Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. Read 4773 times.

AllanS

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 728
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #40 on: 10 Apr 2025, 10:24 am »
I just grabbed one of them on ebay.  I am psyched!

Now, I patiently look into streamers.

Thanks!

The BSN wouldn’t be a bad place to start especially if you can grab something like this. It’s about as risk free as buying used off the internet can be.  It’s offered by a long time and well regarded PS Audio forum member.  I would have bought it a long time ago if I had any need for it.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/for-sale-bluesound-node-2i/40690/7

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #41 on: 10 Apr 2025, 01:05 pm »
The RME DAC is technically excellent and has many digital features: a five-band parametric equalizer, wide-range quality volume control, balance control, and a choice of filters including NOS.

Seems to me most streamers are overpriced and they duplicate functions available at less expense in other equipment. I store the music library on a hard drive of the PC. If you have a router and a home wifi/Ethernet cable network, you can send music files from the computer to the network, to a receiving box like a Denon LinkHS2, which then connects by optical or coax cable to the RME DAC.

The analog signal out of the DAC can go to your preamp or directly to your amp.

Finally, you select the files or Internet streams to play with a controller app. BubbleUPnP is good on Android, but if you use an iPhone, there are similar apps available.
Good stuff - thanks!

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #42 on: 10 Apr 2025, 01:08 pm »
The BSN wouldn’t be a bad place to start especially if you can grab something like this. It’s about as risk free as buying used off the internet can be.  It’s offered by a long time and well regarded PS Audio forum member.  I would have bought it a long time ago if I had any need for it.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/for-sale-bluesound-node-2i/40690/7
Man, thanks Allan.  I'll have a look.  I'm a tad over budget now but I'll be patient.

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #43 on: 10 Apr 2025, 01:14 pm »
Yes and no. PS Audio DACs have similar names and trying to figure out the differences between the 2012, 2015 and 2023 models can get confusing. The rear labels look identical so you will have to trust the seller.

2012 - PS Audio PerfectWave MkII
2014 - PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream
2023 - PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream MkII. PS Audio discontinued the original DirectStream DAC in 2022, introducing its replacement, the DirectStream MK2, priced at $7999, in January 2023.

There is a big difference between the three models.

The 2012 PerfectWave MkII accepts asynchronous USB capable of 24/192 with a new Digital Lens to reduce jitter. There is no mention of DSD. This is a PCM only DAC.
The PerfectWave has 6 digital filters to choose from, an explanation of the filters is explained in the manual
https://www.aspera-audio.com/pdf/manuals/PerfectWave-MKII.pdf

The 2014 PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream accepts DSD and upsamples all inputs to DSD128.
2014 PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream D/A processor review
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor

The 2023 PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream MkII DAC USB input accepts: PCM 16 and 24 bits at 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz, 352.8kHz, and 705.6; DoP64, DoP128, DoP256, DSD64, DSD128, and DSD256. The DirectStream MkII uses a programmable FPGA chip that upsamples everything to DSD256. The previous DirectStream MkI model upsampled to only DSD128.

The DirectStream MkII is a state-of-the-art DAC. Upsampling both PCM and DSD to DSD256 is the sweet spot for a warm, analog sound. I upsample all my music to DSD256 but use a high powered music server, HQPlayer software into a HoloAudio May KTE DAC which is a non-oversampling DAC. I would expect both methods to sound very similar.


PS Audio did not make a PerfectWave DirectStream MkII DAC in 2015. I looked at PS Audio DACs for sale on eBay, read the descriptions carefully. I didn't see any $7999 DACs selling for $1600.

The Music Room has real DirectStream MkIIs for sale used with a DirectStream MkI for $1549 with guarantee and return policy. I buy from TMR all the time, they are a A+++ reseller.
https://tmraudio.com/search-results-page?q=ps%20audio%20dac
Yeah, WGH, that's the one I got (the one listed for 1549).

Thanks about your recommendation of TMR.  I see they have streamers for sale.

Man, you sure know your stuff!

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #44 on: 10 Apr 2025, 01:14 pm »
I can't answer you question as I only use my WiiM to stream from online sources and as an input for my CD player. There is a very active community forum that I can speak at length to your questions.

https://forum.wiimhome.com/
Thanks, DoubleJ.

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #45 on: 10 Apr 2025, 01:19 pm »
Congrats.  You are going to love the DAC.  There is a Transformer upgrade that you can do to the DAC that takes it to another level.  When they developed the DAC they considered using the better transformers but they decided against it due to cost.   They were build to a price point.  You can buy them I think for $80 each or for 2, I can't remember.  If my son buys the DSD DAC, we will do the upgrade.

Where do you live?  I live in the Twin Cities, if you are local, you can come over for a listen any day for the next 2 weeks as I am off work recovering from a knee replacement.  I should have asked this before you bought it.  Plus you would have been able to hear my Luxman DAC and my sons Chord Qutest.

Keep us posted on how you like it.  Make sure it has the latest software package.  It is excellent.
Man, that is quite an offer!

There is a ~95% chance, I am heading for my daughter who lives in the Chicago area.  If I go and it works for you, I'd love a quick visit.  Just so long as my stayover is beyond the Twin Cities.  I usually bunk up in Hudson, WI when I make my trek to my daughter's.

I'd like those transformers.  Sounds like too much gain for $80 to pass over.

Thank again!

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #46 on: 10 Apr 2025, 01:22 pm »
Border Patrol is also made in USA and has great customer service.  The owner/designer, Gary Dews, answers the phone and is great to talk to.
Of course, it's kind'a intuition as I have not tested these DAC's out.  But Border Patrol ended up #2.  I went into their site and it seems like a real nice unit to me.

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #47 on: 10 Apr 2025, 02:18 pm »
Congrats.  You are going to love the DAC.  There is a Transformer upgrade that you can do to the DAC that takes it to another level.  When they developed the DAC they considered using the better transformers but they decided against it due to cost.   They were build to a price point.  You can buy them I think for $80 each or for 2, I can't remember.  If my son buys the DSD DAC, we will do the upgrade.

Where do you live?  I live in the Twin Cities, if you are local, you can come over for a listen any day for the next 2 weeks as I am off work recovering from a knee replacement.  I should have asked this before you bought it.  Plus you would have been able to hear my Luxman DAC and my sons Chord Qutest.

Keep us posted on how you like it.  Make sure it has the latest software package.  It is excellent.
With your mention of being able to upgrade locally, I want to share something.

One of my tube amps was non-functional.  I internet searched for vacuum tube repair by location, figuring there had to be someone in the Chicago area and so I could manage my amps for a visit to my daughter.

https://www.thetubestore.com/amp-technicians

Very few choices in the States, but the guy in St Charles lives within walking distance of my daughter's house.  Talk about awesome!  I drop my stuff off for him to have a look-see when I go there.

For one example, before restoration, the capacitors were glued to the chassis.



Daryl Zero

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 373
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #48 on: 10 Apr 2025, 07:26 pm »
Man, that is quite an offer!

There is a ~95% chance, I am heading for my daughter who lives in the Chicago area.  If I go and it works for you, I'd love a quick visit.  Just so long as my stayover is beyond the Twin Cities.  I usually bunk up in Hudson, WI when I make my trek to my daughter's.

I'd like those transformers.  Sounds like too much gain for $80 to pass over.

Thank again!

Part of the modification that my PSAudio Directstream DAC mk1 has is the mk2's transformers. I don't know what the mk1's sound like but I really like the mk2's sound. Detailed but not analytical or harsh at all.

WGH

Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #49 on: 10 Apr 2025, 11:14 pm »
But Border Patrol ended up #2.  I went into their site and it seems like a real nice unit to me.

I love researching new technology and diving in to see where it leads me. Three years ago I wanted a new DAC. My Van Alstine Fet Valve Hybrid DAC still worked perfectly, sounded great, but only played 44.1 kHz and 96 kHz recordings, didn't play DSD and it was 10 years old. Hi-RES recordings were showing up everywhere and they were affordable. It was time to kick my hobby into high gear and explore the bleeding edge of recorded music.

2L-The Nordic Sound, Sound Liason, PS Audio Octave Records and Chesky Records to name a few, record and release recordings in hi-res formats. Carmen Gomes recordings on Sound Liason are recorded in 352kHz, mastered to both 352kHz and 768kHz and are available to buy in all hi-res formats, this is as close to a live mike feed as anyone will ever hear. Carmen's "Thousand Shades of Blue" in 768 kHz/32 bit clocks in at 16.3 GB. Octave Records SACD disks rip to DSD64 and average 1.75 GB. DXD352 kHz albums average 5.5 GB.

An average 44.1 kHz/16 bit Redbook recording is around 400 MB. All those extra bits are thrown away to make a Redbook file which can be from 23% to a only 2.5% the size of the original recording. I wanted to hear what the original recordings sounded like.



I haven't heard a Border Patrol DAC, based on reviews it sounds great. Three guys in our audio group have ANK (Audio Note) DACs, two 5.1 Signatures and a 2.1, all heavily modified with premium parts, they sound great too. All those DACs are NOS but can only play 44.1 kHz to 96 kHz recordings. Not the direction I wanted to go. Maybe the ANK vs HoloAudio shootout will happen this year, logistics and egos have to be negotiated.

The Sound Advocate has a thoughtful review of the Border Patrol SE-i DAC and compares it to an ANK DAC although not the higher level 5.1 Signature or 2.1.
https://www.thesoundadvocate.com/2022/07/borderpatrol-se-i-dac-fully-assessed/

The reviewer (like many audiophiles) doesn't think hi-res is necessary for musical enjoyment.
"Another interesting thing about the BorderPatrol SE-i DAC is that it only converts PCM (pulse code modulation) digital at sampling frequencies of 44.1K, 48K, 88.2K, and 96K. No ridiculous 192K. No fancy-schmancy DSD. No MQA decoding (thank goodness!). This DAC is for the Audiophile Purist!"


Ted Smith, PS Audio's lead developer may disagree: In August 2020, Ted Smith talked about the NOS Philips TDA 1543 chip in the BorderPatrol NOS DAC (and still used in 2025). His comment reminded me of my first DAC, a Scott Nixon Tube DAC I bought used in 2006 that also used the Philips TDA 1543 chip. The SN Tube DAC was a NOS design with no digital filter. The sound was pleasant but eventually I became bored because the music just laid there, there was no PRaT, and now I know why. The Van Alstine Insight I bought in 2008 was livelier but still rough around the edges compared to modern DACs.

6Moons has a review of the Scott Nixon Tube DAC
https://6moons.com/audioreviews/nixon/tubedac.html


Ted writes:

“It’s [Philips TDA 1543] a very simple chip. For people who want NOS or R-2R style DACs it’s great. Also most people don’t seem to read the datasheet, the chip requires an opamp to meet its specs (which aren’t great), but many simply use resistors on its outputs which adds a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion and restricts the dynamic range.

"If your favorite music doesn’t have a lot of high frequencies and it doesn’t get too loud, the chip works well.

"Without an output filter the timing and waveshape of impulses is lost and PRaT will suffer, but if the original recording is already rolled off this won’t be a problem.
I suspect most people that really enjoy orchestral or, say, grunge [or rock] would be disappointed, but jazz trios, women’s solo voice, etc. should sound fine.”


There's a lot more info about why PS Audio decided to upsample all digital music here:

An Upsampling Primer or Why Make More Bits?
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183465.msg1926276#msg1926276

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #50 on: 15 Apr 2025, 07:26 pm »
I received the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC!

Thanks all for your inputs.  They are much appreciated.

I'll be back.  I'll eventually want to get a pair of the better transformers and I do remember someone talking about a "USB filter" which may very well have relevance to my operation.

Now to find the right streamer.

Thanks again.

genjamon

Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #51 on: 15 Apr 2025, 10:48 pm »
In response to WGH (hey Wayne!), I’m also a fellow former owner of the Scott Nixon DAC, but also of the first gen Border Patrol, a battery powered DDDAC with premium parts, a first gen DB Audio Tranquility, and a hot-rodded DB Audio Tranquility SE. all of these use the same 1543 chip.

My take is that the Ted Smith take is fairly accurate for several of these.  The Scott Nixon was the most extreme in this regard. It was objectively muddy sounding. The first gen Border Patrol and Tranqukity units were probably in a similar league, a notch or two above the Scott Nixon in clarity. Both of them created music that was pleasant, even if fuzzy around the edges and not that refined, but also not bright or etched - in other words warm but a bit distorted and unrefined.

The battery powered DDDAC was not as fuzzy and was warm - had a “lit from within” kind of sound.  The Tranquility SE brought another level of clarity to the table, with none of the fuzziness or distortion of the other designs, and not lacking in highs.

I guess my point is that I generally agree with Ted Smith’s assessment as to most of the 1543 designs, but I wouldn’t agree regarding the Tranquility SE, and possibly a really well implemented DDDAC. As with most things in audio, circuit design and implementation usually means a lot more to the ultimate sound than the DAC chip used. 

morganc

Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #52 on: 16 Apr 2025, 02:01 am »
I’ve owned those speakers and your best upgrade is the speaker.  Go up to any newer Spatial model for a dramatic increase in quality IMO. 

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #53 on: 16 Apr 2025, 12:51 pm »
I’ve owned those speakers and your best upgrade is the speaker.  Go up to any newer Spatial model for a dramatic increase in quality IMO.
My new DAC not a better upgrade?

But, yeah, how I wish I had a Sapphire.

dls123

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 138
    • Citation Restoration
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #54 on: 16 Apr 2025, 03:10 pm »
Hi,

I have been planning a stereo upgrade for some time now.  I am an older fellow on a limited budget.  So far, I have saved $2,000 but would be willing to go a bit higher.

My present system:
Two Dynaco M3 tube amps, fully restored.
Melos GK1+1 tube preamp, fully restored
Spatial Audio M3 Hologram Turbo speakers
Apogee Ensemble DAC
Apple Minimac – holds music files and uses Channel D Pure Music and Itunes

I would like to upgrade by replacing the last two items.  I want to get a streamer and DAC and I seek advice on what to get and why.

Regarding the Apogee Ensemble, it’s on the old side.  I got it at the advice of Clayton.  I needed more than two output connections as my speakers were his Emerald Physics CS2’s and they require bi-amping.

Regarding the Apple Minimac – All I know is Channel D is old software.  It is only compatible with a fairly old Mac OS version.  It seems to me it is not used a whole lot anymore?

I realize I am ignorant.  For example, I have no idea how people generally stream, where audio files are typically held, if a computer continues to generally be used.  (If I had to use a computer, I’d opt for Linux myself, supposing I can have the same quality as other options.)

The closest location for testing audio is 6 hours away (Twin Cities).  I live in an extremely rural area of South Dakota.  Meaning: being able to test is not really feasible.

In order to leverage as much as I can, I think I prefer to buy used.

I anticipate this may be my final stereo upgrade, but one never knows!

Hi.  I have stayed out of this so far... but some questions.  I see you got a much nicer DAC, good for you.  So what are you hearing?  With your original query, what is it that you hear from your system, and what do you wish to improve sonically?  For example, does it sound a bit bright?  Or does it have loose bass?  Do instruments sound real to you?  What sort of music do you listen to?   You have some classic vintage tube gear in the chain.  You said they were fully restored.  So that will make them stable.  I know the Dyna Mk3 schematic, but the Melos is not easily found on line.   The Dyna can be improved with much better driver section, and of course the coupling caps in both the amps and preamps will seriously affect the sonics.  So it depends on what the person who restored them used.  Same with power supply.  There are little tricks that will improve things in the Dyna and I have no idea whether the person who worked on them knew those things, or simply put new parts in the same circuit.  The later is fine and will make the amps stable and long-lasting, but may not get everything out of them.  The Melos... well it uses really high gain tubes and if you are not using phono, then you can probably do better there.  Again, no idea what coupling caps are in there.  Of course both the amps and preamp sound will vary with the tubes you choose as well.  So there are lots of variables.

Again, is there something you don't like about the sound or are you just going for a general upgrade?  Your new DAC, and some sort of decent quality streamer will certainly give you better sound than you have.  There are crossover upgrades to the speaker no doubt as well.  So how does the new DAC sound? 

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #55 on: 16 Apr 2025, 04:17 pm »
I received the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC!

Thanks all for your inputs.  They are much appreciated.

I'll be back.  I'll eventually want to get a pair of the better transformers and I do remember someone talking about a "USB filter" which may very well have relevance to my operation.

Now to find the right streamer.

Thanks again.

If you live 6 hours away from the Twin Cities and want to do the transformer upgrades and are not comfortable doing it yourself, I have an EE friend that can do the upgrades.  He fixes broken audio gear and is an owner of the PS Audio DSD dac.   Let me know and I can put you in contact with him.  He lives in the twin cities and is current doing some work for me.  He is also on this forum.  He is fair and honest and does great work.

Please let us know how you like the DAC.

Larry

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #56 on: 16 Apr 2025, 06:13 pm »
Hi.  I have stayed out of this so far... but some questions.  I see you got a much nicer DAC, good for you.  So what are you hearing?  With your original query, what is it that you hear from your system, and what do you wish to improve sonically?  For example, does it sound a bit bright?  Or does it have loose bass?  Do instruments sound real to you?  What sort of music do you listen to?   You have some classic vintage tube gear in the chain.  You said they were fully restored.  So that will make them stable.  I know the Dyna Mk3 schematic, but the Melos is not easily found on line.   The Dyna can be improved with much better driver section, and of course the coupling caps in both the amps and preamps will seriously affect the sonics.  So it depends on what the person who restored them used.  Same with power supply.  There are little tricks that will improve things in the Dyna and I have no idea whether the person who worked on them knew those things, or simply put new parts in the same circuit.  The later is fine and will make the amps stable and long-lasting, but may not get everything out of them.  The Melos... well it uses really high gain tubes and if you are not using phono, then you can probably do better there.  Again, no idea what coupling caps are in there.  Of course both the amps and preamp sound will vary with the tubes you choose as well.  So there are lots of variables.

Again, is there something you don't like about the sound or are you just going for a general upgrade?  Your new DAC, and some sort of decent quality streamer will certainly give you better sound than you have.  There are crossover upgrades to the speaker no doubt as well.  So how does the new DAC sound?
Oh boy, I'll have to respond to this later.

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #57 on: 16 Apr 2025, 06:16 pm »
If you live 6 hours away from the Twin Cities and want to do the transformer upgrades and are not comfortable doing it yourself, I have an EE friend that can do the upgrades.  He fixes broken audio gear and is an owner of the PS Audio DSD dac.   Let me know and I can put you in contact with him.  He lives in the twin cities and is current doing some work for me.  He is also on this forum.  He is fair and honest and does great work.

Please let us know how you like the DAC.

Larry
Yeah, I think I'd like to do that.

As to hearing the DAC, I attempted to give it a go yesterday and realized I lack the cables for my MiniMac to the DAC and so I just figured I would patiently wait for the streamer upgrade, which will be awhile due to financial restraints.

Quick question.  Do streamers impact sound quality?  I thought not since I assumed a streamer gets the audio file, fully intact, to the DAC.

Some of my spelling mistakes are ridiculous!  I had audiophile and not audio file - sheesh!

genjamon

Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #58 on: 16 Apr 2025, 06:24 pm »
Yeah, I think I'd like to do that.

As to hearing the DAC, I attempted to give it a go yesterday and realized I lack the cables for my MiniMac to the DAC and so I just figured I would patiently wait for the streamer upgrade, which will be awhile due to financial restraints.

Quick question.  Do streamers impact sound quality?  I thought not since I assumed a streamer gets the audiophile, fully intact, to the DAC.

Looks like the Apogee DAC uses a firewire connection rather than USB?  Interesting.  Don't you have a spare USB cable somewhere in the house you can use to at least try out the PS Audio with your Mac Mini?  If you don't, a quick Amazon purchase should be in order for a cheap USB cable in the interim.  If I were you, I'd want to at least verify the PS Audio is working correctly.

If you wanted to try something higher quality, I'm sure a WTB posting in the Trading Post would yield a large number of options.  Most folks have bins of various types of extra cables hanging around that they'd be willing to part with.  I know I do.   

o2b

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: Looking for Help With Streamer and DAC Upgrades
« Reply #59 on: 16 Apr 2025, 08:35 pm »
Looks like the Apogee DAC uses a firewire connection rather than USB?  Interesting.  Don't you have a spare USB cable somewhere in the house you can use to at least try out the PS Audio with your Mac Mini?  If you don't, a quick Amazon purchase should be in order for a cheap USB cable in the interim.  If I were you, I'd want to at least verify the PS Audio is working correctly.

If you wanted to try something higher quality, I'm sure a WTB posting in the Trading Post would yield a large number of options.  Most folks have bins of various types of extra cables hanging around that they'd be willing to part with.  I know I do.

Sure can't argue giving my DAC a shot with the Mini.

OK, I see that I have a USB : USB 3 cable.  Hooked everything up and the DAC asked for digital input type and now has an alphanumeric keypad awaiting entry.  Unsure how to proceed and obligations call.  I'll try to figure out how to "get" the DAC to "see" the Mini's digital input.

Thanks!