[Loftprojection]

Hello Dave or others that know much more than me about DIY 1801 speakers! haha  Hope I will not bore you too much because this post will be a bit long!

I just discovered this project because I'm curently contemplating the idea of changing my 15y old NHT 1.3/1.1 speakers!  Those speakers do a great job and I'm having problems finding commercial speakers I can afford that will be a good step above the NHT.  Since I'm not so bad with my hands, I'm now checking out the DIY stuff and stumbled on the 1801...  So here are 3 different things I'd like to talk about:

- First I read a couple of pages on the business model/changes for 2004-2005.  Very interesting and I have to admit Dave seems like quite an honest guy! haha  I'd like to suggest a few things.  It seems like most information on the 1801 is concentrated on the audiocircle forum, might be a good idea to go on other forums.  Also, why not create a review section right on the ellisaudio site and directly post customer comments you receive by email after asking them if they agree...

- Second, one thing I find very difficult in the DIY business is trying to know, have and idea, how a speaker will sound.  With commercial speakers, there are always professional comparison reviews/shootout between speakers and most audio people somehow know the differences between the typical B&W sound versus Dyneaudio versus ...  Why not have a section that compares the 1801 with some commercial speakers, providing it's strength and weaknesses vs this model of B&W or that model of Proac,...  This would make potential buyers more comfortable.  Myself, I'm very attracted by the Proac sound,  and I also love the Totem Arro.  if I knew that the 1801 will differ in this aspect to the Proac D15, or would sound very close to this model of B&W, etc...

- Last thing, the 1801 is very interesting for me but I need a DIY design that will provide the opportunity to build 5 identically voiced speakers for a HT setup with the main as the priority.   HT is very popular these days and I think it's a flaw not to have options for that market.  It would probably be very easy to propose 2-3 different cabinet sizes which would provide customers with the possibility of creating a center and smaller rear speakers.  Also, I'm not sure the current 1801 cabinet is something that will appeal to the masses.  I think it would probably be more appealing if it was built on a small tower base.  

I hope most of what I'm discussing here as not been covered previously.  I read some threads but there is too much stuff to read so I decided to post this anyway.  Also, please be gentle to me if what I'm saying is a bit stupid, I'm new to this DIY business so maybe my ideas about the cabinets don't make sense at all! haha


Thanks for any answers/suggestions you can provide to me.  Hope my comments have a certain value.

Cheers.

[hubert]

Hello Loftprojection,

I have to admit Dave seems like quite an honest guy...

Not only he seems, but he is... and much more; probably will you get others 1801 consumers opinions about.
I'm french, living in France, about 10000kms from Dave, and I'm a very happy 1801-kit owner/builder... like two of my french friends.

If I knew that the 1801 will differ in this aspect to the Proac D15...

Adequate comparison, same volume, nearly same Seas woofer, in a first approach same philosophy; sounds should be similar: Before listening to the 1801, I listened to the D15 with exactly the same electronics, in the same room: sounds are NOT the same. The only two near characters are: no listening fatigue and their electronics qualitys dependency. Although bass seem to be on par,  the 1801 is much more detailed, dynamics are really improved, image is wider and soundstages too. In a few words, the 1801 sounds like it was a greater speaker AND a better speaker  

And this is not astonishing: The Ellis drivers choices and loading, a simple but very well designed Xover, the better available Xover components and wires, and you get...a high-end two ways monitor speaker.  

   Elsass beer is the best in the world (this isn't absolutely true but white wines YES.)

[Loftprojection]

Hello Hubert, many thanks for the D15 comparison.  Wow, the way you describe it, the 1801 gives you more satisfaction then the D15, that's very good.  Funny you mention wider soundstage, I did find the D15 soundstage to be a bit "compressed" but heck this was in a store and they were not positionned to their advantage...they sure had nice mids/voices.

Un beau bonjour à un cousin Français! haha  Je suis Français aussi mais du Canada!

Cheers.

Hello Loftprojection,

Adequate comparison, same volume, nearly same Seas woofer, in a first approach same philosophy; sounds should be similar: Before listening to the 1801, I listened to the D15 with exactly the same electronics, in the same room: sounds are NOT the same. The only two near characters are: no listening fatigue and their electronics qualitys dependency. Although bass seem to be on par,  the 1801 is much more detailed, dynamics are really improved, image is wider and soundstages too. In a  ...

[smithsonga]

There is a 1801F design for a nice skinny tower speaker.

I plan on using the MBOW1 speaker for rears in my HT as they utilize the same tweeter and would be more than adequate for rears.  I may use it for a center as well if I determine I even need a center with two 1801s for mains.

Jim

[David Ellis]

Thanks for your very long post, and posting it here for public consumption.  Also, thanks for reading some of the very lengthy rhetoric on this forum.  There are many good snippets of information, but sorting through this for information that is useful to YOU is often very time consuming.  

I will use some of your quotes for clarity.

I just discovered this project because I'm curently contemplating the idea of changing my 15y old NHT 1.3/1.1 speakers!

Subjectively bettering these speakers will be VERY easy.  There are many kits/projects that will perform better.  You might consider some of the other projects at www.murphyblaster.com or something from GR-Research.com .  If cost is a factor, Danny has the market basically cornered on economical speakers that will product sonic quality on par with $800 - $1200 commercial speakers IMO .

It seems like most information on the 1801 is concentrated on the audiocircle forum, might be a good idea to go on other forums.

I have thought of this.  It's a good idea, but... the TIME... Whew!  Keeping track of information in several different forums is simply too much for me.  In years past I spent some time at audioasylum and some colorful exchange with Brian Cheney, but this was a long time ago.  I actually like the organization of this forum because it enables folks to search and add to older threads.  The "archived" threads in many other forums are frozen.

Also, why not create a review section right on the ellisaudio site and directly post customer comments you receive by email after asking them if they agree...

This is probably a good idea, but it's overdone by others.  Also, this allows ME the option of editing/changing feedback input.  I really encourage folks to post their comments at www.audioreview.com in a very candid fashion that is not editable by me.  I think a smart outsider/newcomer to EllisAudio realizes the difference between unbiased and "colored" information.  Further, this year I started the customer community.  I think this is a grand idea, as it allows newcomers to view the setup for others, and potentially email them for more specifics.  It has actually enlightened me somewhat because several of my customers have experience with gear that I find interesting.  This year it seems audioreview and the customer community are finding some degree of greater success.  I think my appeal helped.

- Second, one thing I find very difficult in the DIY business is trying to know, have and idea, how a speaker will sound.

Yep, you have to dig through a bunch of comments at audioreview to find a few comparisons with commercial speakers.  I recall the B&W Signature 800 and the Proac 3.8, but... don't remember others.  I am really not sure why this happens.  I do know that several of my customers have replaced Paradigm speakers in the $2k-$3k zone, but don't recall other specific displacements.  

This is indeed a strange dynamic.  There are a few explanations.  Some of these are going to sound grandiose, but I don't know how to avoid this subjective expression.

1.  Folks are so darn happy with their 1801s they have no need/desire to take their speakers to a hifi shop for comparison.  Certainly I have lived in Omaha for about 2 years and haven't entered any of the local hifi shops.  I objectively understand much of hifi "guts", and have no reason to listen to inferior products.  I really don't want to waste my time.

2.  Folks are considerate of salesmen in hifi shops and don't want to waste their time.  Certainly I realize it does the hifi shop little/no good knowing that some local DIY guy builds a product for $1500 that sounds better than their products costing 3-5x $.  I have no need to smear their noses in this discrepancy, and we all understand the source of the discrepance.  It's rooted in Dave Ellis's brick and mortar markup (i.e. nil) and Dave Ellis's shop fees (i.e. nil)   .  

On a side note... I must admit that my bride occasionally gives me "the look" when we discuss my business.  I generally smile during this discussion.  She doesn't. Occasionally I remind my wife that it could be worse.  I could golf and drink beer.  And, even thought my wife will occasionally express some disdain about my business/hobby, she is much more appreciative, and always comments about the changes to our home system.  

- Last thing, the 1801 is very interesting for me but I need a DIY design that will provide the opportunity to build 5 identically voiced speakers for a HT setup with the main as the priority.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about this.  I personally think the 1801 is gross overkill for HT.  The MBOW1 is modest overkill IMO.  However, recently Jim Salk www.salksound.com constructed a setup using 1801s all around for a customer overseas (Australia?).  Jim said he was skeptical too and discouraged this expense for the customer during the onset of this discussion.  At the end of the project Jim setup the speakers and dialed them in.  Jim said the setup sounded extremely good.  

I can convey the 1801 is viable in 16.5 liters sealed.  I have done this and it worked okay, but I preferred the ported bass and the larger @22 liter cabinet.  However, in a bookshelf this won't really work due to the port location.  A sealed setup is better.

If budget is a real concern, I recommend you build MBOW1 speakers all around.  If budget is a partial concern, I recommend you build 2x 1801 and 3x MBOW1.  The voicing and sound quality are surprisingly similar.  If budget is not a concern, buid 5x 1801 with a pair of SCC300 subwoofers in the front corners.

However, in all of this, I recommend you build a pair of 1801 speakers then listen to them for HT. I have done this for years and really enjoy this.  The imaging is quite good.

Also, I'm not sure the current 1801 cabinet is something that will appeal to the masses. I think it would probably be more appealing if it was built on a small tower base.

Please read here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=7577

Where is home for you? Will you be using a projector?  And, what flavor source gear will be used?

Whew, that was long.  Maybe next time a chat via telephone would be better.  Hopefully I addressed all of your concerns.

[Loftprojection]

Dave, well don't tell me I write long posts, you are as bad if not worst! hahaha  Thanks much anyway for all this info!  Here I go again with a long one below! haha

Wow, I had not seen those towers but they sure look good.  However after reading some of your comments I'm not sure I would venture in it since I would not want to compromise in any way the mid/voices, this is one area where I'm looking for ultimate performance.  

My suggestion for a 5.1 kit does not mean necessarily identical drivers in all 5 speakers but at least a very close voicing and ideally identical in the front 3 speakers.  It's not for movies by the way, I listen to some multi-channel music and specially concerts on DVD and I find that having the same family of speakers produces a much better result.   Also, my suggestion was kind of a business advice for you as an option to maybe get more customers since the home theater market is probably one of the biggest growth segment in the audio industry.

I am not looking for something a little better than my NHT, I'm looking for something that will be MUCH better.  Commercially, the only speakers that I found were worth changing my old NHT were in the $2-4k range.  Since this is too much for me, that is what steered me towards looking at DIY kits.  So no, I am not looking at a kit that will be equivalent to $1-1.5k commercial speakers.   However, it's easier to spend $200-300 on a small kit and if it's not that great you just use it in the garage! haha  When you start spending a lot of money for a kit, you want try to make sure the result will be to your taste.  I understand that once you have a pair of 1801, you don't run around to shops for comparison, however I'm sure some 1801 owners used to have other commercial speakers so it would be nice if they had compared what they used to have against their new baby!

I currently have an Arcam CD23T player and an Audio Aero Prima MKII hybrid amp.  I will probably also have a full tube amp (43w) in the near future.  For HT, I have an Arcam receiver and Denon 2900 DVD.  So I think my components are relatively good, sure it's not super high-end stuff but it's definitely not mass low-end stuff either.

Thanks again for the info you provided.  I still have a bit of research to do and I sure will call you for a little chat when I'm ready to take my decision.

Cheers.

[Loftprojection]

Ho and I found a great review.  It's probably been posted before but what the heck, it gave me some goose bumps! hahaha

http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5418