[lloydVIII]

Hi everyone,
I'm currently using an Oppo BDP105 as a SACD transport in my system, connected to my Bryston BDA-3 DAC and BP-26 preamp (sending the digital DSD stream from the Oppo via HDMI to the BDA-3). Until recently this setup delivered the best audio qaulity in my system - better than streaming.

Now I upgraded my streaming chain by replacing a Cambridge Audio CXN v2 with a Bryston BDP-3. Now the audio quality of my streaming chain surpasses the SACD playback in many ways. So I'm looking to upgrade my SACD playback. I see three ways to go:

.) Modding my current Oppo. I think there are still some dealers who offer linear power supplies and better clocks for the Oppo 105, p.e. Oppomod in South Corea. Pros: Can use my existing device, low cost. Cons: Upgrade quality is limited.

.) Get a Oppo 203 and get it modded. Again Oppomod offers the upgrade into a "ultimate SACD transport". Pros: Best quality while continuing using the BDA-3 as a DAC. Cons: expensive, needs new (used) device and some effort, wrong color.

.) Switching to a standalone SACD player. Give up the use of the BDA-dac for SACD and buy a standalone player from Accuphase, Esoteric or another good brand (of course used, I buy only second hand). Pros: Could surpasse the BDA-3 dac. Bad: Expensive and - good or bad - totally new sound signature.

That's it. Which way would you go? Can you think of a different and better approach? How do you handle SACD playback in a Bryston-based system?

Note: I'm located in Europe. I cant buy an already modded Oppo in the US because the power supply wouldnt fit. I looked for Oppo modders who are still in the business and provide gear that I can used in Europe but couldnt find much. ModWright p.e. doesnt do Oppo anymore so it seems.

Thank you for all your advice, and Happy New Year!
Alois

[WGH]

Can you think of a different and better approach? How do you handle SACD playback in a Bryston-based system?

I have a different and better approach but it requires a totally new mindset. I ripped all my SACDs using an Oppo BDP-103 and put the digital files in a music server (with backups of course). SACD rips to DSD 64 which the Bryston BDA-3 DAC will play via HDMI or USB.

The advantage is potentially superior sound with no more spinning parts to wear out plus the ability to download and play very high quality recordings up to DSD256. The disadvantage is you have to learn a new language and skill.

2L appears to have changed the formats available to download. I have a 17 track sampler I put together when they offered free sample tracks, many are DSD256. I no longer see the that option in their shop.
https://www.2l.no/

Start here:
Rip SACD with a Blu-ray player
https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/rip-sacd-with-a-blu-ray-player.3652/

An Audiophile Style review talks about using the BDA-3 DAC with digital files
Bryston BDA-3 DAC Review
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/bryston-bda-3-dac-review/

[lloydVIII]

I have a different and better approach but it requires a totally new mindset. I ripped all my SACDs using an Oppo BDP-103 and put the digital files in a music server (with backups of course). SACD rips to DSD 64 which the Bryston BDA-3 DAC will play via HDMI or USB.

Thank you for pointing that out. I'm aware of this possibility and to get familiar with the ripping procedure is on my todo list. Perhaps this will shift my mindset as you suggested. As of now I think I'm not prepared to leave the ,physical world' behind. I want a good device to enjoy my CD and SACD collection and maybe expand it even further. DSD downloads are certainly a nice additional option.

Also, thank you for the links! 

[WGH]

Now I upgraded my streaming chain by replacing a Cambridge Audio CXN v2 with a Bryston BDP-3. Now the audio quality of my streaming chain surpasses the SACD playback in many ways.

You must have better streaming in Europe than we do. I have always been disappointed by the sound quality of streaming music. I had the Tidal HiRes for a year the the sound was always only adequate for background music. That was a couple of years ago when Tidal was doing some secret strange MQA digital manipulation in the background, maybe Tidal's HiRes FLAC 24bit, 192kHz streaming is better now.

Have you double checked your connections? SACD (DSD64) is only available through HDMI 2 OUT (assuming the BDP-105 DSD OUT is the same as the BDP-103). Any other connection will output the 192kHz PCM layer.

Bryston BDA-3 DAC Review - Stereophile
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-bda-3-da-processor-setting-digital-source-components-output-dsd

"My Oppo BDP-103 BD/SACD/CD player had to be set up to output DSD64 from SACDs. To view the Oppo's internal setup menu, I attached a small TV monitor to the diagnostic video output connector on its rear panel. Using the remote handset, I then selected "SACD Priority" and "stereo output," to override the player's default multichannel/PCM factory settings. Then I connected an HDMI cable to the Oppo's HDMI Out 2 jack—not its HDMI Out 1 jack, which is not wired to pass along DSD. Only when all that was done would the Oppo output the DSD64 file of "Breathe," from the SACD of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon."
—Larry Greenhill


A lot of music is being re-mastered. Maybe the streaming music is actually better sounding than the early SACD mixes.

[lloydVIII]

Well, streaming has come a long way I guess. The use of Qobuz, a Roon Server and now the BDP-3 all brought huge improvements to my streaming chain. And with the BdP there is now a audible difference between playing a Qobuz album and the same album I own as a SACD. I'm sure there is really a DSD data stream. The BDA-3 indicates it properly as well. Of course a different SACD mastering can always be the issue.
That there is a difference between the Audio-specialiced Bryston/Roon streaming chain and a good quality but multi-purpose Blueray-Player isn't that big of a surprise when you think about it. It's no coincidence that a large modding community emerged around the Oppo devices, taking their solid foundation to refine them for audio purposes and audiophile usage. Maybe a linear power supply and a better HDMI plug would suffice to bring the Oppo again head to head with the BDP-3, who knows ...

 

[WGH]

Maybe a linear power supply and a better HDMI plug would suffice to bring the Oppo again head to head with the BDP-3, who knows ...

Yea, sometimes upgrades fall into the "who knows" category. Linear power supplies do clean up the sound, even from an all digital source, I have two linear supplies in my music server. I was using a $129 audiophile USB card in the music server. A next level card was a JCAT Femto USB card for $528, that is a lot of money for an experiment, would it make a noticeable improvement? Who knows? By chance a used JCAT USB card appeared at a fair price and yes there is an improvement in the sound.

From reading reviews, the JCAT USB card needs a linear power supply to sound it's best, luckily I had one. But better sound is cumulative, it took a USB card specifically designed for audio plus a linear power supply. A SACD transport specifically designed for music should be better than an Oppo with just a linear power supply grafted on, that would be like putting high performance tires on a 20 year old Volvo station wagon. Would you notice a difference? Yes. Would it be cost effective? Probably not.

Unfortunately I have no way to compare the same SACD recording: disk vs. ripped. Neither my HoloAudio May DAC or my Anthem AVM60 Surround Processor have a direct SACD input (and the Anthem electronics are decidedly average with music anyway). I have compared ripped vs. disk CDs. A physical CD played with the Oppo is a pale comparison compared to the ripped via the music server/HQPlayer combo with both sources going into the HoloAudio DAC.

[rollo]

 IMHO the OPPO was an inexpensive good sounding unit. PS Audio, Esoteric stand alone SACD players or transport/DAC combos are just better. Yes more money but worth it. For me streaming DSD would only be music actually recorded in DSD like Blue Coast Recordings or Octave labels. Borrow if you can A PS audio or Esoteric player or Tran/DAC combo as find out.


charles

[zeeman]

There isn't an SACD player available that will match the performance of the BDA-3/BDA-3.14 on a good high res streaming service.  The Oppo was good value for money in an all-in-one but was clearly bested by standalone CD players form the likes of Bryston, Rotel, NAD. etc.

[WGH]

For me streaming DSD would only be music actually recorded in DSD like Blue Coast Recordings or Octave labels.

Not always but sometimes the SACD release is a remastered version that improves on the original CD sound. Jeff Beck's Blow by Blow is a good example. I have three versions: the original CD, a MFSL release and the SACD release. I find the original and MFSL harsh and thin sounding, basically unlistenable. The SACD remaster is the way the album should sound.

"We've gone the deluxe Analogue Productions route — remastered from the original analog tape by Ryan Smith at Sterling Sound"
https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/98059/Jeff_Beck-Blow_By_Blow-Hybrid_Multichannel_SACD?srsltid=AfmBOoqGFzTjzKLIMirQGMDnVx_0XHRRlW72o123YnB7Fh9oO1V5BVXi

[lloydVIII]

IMHO the OPPO was an inexpensive good sounding unit. PS Audio, Esoteric stand alone SACD players or transport/DAC combos are just better. Yes more money but worth it. For me streaming DSD would only be music actually recorded in DSD like Blue Coast Recordings or Octave labels. Borrow if you can A PS audio or Esoteric player or Tran/DAC combo as find out.

Hi Charles,
buying a good standalone player is always an option. But what will be the best way to go if I want to keep using the Bryston BDA-3 as a DAC for SACD playback? Are there better options than using a (modded) Oppo as a transport?

Alois

[R. Daneel]

Hi everyone,
I'm currently using an Oppo BDP105 as a SACD transport in my system, connected to my Bryston BDA-3 DAC and BP-26 preamp (sending the digital DSD stream from the Oppo via HDMI to the BDA-3). Until recently this setup delivered the best audio qaulity in my system - better than streaming.

Now I upgraded my streaming chain by replacing a Cambridge Audio CXN v2 with a Bryston BDP-3. Now the audio quality of my streaming chain surpasses the SACD playback in many ways. So I'm looking to upgrade my SACD playback. I see three ways to go:

.) Modding my current Oppo. I think there are still some dealers who offer linear power supplies and better clocks for the Oppo 105, p.e. Oppomod in South Corea. Pros: Can use my existing device, low cost. Cons: Upgrade quality is limited.

.) Get a Oppo 203 and get it modded. Again Oppomod offers the upgrade into a "ultimate SACD transport". Pros: Best quality while continuing using the BDA-3 as a DAC. Cons: expensive, needs new (used) device and some effort, wrong color.

.) Switching to a standalone SACD player. Give up the use of the BDA-dac for SACD and buy a standalone player from Accuphase, Esoteric or another good brand (of course used, I buy only second hand). Pros: Could surpasse the BDA-3 dac. Bad: Expensive and - good or bad - totally new sound signature.

That's it. Which way would you go? Can you think of a different and better approach? How do you handle SACD playback in a Bryston-based system?

Note: I'm located in Europe. I cant buy an already modded Oppo in the US because the power supply wouldnt fit. I looked for Oppo modders who are still in the business and provide gear that I can used in Europe but couldnt find much. ModWright p.e. doesnt do Oppo anymore so it seems.

Thank you for all your advice, and Happy New Year!
Alois

It doesn't make any sense to have a player modified because you can test it only after the modification has been done. At that point, you will have already spent the money and the result might not be what you were hoping for. A transport cannot change the nature of the sound to a sufficient degree, I assure you.

Right from the start, I was surprised that Bryston would include an HDMI interface which is a complete miss and, if you will, a nightmare for audio transmission. Bryston is not a technological company - no disrespect - as the guys who know HDMI are the A/V manufacturers and it is what the standard is intended for. So, even if you were to have an incredibly capable transport, any advantages would be quickly nullified by the HDMI interface between it and the BDA-3. This is likely you hear an improvement with the BDP-3. Not because the BDP is so superior but because you are using it through a better interface.

The safest bet is to find an SACD player that you like. Of course, the sound will vary from brand to brand so it will be a matter of matching it to your system. Keep in mind that one of the things that makes the BDA-3 (as well as other Bryston DACs) is the fact they use a fully discreet circuit after the D/A chip. Also, because the AKM convertor chips are voltage output, no current-to-voltage stage is required. Perhaps this is what you should look for in a SACD player to, hopefully, bring it more in-line with your Bryston DAC.

Cheers - Antun

[PeterG]

I use a Sony BDP X800M2 universal player, connected via hdmi to a BDA3.14....I've ripped most of my sacd collection to a 2TB ssd drive that is installed in my BDP3.... I've compared the sacd playback to the ripped dsf file many times (a/b)....virtually indistinguishable....have read frequently how noisy hdmi is supposed to be....don't hear it in the Bryston implementation...Bryston is obsessive about noise reduction in all their products, so not surprising their implementation of hdmi is relatively quiet

[R. Daneel]

I use a Sony BDP X800M2 universal player, connected via hdmi to a BDA3.14....I've ripped most of my sacd collection to a 2TB ssd drive that is installed in my BDP3.... I've compared the sacd playback to the ripped dsf file many times (a/b)....virtually indistinguishable....have read frequently how noisy hdmi is supposed to be....don't hear it in the Bryston implementation...Bryston is obsessive about noise reduction in all their products, so not surprising their implementation of hdmi is relatively quiet

There is no 'Bryston implementation'. The HDMI provided on a separate 'daughterboard' made by a third party. Hence it is also available as an option in the BDA-3. Subjective feeling of audio quality is another thing altogether.

[lloydVIII]

It doesn't make any sense to have a player modified because you can test it only after the modification has been done. At that point, you will have already spent the money and the result might not be what you were hoping for. A transport cannot change the nature of the sound to a sufficient degree, I assure you.

Right from the start, I was surprised that Bryston would include an HDMI interface which is a complete miss and, if you will, a nightmare for audio transmission. Bryston is not a technological company - no disrespect - as the guys who know HDMI are the A/V manufacturers and it is what the standard is intended for. So, even if you were to have an incredibly capable transport, any advantages would be quickly nullified by the HDMI interface between it and the BDA-3. This is likely you hear an improvement with the BDP-3. Not because the BDP is so superior but because you are using it through a better interface.

The safest bet is to find an SACD player that you like. I knew Of course, the sound will vary from brand to brand so it will be a matter of matching it to your system. Keep in mind that one of the things that makes the BDA-3 (as well as other Bryston DACs) is the fact they use a fully discreet circuit after the D/A chip. Also, because the AKM convertor chips are voltage output, no current-to-voltage stage is required. Perhaps this is what you should look for in a SACD player to, hopefully, bring it more in-line with your Bryston DAC.

Cheers - Antun

Thank you, Antun. That adds a very interessting perspective any maybe will have some influence on my strategy. I knew it would be a gamble to have a player modified. But I was willing to take that risk, hoping for the best. Knowing the HDMI connection is usual a weak link I thought Bryston would have made the best out of it and made it equally good than other interface options. I will try to compare with CDs and send the data both via HDMI and Coax.

Do you have a hint where to start to look for a SACD player with the specs you describe?

Alois

[Stefan_DR3]

You'll need a transport and DAC that does I2s (like PS Audio) to better the HDMI-Bryston solution, or a very good one-box player like the Marantz SA-10.

[R. Daneel]

Thank you, Antun. That adds a very interessting perspective any maybe will have some influence on my strategy. I knew it would be a gamble to have a player modified. But I was willing to take that risk, hoping for the best. Knowing the HDMI connection is usual a weak link I thought Bryston would have made the best out of it and made it equally good than other interface options. I will try to compare with CDs and send the data both via HDMI and Coax.

Do you have a hint where to start to look for a SACD player with the specs you describe?

Alois

Hi Alois! Great name by the way!

Well, I wouldn't start with Accuphase. I have tremendous respect for that company and they are the epitome of 'quality' in my view. However, the 'sound' you're looking for might come from something else. I had to reread what you've said in the opening post to make sure I offer an advice of value to you but anyway, since you will be buying a used player and so the cost will be much less, perhaps a player from Krell would be more to your liking. I remember them having several SACD players in the past.

Cheers - Antun

[pnut]

You're not going to find any SACD player that has an onboard DAC and associated output stage that audibly bests the BDA-3.

The transport, as long as it's well made, like in virtually all products nowadays, will have ZERO affect on sound quality, despite what the manufacturers of expensive transports try to make you believe.  If you mod your existing Oppo to be a "SACD transport", you are wasting your money.  SACD's complexity is all in the processing, not in the reading of the disc.  All a transport does is use a blu laser to read the spinning disc and output the digital bits.  ANY decent player can do that perfectly.

That leaves the HDMI interface.  What facts do you have that support the conclusion that HDMI is inherently noisy, or in any way inferior to any other digital interface?  I'm not talking about listening to what "internet people" tell you, which is 90% garbage.  FACTS.

My opinion, if you can't guess by now, is to not waste a dime and keep your current setup.  You sound like you're afflicted with the well-known audiophile phenomenon of "upgradeitis", and will continue to spend ever more amounts of money chasing your tail in pursuit of audio nirvana.  Want to spend some money to improve your system?  Spend it on speakers (or setup, which is free), higher quality recordings, and improvements to your room acoustics.  Those 3 things make PROFOUND differences.  Differences in electronics are miniscule by comparison.

[gbaby]

You're not going to find any SACD player that has an onboard DAC and associated output stage that audibly bests the BDA-3.

The transport, as long as it's well made, like in virtually all products nowadays, will have ZERO affect on sound quality, despite what the manufacturers of expensive transports try to make you believe.  If you mod your existing Oppo to be a "SACD transport", you are wasting your money.  SACD's complexity is all in the processing, not in the reading of the disc.  All a transport does is use a blu laser to read the spinning disc and output the digital bits.  ANY decent player can do that perfectly.

That leaves the HDMI interface.  What facts do you have that support the conclusion that HDMI is inherently noisy, or in any way inferior to any other digital interface?  I'm not talking about listening to what "internet people" tell you, which is 90% garbage.  FACTS.

My opinion, if you can't guess by now, is to not waste a dime and keep your current setup.  You sound like you're afflicted with the well-known audiophile phenomenon of "upgradeitis", and will continue to spend ever more amounts of money chasing your tail in pursuit of audio nirvana.  Want to spend some money to improve your system?  Spend it on speakers (or setup, which is free), higher quality recordings, and improvements to your room acoustics.  Those 3 things make PROFOUND differences.  Differences in electronics are miniscule by comparison.

Good post.