[allensound]

So I have a really dumb / naive question...

How is it I'm going to run an equivalent of an 8 gauge wire (some of GR-Research's cables), from my amplifier to my speaker terminals, and the first thing they do is go into a tube connector where the wire being fed inside the speaker itself is 12 (or maybe it was 14) gauge, and the first thing it hits is a resistor with a 26 gauge wire and then into multiple capacitors with similar gauge wires...

None of that makes sense to me.  The whole point of the thicker gauge cable is to carry high currents to the speakers, but the first thing they hit are step downs in cable sizes...someone please explain how this makes any sense at all?!

Not that I'm not going to follow the wiring directions on my NX-Tremes, I just have a curious mind and would love to know what's actually happening...It feels like you're trying to shove the water of a firehose through a straw...

 

[rotarius]

It makes sense just like 3 feet of audiophile power cable after a 100 feet of Romex transforms your amps performance. 

[PumaCat]

It makes sense just like 3 feet of audiophile power cable after a 100 feet of Romex transforms your amps performance. 

Properly designed power cables do transform your amp's and concomitantly, overall system performance, particularly if they are capable of high levels of DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) and/or noise-reduction.

In fact, one of the biggest sources of noise in an audio system are the full-wave bridge rectifiers in the amplifier's own power supplies.

Read this for reference: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Moreover, 100 feet of Romex functions as excellent antenna carrying RF into your system's amplification components only to be amplified as NOISE, and the impact of this is audible. I made a YT video demonstrating this with data a couple years ago using an Entech powerline noise analyzer: https://youtu.be/g2SAj7aKXGo?si=aFXmPEbuNS0CTJaF

This is physics, after all.

[corndog71]

The point of a speaker cable is to connect an amplifier to a speaker.  The circuit uses current to move the voice coils.  Since there’s usually some distance between them you want a lower gauge cable to provide a low resistance path.  They should also be lower in inductance and capacitance but that involves the geometry of the cable and is more complicated.

The crossover parts may seem like a bottleneck but their job is different.  They are there to alter the signal one way or another.  It might be nice if capacitors and resistors had 10 gauge connections but that’s probably too much to expect.  Coils can be made in lower gauges. 

[rotarius]

Properly designed power cables do transform your amp's performance, particularly if they are capable of high levels of DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) and/or noise-reduction.

Read this for reference: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Moreover, 100 feet of Romex functions as excellent antenna that carries RF into your system's amplification components only to be amplified as NOISE, and the impact of this is audible.

This is physics, after all.

Ah yes, Physics.  In engineering school, they didn't teach us that subject very well since we were in applied sciences and all.  We certainly never referred to research publications by GC Audio.  My bad.

[RDavidson]

They do transform your amp's performance, particularly if they are capable of high levels of DTCD (dynamic transient current delivery) and/or noise-reduction.

Read this for reference: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Moreover, 100 feet of Romex is an excellent great antenna carrying RF into your system components, and the impact of this "noise factor" is audible.

This is physics, after all.

For years, maybe even decades, the cable naysayers would say “Commercial grade cables are as good as anything you’d ever need. Everything else is expensive snake oil.” Then Belden (one of the foremost leaders in commercial grade cables) came out with the Iconoclast line and had all the science to prove that there IS actually more performance to be had than what basic cables can provide. MANY of the cable naysayers, even the most grizzled ones, lost a hard fought battle on that little hill that day.

[PumaCat]

Ah yes, Physics.  In engineering school, they didn't teach us that subject very well since we were in applied sciences and all.  We certainly never referred to research publications by GC Audio.  My bad.

Check out my edited post above. There's now link to a video demonstrating with data how a noise-reducing power cord can significantly reduce noise in a system.

I also worked in applied sciences my entire career as well, as a PhD-level molecular biologist in Biotechnology. Ever heard of PCR aka the Polymerase Chain Reaction, which is used as the key foundational technology for all of today's DNA sequencing, DNA genomic analysis, DNA human identification analysis in forensics, and DNA medical molecular diagnostics?

Well, I'm one of the scientists who invented and developed PCR.

Here's a paper I published as first author in the journal Science, demonstrating using PCR for molecular cloning for the first time:


That professional career in Applied Sciences hasn't stopped me from learning about the physics that is the foundation for audio and music reproduction. Scientist do...what scientists do. Doesn't matter what the specific scientific discipline is.

Cheers.

[PumaCat]

For years, maybe even decades, the cable naysayers would say “Commercial grade cables are as good as anything you’d ever need. Everything else is expensive snake oil.” Then Belden (one of the foremost leaders in commercial grade cables) came out with the Iconoclast line and had all the science to prove that there IS actually more performance to be had than what basic cables can provide. MANY of the cable naysayers, even the most grizzled ones, lost a hard fought battle on that little hill that day.

Yes, I've read all the scientific papers that the developer of Iconoclast cables, Galen Gareis, wrote about this subject. He's a very good engineer, as well as Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research.

[RDavidson]

Yes, I've read all the "scientific papers" that the developer of Iconoclast cables, Galen Gareis, wrote about this subject. He's a very good engineer, as well as Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research.

Why are you putting “quotation marks” on words? The way this reads is that you didn’t actually work in “Applied Sciences,” and didn’t read any real “scientific papers.” I don’t think you meant it to come off this way, but it reads as sarcasm.

[PumaCat]

Why are you putting “quotation marks” on words? The way this reads is that you didn’t actually work in “Applied Sciences,” and didn’t read any real “scientific papers.” I don’t think you meant it to come off this way, but it reads as sarcasm.

I've removed the quotation marks. The use of quotation marks, or not, doesn’t change the facts of my work during my career in molecular biology, my scientific publications, one of which is referenced above, or the validity of my points about the relationship between audio, science, and engineering. 

Cheers.

[FullRangeMan]

Betwern xover and the drivers awg 10 to 14 are nice, more recommended use solid wire not stranded.

[allensound]

I was afraid my question might go off the rails a little bit.  FWIW, I don’t think that a lot of this is snake oil, even someone with as little experience as I have in electricity and how it interacts with audio components.  That said, one thing that was eye-opening for me years ago was I’d lost my power supply for a macbook pro.  So I went on Amazon and bought a power supply that cost 1/2 of what an Apple PS would have cost….Everything seemed awesome UNTIL I was listening to or editing some audio - the noise in the audio was absolutely crazy.  So I started looking into what in the world was going on, and sure enough Apple designs all their power supplies (for all their products - phones, computers, etc) to be dead silent as they condition the power as it comes in.  So, 100% what is done in power supplies and with the incoming electricity before it hits important electronics matter more than a regular person would know….

BUT, specifically what I was curious about is how in the world an 8-gauge speaker cable going from an amp to a speaker can actually supply the 200W (just an example) of power from the amp to the drivers when the input size of the very first connection in the crossover is a 24-26 gauge wire.  The physics just don’t make sense to me.  And corndog - 100% understand that the parts in the crossover are for different purposes than just carrying current (they’re filtering frequencies, etc), but the current is still traveling down that path, so I was just curious if your 200W is effectively cut to 40W (again, just a random number for the sake of the scenario) by the time it’s gone through all their components and their smaller wiring. 

It just seems like the wiring inputs/outputs on the capacitors, resistors and inductors should all be larger to handle more current.  One last example comes to mind.  I want to say that the Duelund caps I bought  are rated for 600V….how in the world is that itty bitty (I assume - don’t have them yet to look at them) leads on those capacitors will even be able to carry that much voltage?!

So again, really not looking for a war of “snake oil” or not - just curious about the physics of how some of this makes sense.

[nlitworld]

Think of it like driving a car in traffic headed to a drag strip. To get where you're going a long distance away quickly and safely, you need a multi-lane split freeway (24 strand eff 8ga) but when you reach the drag strip, there's a specific lane for each car and no traffic to compete with (crossover wiring). Don't make the drag strip lanes too narrow (tonearm wire would be gross) but they don't need to be an 8ga airport runway.

Someone explained it to me that way a while back and it seemed to click.

There is someone on this forum that did wire their NX-Otica with the B16 or B24 wire and it looked like a Tim Burton film set.

[allensound]

nlitworld - dude, I laughed out loud with the Tim Burton film set statement.  That’s a very good explanation the way you presented it. 

I do wonder though - did that insane cabling someone did with the Oticas actually make a real difference?  I have to imagine not so much considering the crossover network happens before all that additional cabling…..

[rotarius]

You snake oil believers crack me up!  This thread has been entertaining.

[viggen]

bottlenecks that could be removed is an actual bottleneck.  bottlenecks that can't be removed isn't really a bottleneck.

that being said, if changing cables/wires before and after the crossover changes the sound, then they do matter.  if not, then they don't.  it's really that simple.

that being said, if you know you have a crappily designed crossover or the caps in the crossover are old, then you have a bottleneck that can be removed.

[nlitworld]

You snake oil believers crack me up!  This thread has been entertaining.

Trust me, ignorance is bliss. Be thankful you can't hear your gear. Once you do, you can't un-open Pandora's box. You'll forever be on a quest for the next best thing. OCD nervosa will set in on cable routing behind your gear cause you heard noise, you'll start tube rolling til you need a storage container, tracking speaker placement in your room like a D-Day invasion map and experimenting with crossover parts like an Iron Chef exploring the depths of his spice cabinet. For many, the Ron Popeil tag line "Set it and forget it" is the best way and that's great. For others, they need to follow the white rabbit into Wonderland.

[Tyson]

People that don't hear differences in cables simply don't have resolving enough gear.  Or they haven't optimized speaker placement.  Or they haven't properly treated their room.  Once you do these things, differences are obvious. 

[WGH]

Real world experience is better than trying to explain why a bigger speaker cable might be better or worse than a smaller cable without listening.

Sometimes shorter speaker cable is better too:
Open baffle servo subs need to keep the speaker cables 18" long.
"The longer cable and additional resistance will cause a delay in the control of the servo system. So wire lengths have to be kept short."
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=165446.msg1758585#msg1758585


Results from a larger speaker cable are dependent on a speakers sensitivity and how low they go.

My Salk HT2-TL speaker's sensitivity is 88dB with strong bass down to 34Hz. The Seas Excel W18 magnesium cone drives need current to maximize their performance. I discovered a single run of Kimber 4VS attenuated the bass. The 4VS has an aggregate wire size of 13 AWG, a double run has an aggregate wire size of 10 AWG, which is the sweet spot for the HT2-TLs. My test recording was "Temple Caves" from Mickey Hart's Planet Drum. A single run of Kimber has pretty good bass, a double run made the single pane glazed windows in my old house rattle.

If your speakers don't have strong output below 40 Hz or you use a sub with a high level connection (amp) then the wire gauge may not make any difference and 13 AWG to 15 AWG may work just fine.


Our audio club recently auditioned the new Hapa Torsion 14 gauge UPOCC hand polished Copper and Torsion 15 gauge UPOCC Nano-polished Silver in two different systems. Both Eric and I found a single run of either cable attenuated the bass. Each of us came to this same conclusion separately while listening alone. Eric uses the 8 gauge speaker cable from GR Research.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183932.msg1944092#msg1944092

[g3rain1]

So literally no one actually answered this mans question.... 

The answer is length. A component of cable impendence is length, not just width alone. Wires inside your speaker aren't nearly as long as the cable connecting it to the amp. (NX-Tremes  excluded).