices returned and the sound stage filled in...still leaving the harmonics
richer than with the simple wingless panel...bass is still much more emphatic...
which is puzzling...since raising the wings decouples them from the floor...
one would think there would be less bass reinforcement...

Thanks for your inspiring suggestions to keep trying!

Fine tuning my OB's is interesting as hell...

Warm Regards -Richard-

[corloc]

Sweet!!  I wonder if the wings kind of at like the mouth of a horn, or mybe focuses the wave front?

I was haveing a little problem with coherent sound stage in the higher freq..  I found useing a thick towel on top of the OB and its wings really helped.  It kind of created the the top baffle that some people have suggested.

O' I also tried letting the twoel go down the back of the OB.  Thinking that I could filter some of the mid and highs. and make the bass more apparent.  All that did is create a really odd delay in the mids and highs.

Chris

[Vinnie R.]

Hope this helps... ...

Hi Richard,

Thank you for your BIG contribution here.... very well explained and informative!  You've given us something here to sink our teeth into.

I never tried the B200 OBs with the wings, but based on your descriptions, I would like using them instead of going "wingless."  

I found that the OBs gave a huge soundstage and a 3-D sound, but it was too diffuse and not focused enough for my tastes.  I can see how you have gotten used to this over the last few months, so it will take some time to get used to the sound with the wings.  Once you do, try going wingless again and see what happens.  

I think that the expansive characteristic of the OB's without wings gave the human voice a bit of a glow...like some tube amps do...especially the older generation of tube amps...which is very beguiling...but also a bit less intimate because the wings bring the voice "closer" to you...even if the glow has been trimmed back a bit...

This is a good observation!

Thanks again for your post, Richard.  I can't wait to hear your impressions of the Silver Iris when you get them built.

[-Richard-]

Thanks Vinnie for your encouragement...I cannot wait to hear what your
new-and-still-in-the-design-stage digital amp will do to bring its awesome magic
to the Open Baffle sound...I am very excited and await your new amps with
great expectation...

Perhaps you have accomplished the first stages of your move...if so...Bravo!!!!!!!
now the slow unpacking of everything that is important to you...not to mention
the inner-sanctum of the Red Wine Audio phantasmagoria...

Here are further observations of my OB explorations...

I had Jim cut the temporary wings on my B200 OB's down to a 3 3/4" width...

 With the drivers in their original position 7" from the top of the baffle I did not
 find the "focusing" effect particularly noticeable...nor did I find the "spatial"
 effect particularly noticeable...these 2 effects so far seemed to be exclusive of
 each other depending on the length of the wings or the absence of wings...

 I have noticed that at least one Japanese SET designer of legendary reputation
 has designed his own version of an OB that has the driver close to the ground...
 and Darrel's link to the early 1950's OB was designed that way as well... sorry
 but I cannot remember the link he gave to the pictures of those interesting early OB's...

 Anyway I turned my OB's upside down this morning and tilted them back
 30 degrees (+ or -) and...WOW!!!!

 Now the B200 drivers are 7" from the floor...so there is a very dramatic
 low frequency reinforcement...the baffles are aimed so that the front wave
 crosses well before the sitting position...

 This is what I hear: the midrange down to the lowest frequencies is fully fleshed out...
 much more dynamic...instrumental detail is strikingly more pronounced...
 voices have an immediacy that is startling...much more palpable...and perhaps this
 is the biggest difference of all...the textures of voices and instruments create
 a "freshness" that makes 1950's recordings...Sarah Vaughn, Billy Holiday,
 Etta James, for example...sound like they were recorded a half hour before
 I played them...there is less transparancy in absolute terms as there was with the
 longer wings...but I do not miss it preferring instead this new
 warmth and immediacy and textural/harmonic richness...

 Deb hears all of this as well...confirming my response...

 Further observations: the spaciousness has returned to the all-over musical
 texture...piano for example seems to have all of its overtones resonating in
 what sounds like a "real" space...Deb commented that she could hear every
 note played...and melodic "lines" that were previously buried in the playing...

 I would also like to mention that the "textural" detail I just mentioned fades as
 one moves further back from my listening position...which is usually 7 feet
 to 8 feet away from the baffles...the baffles are 5 feet apart from each other...

 Also the sound space/stage has now reappeared with a very satisfying
 presence...this was Deb's first observartion when we sat down to listen...

 Given this revelation with the B200's I am now very tempted to put my Silver
 Iris Coaxial drivers in a similar low baffle configuration to start...in my 1970's
 mobile home (which Deb and I are working on to upgrade and redesign)
 the new Hawthorne bass augmenter driver may be too much...bass sound
 resonates to the outside fairly easily in these not-built-for-audio modular homes...

 But placing the Silver Iris near the floor may just be all the bass I need here...
 or that my neighbors could tolerate...

 Tomorrow I will experiment with taking the wing off to see if they are helping
 to focus the musical picture...

 Warm Regards -Richard-

[Dave Cigna]

I just finished spending several days reading this thread. Great stuff!!

I felt it was a little late to respond to the earlier posts, but this is from only a few days ago:

I was inspired this morning to try raising the wings ...
the combined effect was startling...

I wonder if the recovery of some of the magic that was lost with the wings installed came from improved coupling with the floor to the rear/sides when the wings were lifted. Do you have a reflective floor or carpets?

One other thought that has no purpose: it's interesting that you didn't care for the wings close to the driver. Is this in conflict with how JohninCR feels about narrow baffles? I don't think so necessarily, but it's interesting. I would like to know what you hear with wings close to the driver AND a narrow baffle, but I have no right asking without performing the experiment myself!

A little background: for several years I have been using a fairly classic OB: largish flat panel with small wings (mostly for support) and the little block above the driver. I'm using a vintage pair of Altec 755C's that I picked up at a pawn shop for $8 (the thief wanted $10!) I tried them first in a simple Voigt pipe and liked it, but since putting them in OB's I've had no desire to try anything else. This thread, however, has inspired me to experiment with different OB designs. But where to start? I suppose I'll need to build 'breadboards' with adjustable dimensions, wings, ...


 -- Dave

[-Richard-]

Hi Dave,

Welcome to this thread which is in idle mode...like a long summer day where the sun
loves to linger in the fullness of its arc...hovering within the crown of the sky...
sometime the sun must move downward towards the horizon...but not for a long
time...for now we can still bath in the glow of DMasons ingenious gift to us all...

Great to hear that you have been using your 8 dollar driver in OB...you are one of
that rare breed of audio enthusiast that actually thinks for himself (herself...to
include the ladies that might be reading this thread) and can obtain musical bliss
by spending a pittance...my fathers word which I rarely hear any more...

We have all been "trained"...read conditioned...to think that magical computer
generated "secret" measurements of a diabolical sort must be employed in
cabinets built from the same plans that the ancient Egyptians used to obtain
their architectural wonders several thousand years ago...and braced with the
same considerations that one braces a highly maneuverable fast flying jet plane...
only more so...

So that the idea that one can stick a driver in a plank of wood without a cabinet and
"leave it to the Unknown Forces of room and surface variations" seems positively
like entering the twilight zone for many of us...and the fact that it can actually sound
light years better than their beloved and expensive speakers seems totally
absurd...ahhhhh...that is magazine hype for you...as well as the shock of the new!!!!!

Placing my B200 7 inches from the floor has had a remarkable effect...quite
fantastic sounding...warmer...richer harmonically...more present...even a
blacker sonic background...and the bass reaches the magic 40db range without
a sub or bass augmenter (the non-subterranean boom boom bass but the
delicate "fill" of lower frequencies that perserves the lighting speed and
transparency and presence that is the magic of OB's)...

Yes, Dave...I think if you have the inspiration and some skills...you would
really have fun going a bit more deeply into your experiments with new ideas
for your OB speakers...

That is precisely what I am doing...in 2 weeks or so I should have my new
Silver Iris Coaxial drivers mounted in their Open Baffles...and I can compare
them to the B200's...

Please keep us informed of your explorations...I for one am most interested in
your work...

Warm Regards -Richard-