[douglasmkatz]

Hi all-I'm currently running my super 3s with an ARC SP 6C preamp and a Sohpia Baby amp.  I'm curious about SETs, but have been warned that at 93db such low power might be disappointing. What do you folks think?

Might I be better off with a higher power push/pull design?  Would an SET with a sub be my best bet?  If so, what do people recommend-Wright 3.5, Fi X, Decware, etc.?

Thanks so much.

Douglas

[Dmason]

>>-------------------------->Red Wine Audio Clari-T

World Class Midrange, single-ended sparkle, with silicon kick. Does real bass. Well-documented and outstanding synergy with Fostex drivers. Zero tube hassle, 6 Clydesdale-sized watts, LOVES 4 Ohm loads, and a TON of Omega/Red Wine happy campers singing in unison.

I'm using one with Fostex FE166esr BLH, FE168EZ 24L, and couldn't be happier.

Former Lay reader of the Thermionic Gospel,  cantor of the Litany of the Meshplates, Single-Ended Church of the Transmitter Tube (and big fan of Father O'Mega's wide-ranging musical outreach program)

[MarcD in NYC]

Dmason has it right with the Clari-T.  Great option for the Super 3's without a doubt.  In fact, I question if there is any amp that could drive the Super 3's better.  But I don't want to discredit your curiousity with tubes. I have looked into all the same amps you have listed, and came very close to purchasing both a Wright and a Fi before taking the plunge on the Clari-T.  I also run my pair of 3's with a Antique Sound Labs integrated that uses a pair of KT88's... it has a pentode/triode switch.  While this isn't the same as 2a3's or 300b's... I can say that I never use my Super 3's in the quasi triode mode (5 watts per channel).  It just isn't enough for them.  I do run them in the pentode mode which is 15 watts per channel.  This is very satisfying, and really does amazing things with vocals and acoustic instruments.

Bottom line is the Clari-T matches really well with the things that the Super 3's do best... speed and clarity.  Female vocals sound amazing and natural, well recorded piano can make your heart flutter right in your chest.  But my favorite thing as of last weekend (and I recommend it to anyone willing to try) is the sound of Daniel Lanois' latest album Shine. Vocals, slide guitar, eerie mixing, ... it will transport you to another place.

[toxteth ogrady]

Well, I agree with the others that a Clari-t will mate very well with the Super 3R's, but since you asked specifically about SET's let me make another inexpensive recommendation... the 4.5 watt Almarro A205A integrated. Holy shnap, this thing is magical with the Super 3R's... and for only $800 new. Get a good fast sub and you'll be amazed. It's not a true triode but it has all of strengths of a triode presentation without any of the weaknesses. As long as you don't listen over 80db (gets kind of ragged when pushed) and your listening room isn't bigger than say 175 sq ft, it's just the ticket. Go to 6moons to find the review on this amp... I totally agree with the reviewer.

[Paul_Bui]

I would talk with Louis about it.  Although I have never heard the Super 3s, I heard a lot about their synergy with ClariT.  Also, I trust toxteth ogrady's ears (we've met recently), so I would give the Almaro integrated a listen.

Personally, I would order a ClariT with Black Gates upgrade right from the start.  If you already have a good preamp, skip the passive volume control.  Skip it anyway, get a good tube preamp, use it with the upgraded ClariT, and you'll have a world-class sounding rig.  Have more time and patience?  Get a stock one, enjoy listening to it for 3-4 months and send it back for upgrades later, like me and several others.

Even though my speakers are not even as high efficient as the Super 3s (only 90 db), I was happy with the stock ClariT and am VERY satisfied with the upgraded ClariT monoblocks.  Thanks Dmason (Dan) for letting us know in the first place about the little giant-killer amp.

Oh by the way, if you're always used to the "holographic" sound of tubes, you might either be prepared to the apparent "flatness" of the ClariT's representation (due to its flat frequency response), or just decide to stay with tubes and forget about the new chip amp technology.  I have both Decware flagship tube monoblocks and Nelson Pass' FirstWatt F1, but the ClariT,  in either stock or modded form, just won my ears and heart.

[ohenry]

Hi Douglas,
I'd love to hear the Decware Taboo's 6 watts, adjustable feedback and output tube swapping capabilities with a single-driver speaker.  Supposedly, it has a very "live" sound, killer imaging and is quiet.

[Tralfaz]

Douglas:

I've no experience with the Clari-T (yet), so I can't speak to its synergy with the Super 3.

That said, I've tried 4 tube amps with my Super 3Rs/REL Storm 3 sub/Louis's Omega tweeters: a pair of EAR 509 IIs, a Bez T3-B, the Almarro A205-A, and the Fi X 2A3.  For what it's worth, here are my impressions:

The EARs are 100 Watt, tube mono amps I''ve owned for many years. Very neutral and powerful, they sounded fine with the 3Rs but left me wanting more "life" from reproduced music.  They were a great match with my Quad 63s, before old age caught up with the Quads and forced me to move on.

The Bez is an inexpensive, Chinese-made 300B SET.  Plenty of power and a great midrange, but very constricted at the frequency extremes.  A decent but not great match.

The Almarro is a different beast entirely.  Again, they have more than enough power (4.5 W/ch) to drive the 3Rs.  They throw a great soundstage and are very dynamic.  They are also very sensitive to the type of input tube (12AX7) used.  By doing some judicious (and inexpensive) tube rolling here you can take an already good amp and make it an excellent amp (or make it sound so bright as to force the cat to run from the room).  YMMV.  It is also an EL84 amp, like your Sophia but here it's a single tube per channel (a single-ended pentode, if you will).

Saving the best (IMO) for last, I am currently using the Fi X 2A3 to drive my speakers.  In my room (12'x17' with 8' ceilings) it has never "run out of gas", even with demanding recordings played at loud levels.  It possesses a tonal richness unmatched by the other amps and is very extended at both frequency exremes.  It resolves low-level detail well and places solid images in a wide and deep soundfield.  Is it the most accurate?  I don't know, but it definitely is my favorite amp with the Super 3R's.  As an added benefit, the amp alllows me to use 45-type output tubes, which cut the output to 2 Watts but offer a slightly more "colorful" presentation.  I usually stick to 2A3s, but it's nice to have the option...

I've found the Super 3Rs to be very revealing speakers, with changes in sources, cables, amps. and even tubes quite apparent.  Whichever amp you end up trying, you may be confident the speakers will honestly show off its strengths.

Best of luck!

Tralfaz

[toxteth ogrady]

Hi Tralfaz

I've been itchin' to hear the Fi. Just out of curiosity, are you using the integrated version of the Fi-X? If not, are you using Don Garbers pre?

[JLM]

I've heard the Super 3s, Taboo, Fi-X, and own the Clari-T (the Taboo and Clari-T are the only ones here that I've been able to hear together or A/B).  The Taboo lacks power, clarity, bass extension, or bass control of the Clari-T with my 90 dB/w/m, 30 - 20,000 Hz speakers.  I heard the Fi-X with unknown speakers/source/material/room so I really can't comment, but Decware and Moth Audio amps were more impressive.

I really like the Super 3s.  And like Paul I use the Clari-T with the same 90 dB/w/m Fostex based floorstanding mass loaded transmission line speakers.  Frankly these speakers could use a bit more juice, but depending on your taste and room size, the Clari-T should provide about the right amount of power for the Super 3's (if you own the Super 3's you're probably not into high output, rock monitoring sort of listening anyway, right?).

IMO most tube amps don't do bass well as they are either lacking in deep bass or the bass is severely underdamped.  Deep bass response isn't a big deal with the Super 3's, but why get into an amp that has pretty obvious limitations?  The Clari-T provides incredible dynamics, bass control, and clarity.

[Doc Jr 8156]

I might be the odd man out here but if you are thinking of "digital" based amp, why limit yourself to low powered ones when in the future if you change speakers specially the not so efficient ones the low powered digital amp they are suggesting here won't cut it. Imagine the headroom-rserve on those the low powered digital amps.  Just a point of reference, I have the FT2000A too (Bob Brines).

I will take the Nuforce amps anyday.  100 watts of power,  monoblocks , analog switching, almost triple the damping factor of any digital based amp available and almost triple their bandwidth too. No phase shift, efficient, no charging required, upgradeable, and sounds amazing.  I had 3 tube amps based on 6BQ5, EL-34 and 300B as well as an Odyssey Extreme Stratos and a Sonic Impact amp.  The Nuforce forced me to sell most of them.  The Sonic Impact amp is now doing garage duty hooked to my 168EZ horns.  Just my opinion.  Godspeed.

[ohenry]

One more digi amp to consider since your choices are so limited...  
 
I just built an amp 3 from 41Hz that's based on the tripath TA2021 chip and it sounds very nice.  A bit more power than the TA2024.  Wayne at Bolder is starting to produce these things if you're interested and don't want the frustration of tiny parts soldering, etc.

[-Richard-]

Hi Doc Jr,

Please go into the Nuforce amps a bit more to help
us get a better sense of what these amps are doing
so well...also if you have any information about the
Nuforce amps internal design technology that may
further our understanding of the amps unique qualities
that would be nice to hear as well...

I am interested and intrigued...specifically Doc:
Are you using a pre with the Nuforce...if so which one...
what is the difference between your tube amps and
the Nuforce in real terms...what kind of music do you
listen to, that may help us to get a sense of what you
are listening for...

Personally I am not committed to any technology per se...
Each amplifier design topology if implemented with
intelligence and sensitivity does some things very well...
my Wright Audio (no longer in business) plays on my
Grand 8's like a highly touted $40,000 tube design...
it cost me $700. new and uses rather common tubes...

No digital can touch it for where it plays...none that I have
heard so far!

However I love what the digital amps can do...but mostly
in relationship to transistor amps...although I would easily
take some digital amps over many tube designs as well...
not necessarily SEP's or SET's mind you...

Transistor amps never sound quite right to me...too glary and
forced...like a singer who is trying too hard...not all the time...
but there always comes a time when the music gathers into
an emotional arch when things get hard and opaque sounding...
it was Deb who made me aware of this...her hearing is far more
sensitive than mine...transistor amps sound like chalk on a
blackboard to her...

I am certain there are exceptions to this rule...but I suspect that
one would have to throw a great deal of money at a transistor
amp that really solved that particular problem of hardness...
and it seems as if they are all trying pretty hard to do just that...

Having said that I know with the right kind of synergy...if everything
else in ones system is leaning toward the warm and palpable...
that a transistor amp might melt more acceptably into the musical
fabric...then there is the simple fact that certain kinds of music
just sound better with specific amplifier designs...

But digital when done right easily surpasses the transistor fair that
I have heard and many of the tube stuff also...I suspect that one day
soon we will see a digital amp that brings a richness to the music
that up until now has been the exclusive domain of tubes-done-right...

Perhaps the Nuforce is moving in that direction...
So Doc...can you enlighten us further on the Nuforce?

Thanks for your help. Warm regards -Richard-

[JLM]

Doc,

Yes please go on and describe the NuForce amps.  I'd be interested (I know that the extra headroom would be useful with the FTA-2000s).  

Obviously the Clari-T cost far less than the NuForce amps and has the best possible power supply to these fussy digital circuits (batteries!).

But I'm also curious how they compare to the new Channel Island Audio Digital monoblocks (that weigh 5 times as much and look much better built for the same price with the same power rating produced by a well respected guy).  

Perhaps the best compromise for me would be Vinnie's modded battery powered 30 wpc Teac digital amp (cheaper yet battery powered, half way between the Clari-T and NuForce in terms of dBs of gain).

[-Richard-]

Hi JLM,

Choosing a digital amp may turn out to be more complex
than we would prefer it to be...a tube SET amp designer of
merit once told me that is was the implementation of the
circuit that made all the difference in the sound and
performance of a superior tube amp...

I suspect that is how the next generations of superior digital
amps will separate themselves from the their predecessors...
by implementing circuit designs that somehow allow the digital
chips to really make music...not just satisfy a laundry list of
"qualities" that we crave...which for cheap digital amps is
more than enough...but for higher priced amps is not entirely
acceptable...

In this sense we may not be able to look at specs alone to see
what our system needs and simply purchase the digital amp
that seems to come closest to it...

Right now the field is somewhat narrow...but that will soon change as
transistor and perhaps even tube amp designers wake up and realize that
there is a burgeoning market for this new technology that understands the
benefits of it...

Then a host of new strategies will appear that will attempt to pull the magic
out of these chips...I am looking forward to each attempt with a keen
interest...

Please keep us informed JLM, of your experiences with the Channel Island
Audio Digital monoblocks...if you get the chance to audition them....

Warm regards -Richard-

[Doc Jr 8156]

Hi all,
Well, it will be hard for me to go into details of the design of the Nuforce amps because they are proprietary.  Please visit their website  and read their description and maybe you can get the jist of their technology.  All I know is that the Nuforce amps are designed from the ground up and no other amp in the world share their technology.  The designer even designed the power supply himself.

I listen to pop, light rock, jazz, classical and big bands.  Suffice it to say that the Nuforce's 100 watt is more than enough to power my FT2000A but subtle enough for me to listen during late night tryst.  I use a Bent audio TVC as preamp and need no more than 3/4 of my volume knob to make my room (18 X 28 feet X 10 feet high) filled with music.

I have no experience in comparing the Nuforce to the CI amp but I compared mine to my custom 300B (in my horn), 6BQ5 Pp amp, EL-34 PP 40 watt amp, CJ Premier 11, Odyssey Stratos Extremes, Mc Intosh 1700, Threshold 500 and my Sonic Impact.  As I mentioned earlier, most of the amps I owned (see list) were sold after I listened to the Nuforce.

Just to give my personal assessment of the Nuforce sound; it sounded much ,  much clearer than any amp I heard, bass notes which I seldom noticed from a recording where there in spades, the soundstage of my listening room was multiplied by 2, the midrange was much better than all my tube amps.  Godspeed.

[Louis O]

Hi everyone,

Great posts and I would like add my vote for the Clari t. I think it's a amazing match for the Super 3s. If I were to go with 2A3s the choice would be the Fi or the Bottlehead amps. Price and performance wise, they knock down the doors of much more expensive gear.

I have heard them all and I have no problems with the amount of output.

Thanks again,
Louis

[onemug]

I have had a Fi 2a3//Super3r combo for 6 months now. It does not even come close to embarassing itself against some 15,000 monoblocks and Maggie 3.6's or Apogee Duettas that I've had for years. The Audio world should be grateful that such equipment exists today for such a reasonable price. Thank you Louis!  Recently I was able to demo a Lotus/Clari-T for a week with my Super 3r's. It was a wonderful match. Easy to listen to for hours. Lots of non-fatiguing detail, (oxy-moron)? One note, I had the Omegas for 6 months before the Fi, so they are well broken in. I don't think you can go wrong with either kind of amp. If you trust your instincts, and you should, then evaluating stuff will either draw you in or repulse you. The Fi's/Omegas/Lotus-Clari-T all draw me in.

[-Richard-]

Hi Onemug,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful insights about your
Omega speakers and the Fi 2A3 and ClariT and Lotus
amps...very nicely thought out and revealing...and very
helpful as well.

I have a number of questions I would like to ask you.

Which Fi 2A3 do you have? And can you go into the
differences between the Fi and the ClariT a bit more?...
any further insights you may have would be of keen
interest to me and I am certain other members of these
threads that are looking for the same audio magic and
synergy as we are.

Thanks for your help.

Warm regards -Richard-

[onemug]

Hi Richard, Thanks back at you.

  I have the Fi 2a3 mono's. One neat thing about them is by using a 5y3 rectifier you can use 45 type tubes in them. Kind of like having 2 amps for the price of 1.  As for the differences between the Fi's and the Clari-T,  the C sounded a little cleaner. SET's are known to have that 2nd harmonic thing going for them.  I don't know if that's what I was hearing but the C seemed to have a little more detail, the Fi's a little richer, both in the good sense, not distracting.

   Both of these amps get the tone right for me mated the Super 3's.  Some other well known amps, and much more expensive, have sounded a little too sharp for me. Maybe they would have been fine with another type of speaker.  I tend to see the amp/speaker interface as a whole organic thing. Dr. Gizmo would be proud. Hope this helps.

[-Richard-]

Hi onemug,

Thanks for the further insights...deeply appreciate it.

Right now it seems that tubes help to saturate the harmonic
structure of the music for me...at least my Pentoid Single Ended
Wright Audio (no longer in business) does that...and also stimulates
the signal with a dynamic entry into the nervous system...which I
interpret as "real"...meaning that it does not sound mechanical...
a sound I find myself deeply craving at this time...

The well moded ClariT (and perhaps other digital amps...I have not heard
them all) move the music into an"otherworldly" clarity of tone and ultimately
could be developed/designed to play music with incredible refinement...

I always thought I craved refinement as the most important structural component
of the musics audio life...but for now it is the saturation of the harmonic that
moves me...when music is thoroughly saturated with a richness tonally and
harmonically it convinces my nervous system that something essential is being
experienced...and I cannot do without it...

So there seems to be two directions here in music reproduction which your
Fi amplifier and ClariT do so well...and presumably you move back and forth
between the two which must keep your musical palette alive and curious.

Thanks again onemug...I wish I could hear the Fi on my Omega Grand 8 R's...
I am certain it would be enlightening!

Any further insights would be most appreciated.

Warm regards -Richard-