Plunging into Clari-T waters..

Zero · « **on:** 13 May 2005, 06:17 am »

After months of watching those get their feet wet with the Clari-T, I decided to plunge into the waters and give it a whirl.

I will admit to being more than just a tad nervous. I have gone through quite a few chip amp based products and while each time being impressed, never once did they ultimately hold up to the ‘reference’ gear. I am hoping the Clari-T will shine a new light and give me something so many other chip amps simply have not been able to deliver. With a 30 day trial period, the risks seem minimal.

Now that the decision has been decided, the difficult task is at hand - yes folks, I am refering to the wait! I look forward to giving this little amp a run around.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 May 2005, 02:16 pm »

1) The bugger takes some time to break in;

2) It's a big 6 watts, but 6 watts nonetheless. Speaker matching is good;

3) Some people find great synergy straight from the source, others like it with a preamp in front.

Let us know what you think!

smargo · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 May 2005, 02:50 pm »

Quote

I will admit to being more than just a tad nervous. I have gone through quite a few chip amp based products and while each time being impressed, never once did they ultimately hold up to the ‘reference’ gear.

A6M-ZERO this still may not ultimately "hold up" to the reference - but what you are getting for sure is the one of the best digital amplifier presentations i have heard.

This still may not look like what you really cherish in sound, but there is no denying that what we have is something special. It may require some experimentation with cables, speakers and the like and you almost have to be willing to go that route if you want to hear this thing at it's best. (I still haven't heard this thing at it's best, I believe, and Im not sure anyone really has).

There is no doubt that the t is musical - but Im not so sure that this is what people really crave from their equipment. I believe if the clari t came in a bigger box and looked like a million bucks and cost $4000 it would be the product of the year in many magazines and online forums.

I know when something is relatively inexpensive i have a tendency to listen with a more negative approach (ready to find anything i can that is wrong) and with expensive gear - I give every benefit of the doubt I can find)

Anyway

Good luck

smargo

Zero · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 May 2005, 03:01 pm »

Miklorsmith,

Thank you for the reminders. I will be using an AMC CD8B as a transport, to a Scott Nixon TubeDac + into the Clari-T. Now all I need is some super efficient speakers and I am set. Anyone have any I could borrow?

Smargo,

'Reference' is a fairly broad term, and we typically think of such gear as being in a large beautiful chasis sporting a fancy name and high price tag. I wish that were so in my case, hell, I wish I could afford to even own 'reference'. Instead, my reference point mostly surrounds the Musical Fidelity A3.2. She has stood up well against competition, much to my surprise.

Like all new equipment, one cannot expect to drop it in place to be rewarded with beautiful music. This hobby comes dangerously close to an art form, as every system truly becomes time consuming and a true crafted piece of work.

I thank you for your honest thoughts on the matter. I will hope that I too can share in the joy and satisfaction so many others here have.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 May 2005, 03:19 pm »

Surprising that the MF 3.2 has held up well to competition? My parents have the 3.0 version of that amp and it's wonderful. I was using a PS Audio HCA-2 before the Clari-T and it paled.

That's funny about the cost/outlook equation. I get a kick out of the disbelief people have when they look at the amp and say "That's it!?" "Yep, wanna hear it turned up?" "HOLY CRAP".

As far as whether it's the sound you seek, Richard has Omega 8R's, Dmason has some open-baffle homebrews, and I'm running 101 db Zu Druids. I don't think any of us are having ANY nervosa problems. I've never NOT had the twitching ache of wonder. For anyone committed enough to build an optimized system, this is your ticket off the carousel.

Dmason · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 May 2005, 04:24 pm »

Sean,

"Holds up to the "reference,'" ~might imply a somewhat closed minded approach, or conditioned expectations. Careful on how you approach newness.... What I can tell you is now that my ears have become totally accustomed to well-implemented "digital" amps, virtually ALL sand amps start sounding like pricey angle-grinders. I kid you not, I can almost hear the transistors switching and glare GLARING at me. If ever there was a reason for tube pre amps, it is solid state. Not long ago I listened to the newer MF 302..? and it sounded very flat and uni-dimensional, with that tizzzz that all transistor amps sound like to me. I came home got this stuff going, and Aaaaahhhh!!! Real Music.

Having read anecdotes on audio boards for over four years now, it has become apparent that there are a TON of audio types out there who have no real idea of what they want their music to sound like, what direction even to go in to get there, and little idea of what Real Music and Real Musical Instruments sound like. I see it all the time, especially on Audio Salem, where they burn their witches publicly. For whatever it is worth, the battery way with Tripath chips makes Real Music, and this is what people are talking about. However, NOTHING is for everybody.

I like your comment about this madness being close to an art. A goddam Black Art if such is the case. Too bad we couldnt throw all our stuff into a gym and combine it until people could ~discover the ingredients that made a sonic soup of their liking.

I will say it again: those who are getting the most out of the ClariT are those using higher sensitivity speakers. The whole 6 watts thing is totally meaningless in light of what one is using for speakers, and their SPL/2.83V/1 meter. A 6 watt ClariT can crack the walls of an abandoned warehouse during a sold-out Ecstasy convention, ...done right. --You just need the right speakers: Synergy Synergy Synergy. The question is: for your audition process, do you have speakers that are capable of the "speed" and dynamics the ClariT offers?

JLM · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 May 2005, 06:33 pm »

I went a small audiofest last month and took 200 pounds of speakers and 3 pounds of amp. That's a hoot for me.

Dan,

I heard the Titans at the 2003 Midwest Audio Fest and was not impressed with either the sound (brief listen, unknown material) or build (very DIY looking, in fact my first pair of speakers looked better and I'm a long way from being a god of sawdust). Looks are a personal thing, but they remind me of a steam locomotive.

The real measure of an audio system IMO is how it plays unamplified instruments and voice. And most audionuts don't know what that sounds like. No wonder they don't know what they want. Any half way decent home system should sound better than any PA system in a bar or arena.

So what speakers are you using/recommending (other than Edgarhorns). Many would be interested in something more affordable. Omega and Druids could work, but both need powered subs to reach the bottom octave, so I'd just stay with the Omegas. But you've been using open baffles, right?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 May 2005, 06:52 pm »

It is a mistake to lump Fostex drivers in with the Druids. They are not the same at all. The price is a lot higher, but they are a different beast altogether. This is not a knock on Omega, as they are outstanding at what they do.

Adding a whole pile of extra money does some really unbelievable things though. Bass is one of them. They have excellent, tuneful bass to about 40 hz. You will not find an all-in-one hi-eff flat to 20 hz without augmentation.

Also, Dmason is correct that efficiency is key, and the 5- to 8-db efficiency difference is significant.

Dmason · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 May 2005, 07:11 pm »

The 5-8db difference is the key..."

I have said it several times, I recommend that the higher the sensitivity rating, the better things will go. Nothing under 92/8, IMHO. This includes ANY wide range driver under 92db. It is not "speakers" that I recommend, it is sensitivities. This is just my own opinion. I listen at fairly low levels, one could say quietly, around 84db, so I would want 10db headroom, for dynamics, not volume. Volume is of little concern to me.

Unless, like the Druids, a speaker that is designed for bass, To Get The Most, I would shelve any speaker at ~75Hz, and use a sub. Big, BIG diff. I would especially employ this shelving with high priced drivers. Allows both driver and amp to breathe. Gets you more sound, more value from the combination, more practicality. More everything.

Some drivers just need more power. Like my Jordan JX92S/Aurum Cantus TL. 83db, or my Fostex F200A. The ClariT sounds wonderful, but the application -demands- higher power. For this reason I have ordered the hotrod modded T-Ack. Should be here soon.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 May 2005, 07:59 pm »

Hearing Dan compare the Clari-T and Teac amps, both on DC, will be something!

smargo · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 May 2005, 08:11 pm »

Quote

I have said it several times, I recommend that the higher the sensitivity rating, the better things will go. Nothing under 92/8, IMHO. This includes ANY wide range driver under 92db.

Dmason, with all due respect i don't necessarily agree. A friend of mine came over with his 95db omega 6rs and i went to his house with my clari t. We tried different combinations of preamps and cables, rooms , houses, damping, etc. The bottom line is that the omegas just sounded awful with the clarit's, yet with my 88db polks, the sound was magical.

That being said, with a cayin tube amp the 6r's sounded phenomenal at 22 watts triode and 45 pentode, i mean they blossomed into unbelievability.

Im just saying you never know and i wouldn't necessarily limit the clari t's to 95db and beyond. Though this would be the logical thinking.

regards,
smargo

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 May 2005, 08:19 pm »

Quote from: Dmason

For this reason I have ordered the hotrod modded T-Ack. Should be here soon.
...

Hi Dmason,

Your All-Battery Teac is shipping out TODAY! I think you are going to be very surprised by how much it sounds like the Clari-T, but with more punch and the ability to drive lower sensitivity speakers with more ease.

Just as the Clari-T's 6 watts seem like more, the Red Wine Teac's 30-watts seem HUGE!

There are a few others who recently received the Red Wine Teac and will post comments...hopefully soon!

Zero · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 May 2005, 08:21 pm »

Dan,

I have nothing but complete respect for chip amplifiers, even under traditional form of a weak power supply , shoddy boards , components and chasis. I have personally pinned the Teac Legacy 700 against many highly respected, very expensive seperates and never once did it yeild to the competition, leaving many absolutely stunned. In its raw form, it is a good unit. I would never replace my MF A3.2 with it as it is, not in a heart-beat - but that is largely due to system synergy. No single component is the end-all, be-all - it is all about creating a collective group that corresponds to give you what you desire - with each piece being as important as the other.

I am one of those who know exactly what they want, but realize the improbability of achieving it with the money I can current throw into this hobby. You could say - "I want it all". I want *every* type of music to sound brilliant.. be it low level ambient acoustic guitar or voice, or intense, loud beats. Every type of music to show through brilliantly - something either most affordable components cannot achieve.

My next logical question would be; What speakers should I use that may fit the above critera? I realize that everything has their different trademark sound, but a good start is knowing what efficient speaker truly can 'handle it all'. While I do have a certain skill for attaining equipments capabilities off hand - it would be best to have something that would actually suit the equipment right there, in-room.

Cheers!

Zero · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 May 2005, 08:23 pm »

Oh and Vinnie,

I got a lonely Teac here. At some point, I may have to find her a new upgrade to battery power - know of anyone who can do it ?

!

Dmason · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 May 2005, 08:35 pm »

Smargo,

"the 6rs sounded just awful..." I have heard that. Yet it works a treat with the 166ers-----this is exactly why I don't want to get into --speaker-- recommendations. Who knows what will work. I never do, which is what has kept me interested in playing with this stuff for the last thirty years...

And nothing, NOTHING is carved into stone; ie: When you subtract brands, aesthetics, synergy, the only thing I can comment on is SPL. Period. And yes, even that is a very large generalization, but for the fact that Real Music contains Real Dynamics, which most people are unused to because they are used to less sensitive, less efficient designs, are not going to miss that which they have not experienced. If music is often called Oxygen, then dynamics are Nitrogen. Which is why I like horns and open baffle speakers.

Sean,

Yes, it is all about synergy, and one man's chalk is another man's cheese. I can say that battery powering T amps makes big synergies happen. I'm hoping you will love this stuff as much as the others. Try it with those Polks. It will also drive Dynaudio 1.8 MkII and sound really good. Just not dynamic.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 May 2005, 10:26 pm »

Quote

My next logical question would be; What speakers should I use that may fit the above critera? I realize that everything has their different trademark sound, but a good start is knowing what efficient speaker truly can 'handle it all'

(Responding to Smith inquiry Wednesday regarding new Druids at Chez Ebaen)

Quote

They're here breaking in. First impressions? Fu&%ing eh! Gutsy, ballsy, very good bass, no brightness, peakiness or weirdness, ability to play *very* loud without breaking up - the only thing missing right now is a bit of detail. That driver looks like it'll need mondo hours to cook. I'm tickled pink already - this is a VERY good design.

Michael Lavorgna has the Clari-T with volume control and he's also getting one as amp-only... I'll be getting the Lotus rig when it becomes available.

I have yet to encounter any music at any volume that bothers the Druids. Wait for upcoming 6moons reviews, which will confirm my manic promotion and will convince one and all that this is THE commercial solution under $3k.

I think Gary has Bastanis DIY giants that kick significant tail, and if the plan vaults of the DarkStars are ever opened that might be a great solution too.

I don't think Dan meant sensitivity is the only criteria, just the most important one. Crossovers kill the dynamic magic the Clari-T is capable of. The beauty of this amp is that it enables use of speakers that are musically better than the ones you currently have.

These speakers have not been popular because they don't sound great with big, dumb amps. BD amps and slow, dumb speakers developed together. The Clari-T allows liberation from dumb speakers. Using the Clari-T with dumb speakers minimizes the intelligence and pop the amp is capable of.

That doesn't mean efficiency is the only criteria, and a particular hyper-efficient choice may not work in a given scenario. However, the chances are exponentially better. And, if you're dealing with something under 92 db (94?, 96?) it is Guaranteed you are not getting everything from the amp.

smargo · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 May 2005, 12:18 am »

Quote

That doesn't mean efficiency is the only criteria, and a particular hyper-efficient choice may not work in a given scenario. However, the chances are exponentially better. And, if you're dealing with something under 92 db (94?, 96?) it is Guaranteed you are not getting everything from the amp.

miklorsmith;

Everyone isn't in love with high efficiency speakers. I think they are incredible when everything is synergestic. But i have heard plenty that sound lousy too.

Why are we limiting the clarit - to the high efficent crowd - which i guarantee will always be a select few, no matter how incredibly they are touted.

I mean why should we give a picture of the t as "you can really only enjoy this amp if you are using high effecient speakers". First off it's not true and 2nd why put this thing in a box.

I have heard many amps that were good and people said oh my god let's hear it with high efficent speakers im sure it will sound even more incredible and paradoxically the amps sounded worse.

But I know your well intended and I do respect your knowledge.

Regards,
smargo

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 May 2005, 01:17 am »

Quote from: A6M-ZERO

Oh and Vinnie,

I got a lonely Teac here. At some point, I may have to find her a new upgrade to battery power - know of anyone who can do it ? !

Yeah, ME!

I have all the parts in stock... just send it on over!

miklorsmith · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 May 2005, 01:56 am »

Hmmm. . .Reading back through, it sounds like I'm the elitist chump audiohead I hate. Sorry if it came through that way.

I was merely trying to state an observation and opinion, not judge anyone else. I just don't know how to express the special synergy and lifelike dynamics my particular hi-eff speakers sound with this sucker. And, based on similar thoughts echoed by others, I do believe something of great efficiency will bring the amp to new levels.

New dual mono is here and playing. With 1/2 of a CD through it, it's pretty smooth and controlled. Can't wait for break-in!

Zero · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 May 2005, 04:34 am »

Well folks, it is of course, best to take anything with a grain of salt and a side of hope.

The Clari-T has already been shipped out and is on its way to the humble abode. I made a strange move and ordered some Klipsch speakers. I did not want to break the bank so I got the small monitors which hold an efficiency of 94db. I am normally not a big Klipsch fan, perhaps this will change. With a small trial period - the only thing I have to lose is shipping.

Cant wait to give it a run!