[csconner58]

Danny,

I'm building up my supply of parts in preparation to begin refurbishing my Cerwin Vega speaker collection... My question is focused on wire for the internal connections between binding posts, crossovers and drivers... I understand the concepts you address regarding the quality of the circuit from AMP to speakers but this question is focused on the internal wire of the cabinets. Can you articulate the idea/concept/theory as to the desired type of wire, jacket and gauge to be used inside the cabinets?

Thank you

Craig

[FullRangeMan]

I prefer Neotech UPOCC Teflon AWG 14 or 16 Solid Wire, but the PVC is more affordable.

Use the same gauge for all drivers, avoid stranded wire and thin wire.

[PumaCat]

Danny,

I'm building up my supply of parts in preparation to begin refurbishing my Cerwin Vega speaker collection... My question is focused on wire for the internal connections between binding posts, crossovers and drivers... I understand the concepts you address regarding the quality of the circuit from AMP to speakers but this question is focused on the internal wire of the cabinets. Can you articulate the idea/concept/theory as to the desired type of wire, jacket and gauge to be used inside the cabinets?

Thank you

Craig

Respectfully, my recommendation is to not use wire that uses PVC for the insulation/dielectric. Morever, Danny Ritchie consistently makes reference to specifically not using PVC wire in his speaker upgrade videos all the time. This is because PVC dieletric wire causes what is known as "blur and slur" to the audio quality, among other problems it can cause with respect to audio quality.

Rather, use 100% pure copper wire that uses polyethylene or PTFE (Teflon) as the insulation/dielectric. Danny recommends NOT using PVC jacketed wire for wiring crossover boards to loudspeaker drivers internally (i.e., the internal speaker cabinet  wiring from the drivers to the XO circuit board) and sells some polyethylene wire for his speaker kits and you may be able to buy some from him or find out what he recommends for a wire with polyethylene as insulation/dielectric.

You can also buy Teflon (aka "PTFE" hookup from Digikey here: https://shorturl.at/yExV7https://shorturl.at/yExV7

Cheers.

[corndog71]

Danny sells a high quality solid core 16awg internal wire for not a lot of money.  You could go with fancier wire but it’s not absolutely necessary.

[csconner58]

Hello all, thanks for the responses so far...

I am aware of GR Research's Teflon coated offerings and am considering obtaining a bit (as well as some tube connectors) to add to my supplies to test and hear the differences that Danny and others have described.

That said I'll add to my questions "beyond what are the proprieties that make PVC undesirable", it clearly has to be the most common insulation/dielectric in use across the industry....

What properties make polyethylene or PTFE (Teflon) desirable?

What about silicon insulation? This seems to be a more readily available alternative to PVC.

Finding 99% pure oxygen free copper wire is tough enough, adding the requirement for one of those two insulation materials just adds to the difficulties and costs when looking to build up supplies for the projects I'm planing.

Also, What about silver plated or other tinned products with 99% pure oxygen free copper wire core? Are those not a desired combination of materials?

I assume these materials/properties apply both to the wiring within the crossover as well as the wire from binding posts to xovers and xovers to the drivers.

And, what about the construction of the wires to/from the crossovers should these be solid core or stranded? Again, the standard seems to be stranded, but i have seen small handful of people indicate one should use solid from xover to drivers.

Thanks, hope everyone had a great weekend and terrific Monday.

Thank you,
Craig

[corndog71]

I’m no expert but my understanding is that the insulation has a big effect because the signal essentially rides on the surface of the conductor.  Teflon has the least amount of effect on the signal whereas PVC can alter the velocity of the signal at certain frequencies.  PVC is almost resistive at higher frequencies.  It almost mutes the higher frequencies.

Solid core is ideal because it keeps the signal path simpler.  Stranded wires get the job done but the main benefit is that it’s more flexible. 

Some companies use multiple individually insulated wires in a braided geometry for a couple reasons.  The braiding keeps the wires at angles to each other minimizing turning them into antenna.  This also allows for controlling inductance and capacitance.  By using multiple conductors you can get to larger gauges.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Hello all, thanks for the responses so far...

I am aware of GR Research's Teflon coated offerings and am considering obtaining a bit (as well as some tube connectors) to add to my supplies to test and hear the differences that Danny and others have described.

That said I'll add to my questions "beyond what are the proprieties that make PVC undesirable", it clearly has to be the most common insulation/dielectric in use across the industry....

What properties make polyethylene or PTFE (Teflon) desirable?

It involves a parameter know as dielectric constant, the lower that number is, the less likely it is to hold a residual charge (like balloons & static charge) which impacts high frequencies, essentially "smearing" them with skin effect issues, the higher the number, the worse it is.
the lowest possible rating is a vacuum with a rating of 1.0, next is dry air which is ~1.00059 but exposure to air means eventual oxidation, so not ideal in the long run.
Teflon is 2.0 and Polyethylene is 2.2 which are both excellent ratings. The only things than Teflon better are fabrics or aerated foams which typically fall somewhere between 1 & 2
However, they are pretty rare to some across, unless they are custom made. (I think Duelund sells fabric coated wire)

What about silicon insulation? This seems to be a more readily available alternative to PVC.

Silicone rubber falls in the 2.5-3.7 range, which is a little better than to PVC which can range from 4-8

Finding 99% pure oxygen free copper wire is tough enough, adding the requirement for one of those two insulation materials just adds to the difficulties and costs when looking to build up supplies for the projects I'm planing.

Also, What about silver plated or other tinned products with 99% pure oxygen free copper wire core? Are those not a desired combination of materials?

We generally recommend avoiding silver-plated copper because it causes a phase shift in the treble region that can make some instruments and vocals sound disjointed, or bright/forward.
Tinned-copper has the same phase shift, just in the other direction, where the treble will sound a little softer/recessed
Pure copper or pure silver wire is always the better option.

I assume these materials/properties apply both to the wiring within the crossover as well as the wire from binding posts to xovers and xovers to the drivers.

Correct, the longer the run of cable, the larger the effect will be, same goes for speaker cables between the amp(s) and speaker(s)

And, what about the construction of the wires to/from the crossovers should these be solid core or stranded? Again, the standard seems to be stranded, but i have seen small handful of people indicate one should use solid from xover to drivers.

Thanks, hope everyone had a great weekend and terrific Monday.

Thank you,
Craig

There's no hard rule when it comes to internal wire tbh.
Ask 5 different people and you'll get 5 different answers for 5 different reasons.
Some recommend the same wire for the whole speaker, other recommend different gauges/types for different drivers.
Some will only recommend solid core, others stranded only.
Some will recommend stranded on the tweeter/mid and solid on the bass, others will recommend the exact opposite.

Generally we recommend using 16 gauge solid-core on all drivers. But feel free to play around.

[csconner58]

Hobbs,

Thank you, this is the type of info I was hoping for... I've done a bit more research and found several web sites that address this topic and this site has a nice chart that summarizes for many type of insulation types:

https://www.omnicable.com/technical-resources/dielectric-constants-of-insulations

Personally I value understanding the specifics for these type of recommendations. Helps me make better decisions as to products to focus on in my speaker refurbishment efforts....

Does the insulation jacket diameter have an impact if one selects one of the better rated wire insulation materials?

It's difficult enough to find pure copper wire (is this really 99% pure copper?) let alone with the polyethylene or Teflon insulation.. but I do understand the impact of the insulator on signal clarity.

Regarding AWG. You call out 16AWG (solid core preferred but stranded is an option to test/compare) on all drivers (I assume positive and negative leads) plus internally on the crossover build as needed. I seem to recall in one of Danny's video's he mentioned that using a smaller gauge on tweeters... had something to do with the ability of the wire to carry the higher frequencies on the surface of the conductor more efficiently? Did I  get that wrong?

So my question is - why 16AWG wire? what is it about that gauge wire that works well in our speaker projects?

And, beyond GR Research are there other suppliers to consider acquiring this high quality wire from? I'd like to try and retain the wire colors used by Cerwin Vega for the drivers in these vintage cabinets.

Thank you

[FullRangeMan]

So my question is - why 16AWG wire?
It may be a question of price.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Hobbs,

Thank you, this is the type of info I was hoping for... I've done a bit more research and found several web sites that address this topic and this site has a nice chart that summarizes for many type of insulation types:

https://www.omnicable.com/technical-resources/dielectric-constants-of-insulations

Personally I value understanding the specifics for these type of recommendations. Helps me make better decisions as to products to focus on in my speaker refurbishment efforts....

Does the insulation jacket diameter have an impact if one selects one of the better rated wire insulation materials?

Yes, thinner sleeving is generally better, but it is also more likely to get scratched, torn or worn-through over time if it gets too thin. And the pigments/dyes used in the sleeving can also have an affect as well.

It's difficult enough to find pure copper wire (is this really 99% pure copper?) let alone with the polyethylene or Teflon insulation.. but I do understand the impact of the insulator on signal clarity.

That is true, we have to have our wire custom made for that reason. most of the wire with a Teflon coating is typically silver-coated copper (often called "military grade")

Regarding AWG. You call out 16AWG (solid core preferred but stranded is an option to test/compare) on all drivers (I assume positive and negative leads) plus internally on the crossover build as needed. I seem to recall in one of Danny's video's he mentioned that using a smaller gauge on tweeters... had something to do with the ability of the wire to carry the higher frequencies on the surface of the conductor more efficiently? Did I  get that wrong?

No, you did hear correctly there can a benefit to smaller gauge wire in the tweeter, as large gauge wire may develop the electrical equivalent of "standing waves" within the wire, than can affect clarity, also larger gauge cables are more likely to develop skin effect issues at lower frequencies. So you can easily use 18, 20 or 22 gauge wire on a tweeter circuit, same goes for the coils in the crossover itself, as there is often very little current at those frequencies. For a bass circuit, you can easily use larger gauge wire, like 14 or 12 gauge, but if using solid-core, it gets really stiff as you get larger.

So my question is - why 16AWG wire? what is it about that gauge wire that works well in our speaker projects?

And, beyond GR Research are there other suppliers to consider acquiring this high quality wire from? I'd like to try and retain the wire colors used by Cerwin Vega for the drivers in these vintage cabinets.

Thank you

We use 16 gauge as it's a good middle ground, and it matches the majority of our crossover components, especially the coils in the bass section.
We do have 14 gauge stranded wire for our subwoofers and have recently started using it on the bass section of the NX-Otica/Treme as well.

Partsconnexion, Madisound, and VHAudio are the only places that come to mind.

[PumaCat]

And, beyond GR Research are there other suppliers to consider acquiring this high quality wire from? I'd like to try and retain the wire colors used by Cerwin Vega for the drivers in these vintage cabinets.

Thank you

Cardas also makes excellent wire for these applications.

Here's a link to Cardas wire including hookup wire at PartsConnexion: https://partsconnexion.com/cardas-audio-collection/

I also used Cardas solder when I was soldering the crossover components for my X-LS Encores.

Here's a link for Cardas that also may be helpful: https://www.cardas.com/bulk-cable

[csconner58]

So to summarize my learning on this topic;

For the best signal clarity in the crossover wiring, use pure copper solid or stranded (at minimum solid in the crossover if short jumpers or interconnects are required) 16 AWG is a good choice...  Don't use "military grade" silver plated over a Cooper core or tinned Cooper as both will impact signal clarity especially on the higher frequencies.

Wire insulator should be either polyethylene or PTFE (Teflon) to minimize the impact of dielectric constant, on the signal clarity. Never use PVC, silicon is a better option than PVC but not as effective as polyethylene or Teflon. Use of a smaller gauge (18, 20, 22AWG) on the tweeter connection could be considered (this could be a method to slightly lower cost while still providing a clearer/cleaner signal based upon my initial search for these materials costs).

I wonder would it be acceptable to use Silicon insulated wire on the woofer connections if one was trying to hold cost down? It seems based upon the learning here that this might be an acceptable alternative? This connection might also benefit from a larger gauge wire such as 14/12 AWG.

I want to thank Hobbs, PumaCat, FullRangeMan and corndog for freely sharing their knowledge and experince on this topic.... I will apply this info as I proceed with my speaker refurbishment projects.

Thank you all!!!!

Craig

[Endo2112]

Have played with the the silver OCC from https://www.fyocc.com/, it’s excellent but you need to buy a roll I believe.

Don

[Stercom]

Great info Hobbs and nice summary csconner58! I, obviously, don't have as much experience as Hobbs and Danny but I totally agree with their findings. A pure copper or pure silver wire is the way to go. Plated or tinned wire sounds a little "hot" in my opinion.  Also, a cloth coated/oiled wire sounds a little more natural.  I've used Duelund in my projects over the years. They have a lot of choices.