Thanks so much to Mike, his lovely wife, and Raymong for hosting the 5/7 listening session, allowing a bunch of crazy audiopholks to invade their beautiful home, and experiment with whatever gear we brought with us! Lunch was terrific! Mike, please be sure to tell your wife that the homemade COOKIES were fantastic!   You guys rock!

As always, a pleasure to spend time w/ friends...and great seeing a few new faces...

Shokunin, thanks for bringing the EMM DAC/Preamp (only had 2 hrs of break in time that just kept improving with each passing minute!) and Silversmith Audio Palladium interconnects (these cables just amaze me everytime I hear them)!

John Casler, thanks for bringing the Bryston BP-26DA...a very clean sounding preamp...

JonL, thanks for bringing the Aural Thrills Palladium ICs...a whole bunch of cones...the EVS nude ultimate attenuators...

Russtafarian...thanks for bringing the Volex PCs...also good to see your friends, Lynn and Tom!

Hugh, great seeing you! it's been awhile, my friend...

Hajime, always a pleasure to see you!

Dave Clark and Francisco Duran, good to have you join us! Hope we continue to see you boys at SCARE sessions in the future!

New faces:

Gary Brashear, thanks for bringing the Stillpoints amp/component stand. WOW! what a difference they sure can make...

Craig ?

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few folks. My apologies...

I'll be back later to share some impressions...

Another great So Cal Rage!  Many thanks to Mike and his understanding wife for such a lovely event.  Sounds and thoughts are swirling around in my head, so let me jot down some rough impressions from the sweet spot.  

When I arrived around Noon, people (that would be Mad Dog, John Castler, and the host) had already fried one NuForce monoblock.  Apparently, they were trying to passively bi-amp the SP Tech 2.1 speakers with Four monoblocks when one of bass monoblocks emitted a funny smell and died.  Over-eager finger on the volume knob?  Unlucky defective part in an amp?  Whatever it was, I can say it was not me

So the rest of the time, we tried passive biamping with Nuforce on the tweeter+Son of Ampzilla on bass, SoA full-range, and Nuforce full-rance.  Hard to say which 3 setups was "better," but each had something going for them.  

SoA full-range showed  the usual richness and fullness in midrange with deep, strong, full bass with authority.  Highs were sweet as usual without grain, grit.  Some have called SoA "tube-like" in the past, which would be correct, EXCEPT for the bass prowess, which most tube amps lack.  

NuForce reminded me of the time we compared Rowland 201 digital amps to SoA.  NuForce had seemingly more treble extension/speed than SoA, a bit more linear-sounding, with a bit leaner and even-sounding bass.  Definitely not "tube-like," and in certain unhappy cable/component setup, it did have tendency toward coolness and detachment.  Bass could sound a bit too dry in certain setup, especially compared to SoA.  Then again, in other setups, it did not exhibit any of the above "problems."  So as usual, care in system-matching will be handsomely rewarded.  The 100watt version seemed to have enough power to push these 86dB speakers, though I suspect a  bit more effortless sound is possible with more power, especially in bass.  Overall, great value at the unreal MSRP.

Passive biamping with Nuforce on top and SoA on bass did provide the strengths of each.  Treble was extended and detailed and bass was powerful.  Unfortunately, the usual problems with passive-biamping with 2 different amps were present.  There was a bit of loss in coherence, continuousness, and seamlessness.  Nothing major or irritating, but it was there.     No free lunch.

SP Tech 2.1 speakers.  The system was not gelling very well in the beginning, but as components warmed up and more expensive components/cables showed up (thanks, Glen), the 2.1  started showing what it could really do.  These speakers are supposed to be 2-way bookshelf speakers, but they are HUGE, bigger than many floor standers.  After the system details/synergy was ironed out, some things stood out for me.  These speakers have very good bass.  Even though laws of physics limit very low bass, the bass that was there was forceful, expressive, impactful, defined, and nuanced.  The wave-guided tweeter is lightening fast with bags of clarity and transient speed.  Don't look for any treble "veil" or artificial softness here.  These speakers will reveal all your system's shortcomings.  In fact, in the beginning, with certain cable/components, the overall sound was sometimes too revealing and ruthless.  Once again, when things were set up right, None of this impression persisted, so don't take it the wrong way.  Ditto with the midrange.  It sounded like the speakers put out what was put in in the broad midrange.  More importantly, from treble through midrange, bass, all the ranges hung together with same speed and voice.  I hate it when speaker have "fast" treble but plodding bass, and vice versa, don't you?  Still, I would love to hear these speakers with some powerful tube amps, or at least with tube somewhere in the system for that extra "come-hither" sseeexxxx.  

We had a mysterious problem with DAC section of Bryston BP26DA preamp/DAC.  When fed by McCormack UDP-1 as transport, there were some strange breakup/crackling noises.  We'll have to let John Castler figure this one out at home.  Used as preamp, the Bryston did seem very clean, neutral, and detailed.  A promising new product from Bryston, and future auditions will reveal more.  

When Glen brought over his Meitner DCC2 DAC/preamp which he received yesterday, we just used Meitner as preamp.  How did this $12K product sound?  Well, in the beginning, I was worried for Glen's sake as the sound was cold, sterile, and grating.  However, even with few hours' use, it opened up nicely and ended up sounding just superb, both as DAC and preamp.  And this was without Meitner's custom transport with the custom optical link.  Even with UDP-1 as transport, using Dodson coax digital cable into DCC2, I heard one of the best digital sounds I've ever heard.  

We've already talked a lot in the past about how great McCormack UDP-1 sounds on redbook, and I've now heard 2 DAC's that sound definitely better.  One is Dodson 218, and now add Meitner to the list.  Compared to UDP-1, DCC2 just had more information and music across the range.  More fully realized textures, nuances, details with more powerful bass foundation.  Clarity, clarity, clarity, yet more natural and "right" sounding.  Wish we had 218 to compare side-by-side, but I'm sure it will come down to a preference Thang.  Now off to Audiogon to find that made-in-China miracle DAC that will kick Meitner's behind at half (make that quarter)the price...

Audience AdeptResponse power conditioner vs. BPT BP-2.  Reminded me of the time we compared Hydra to BPT.  Audience had more laid-back, refined sound that better conveys subtle shifts and nuances.  Bass was definitely more controlled and nuanced than BPT without any bloat.  BPT had a more forward, bold, denser presentation.  A tad brighter with a bit more weight/bloom to bass, which wasn't as nuanced.  Less refined and subtle.  I kinda like this kind of sound myself, but there's no denying the synergy of Audience piece in this setup.  Too bad I need to buy a new DAC if I had the kind of money required to buy one of these Audience units..

Most people seemed impressed with the effects of Stillpoints component stand ($800) when placed under Audience and Meitner.  The positives were a more "free" sound that focused better with smaller, rounder image definition and better soundstage separation/depth/volume.  Without the stand, sound was thicker, coarser, with bigger images that seemed to compress to front of speakers and drag onto the ground and speakers.  I have no argument with everyone who though the stand made dramatic improvements.  However, I would just mention that if you are into that thick, forward, dense PRESENCE in vocals that resonate more with chestiness, and if you don't care much about soundstaging prowess, you 'should' audition the stand before plunking down long green..

Now for some cables.  Thanks to Russ for bringing some molded Volex power cords.  They sounded surprisingly good powering NuForce amps compared to the ~$500 Z-cable cords.  Z-cable cords had a bit more control and refinement in the top/mids and better bass definition, but the Volex cords were not very far off the mark, either.  I've got one here to try, so we'll see..

Silversmith Palladium IC's were sounding very, very nice.  In fact, it's when Silversmith Palladiums x2 went into the system that I felt the system started to finally come into its own.  Well, that and the Meitner  Unfortunately for mere mortals, Meitner+Silversmithx2 = $20,000  Arrggg

And no, the Aural Thrills Air Palladiums, usually picked up at <$200 on Agon, could NOT run with the Silversmith Palladiums.  Remember, Silversmith uses small Palladium Alloy ribbons, whereas Aural Thrills uses pure Palladium solid core for signal and silver for return.  But then again, no IC I've heard so far can run with Silversmith Palladiums, either.  Q Tao IC's, recently well-reviewed, could not play in the similar ballpark, either.  In fact, Mike's silver interconnects, now in "isolated ground" version, handily sounded better than Tao to my ears with better clarity and neutrality.  

Balanced Power SC-6L 6awg litz speaker cables seemed to be doing a good job, but we didn't have time to swap out different speaker cables, so it's hard to say what the absolute performance level of this speaker cable is.  

We also didn't have time to compare the VH Audio AirSine cord (powering UDP-1) to another cord.  Unfortunate, but maybe next time.  

Never did get a chance to try the Sony SCD-XA9000ES player or the Axiom passive, either.  

I know Hajime took some photo's, so hopefully we will get some visual soon.  

Once again, a big thank-you to Mike and everyone who participated !!  

First off, Thanks to Mike (tweekgeek) and his wife for hosting this!!  

I arrived a bit late to the party (as usual) and when I arrived the SP Tech Timepiece 2.1's were being bi-amped with the Son of Ampzilla and the Nuforce Ref 8.   I missed all the fun and smell of burning electronics that lead to the dead Nuforce.

I just received the DCC2 so it hasn't even broken in yet, but I decided to bring it along...  

When they first put it into the system (bi-amped) it sounded waay too dark, we had plugged in some XLR cables that increased the gain on the Ampzilla which resulted in too much bass...  the previous setup (Bryston BP-26DA)  used just RCA cables for both Nuforce and Ampzilla, but the DCC2 only has one pair of RCA outputs AND one pair of Balanced.

Okay, so we single amped the Timepieces with just the Ampzilla and the Silent Source? XLR cables... ouch. Glare, hard, edgy, didn't sound good at all...  At this point I thought to myself, break-in's gonna be a bitch  

It didn't sound this bad at home, so I asked MD to swtich to the Palladiums.  There was HUGE difference between the two cables, the glare, the edge, was gone, sound was smoother, and more natural.  Now that's more like it.  As the DCC2 had a chance to warm up, it was able to show it's potential.  I can't imagine how much better it will be when the Meitnerized Transport arrives.

At this point a number of cones (BDR, DH Labs, Symposium Rollerblocks, Walker points, and Stillpoints stand) were thrown into the mix.  Each change made the system more synergistic and natural.  We ended up with DH lab cones on the McCormack UDP-1 and at first BDR cones on the DCC2 and later the new Stillpoints decoupler stand.  The Stillpoints stand did a great job of increasing the soundstage of the DCC2.  Too bad the stand costs $800

The Timepieces are definitely capable of revealing all of the upstream components.  Any hint of glare, or harshness will be revealed.  I was curious to hear how much better the 2.1's were against the 2.0's.  I can say that the 2.1's sound smoother and have less of a leaner, recessed midrange, and slight upper midrange hardness of the 2.0's.  The new tweeter is also further physically recessed into the waveguide than the 2.0's.  One thing I really like about the Timepiece is there abilty to articulate bass at all SPL's, especially at lower volumes.  Most speakers don't "wake up" in the bass until it's cranked, the Timepieces sound just as linear at 75db as it would at 95db.  I would definitely like to hear the Timepieces with the upcoming 350w version of the Nuforce amps.

A bit later we changed from the adeptResponse to the BPT power conditioner.  The BPT was more forward, a bit more aggressive, and the bass, although a bit more powerful, lost  some of the subtle textures and nuances.  I can see how one would prefer this sound over the adeptResponse, but I actually preferred the smoothness of the adeptResponse.

A bit later we changed out the silversmith Palladium cable with the Aural Thrills Palladium, then TAO silk cable, and Mike's new Silver IS cable.  All the cables were good in their own right, but none were able to deliver the textures and balance of the Silversmith Palladium cables.

Overall, it was a great session, thanks for all the great new music I got to hear, especially the American Beauty Score (not soundtrack).

Glenn

Did anyone try the Sony STR DA9000es receiver hooked up to the speakers with a direct digital input from a transport?
If not, you missed out on a great performer and another digital amp option.
bill

I'll help post a pic from Hajime's gallery

Did anyone try the Sony STR DA9000es receiver hooked up to the speakers with a direct digital input from a transport?
If not, you missed out on a great performer and another digital amp option.
bill

We did not get a chance to hear the Monster Sony Receiver, maybe Mike can chime in on his thoughts on the Sony ES Receiver...

Well, as always at these meets we have too much equipment, too many great people to talk with and meet, and great sounds and software to listen too.

I too want to thank Mike and his wife (Master of Mike? ) for offering up their home and refreshments.

I know Mad Dog probably was releived to not have all the preparation and clean up aftermath that goes with it, although he was called into service for equipment and cable swaps.

He is certainly a professional "swapper"

In any event, I won't go into any incredible detail about all the components and A/B's since JonL always does a credible job, and is much of the time "in tune" with what I hear.

I generally make it a point to do all my "critical" listening in a "sweet spot" position relating to "equal" distance from the speakers.

So based on that a few running comments might be in order.

The SP's sounded and looked great and are a rather impressive speaker overall.  I too thought the frequency response was well represented at that price point and maybe only slightly down in the "very extreme" HF and LF and only in relation to "my preference and reference".  

I felt that they sounded much like I expected with their greatest strengths being that the frequencies they offered were rendered with a nice balance and tone.  The other strength was a nice, but not overblown "impact" in the upper midbass.

The NuForce amps seemed too to be a good bargain in their pricing area.  They sounded powerful and clean which is amazing due to their size and weight.  They also drove a rather difficult load to some pretty good levels without a wimper. (well the one did fail, but strangely enough, they actually sounded just as good if not better, single amped, as opposed to biamped)

The big surprise to me, was when the DAC portion of the Bryston showed "clipping like" distortion on a couple peaks.  I tried to reproduce that with the exact same cut and and cable, last night and this morning.  The only thing different in the chain was the transport (ONIX CD1 vs McCormack UDP1) and the speakers (VMPS 626R's vs SP's)

I can't reproduce the distortion here???  However I can't turn the volume control much beyond 12:00 and yesterday we were running at 2:00 (because of the 88db effeicency of the SP compared to the 94db of the 626R)

In any event, being the "soundstage and imaging" freak that I am, I was always in the sweet spot, searching for the formation of images and the stage.

Early on, it was my cut of Hugh Masekela's "STIMELA" where the NuForce "let go".

I don't think we were playing it that loud, (I would guess high 80's on peaks)  but it was a large room.

Luckily Mad Dog had a "review sample" of the Son of Ampzilla and we were able to "biamp" with the SoA on the bottom and the NuForce on top.

I expected this to sound quite good as far as matching and would seem to play to the strengths of both amps, but something was wrong.

Since at these meets you end up listening to lots of new music, it was not readily evident, but I was just not "getting" it.  Cut after cut, I was simply getting a "mish mash" of sound.

Pleasant as it was, the images were non-exisitant, and it all sounded "out of phase" to me.

Finally I requested DUENDE a very familiar cut and there was definatly a problem.  This cut has distinct stage positioning of the instruments and now they were all over the place.

As it turned out, the top and the bottom of the "biamp" were reversed.

We quickly reversed the hook up, and "Bob's your uncle", the soundstage snapped into place and "images" emerged from the darkness.

Now because of the wider dispersion, they still were a bit "fogged in", but nice palpable images just the same.

And I might add as we contiually "tweaked" both the room and the components, the images developed even further.

Then we added the Meitner Pre-amp to the mix.   Now this is one beautiful machine at 12$ list.

I didn't think it sounded as bad as some have said when it was first fired up, but it certainly was not at its best.

But, within the hour, it was burning in as we listened.  While many might have attributed the continuos "improvements" to the overall sound to the cones, cables and devices implemented, I felt that much of it stemmed from the Meitner warming up and even breaking in during the session.

At one point JonL even ask to move the NuForce amps "off" the SP speakers (see photo) and place them on the speakers that were not in use beside them.  This made a slight improvement since the SPs were certainly resonating (I had put my hand on them earlier) and all that resonance was vibrating those little NuForce, even with the Walker Weights on them.

As always, by the end of the session (or at least by the time I left) I was able to hear a very incredible sound in Mike's room and I could see even more potential!!

The room is huge with multiangular surfaces.   Mike has some treatment, but nothing to make a dent in what is going on in that room.  At one point, he closed the drapes on the left rear wall and "opened" the sliding glass door.

In the sweet spot, that made another leap, in tightening the bass and edging the images, because it let some of the pressurization on the back wall "out" so as not to return and cancel some of the bass, and clsoing the curtains "soaked up" some of the reflected highs, that obscure imaging.

So just before I "peeled out" that room and system was quite magical indeed.

Now "that" is what's fun at these meets.

Thanks again Mike, nice seeing everyone again and meeting the new faces.

Hajime, thanks for posting those photos.  I guess most of us are usually too preoccupied with sound to plan for photos!

I went home wishing I was Shokunin again   parked in front of RM/X's listening to EMM Labs DCC2 via Silversmith Palladiums...

My main system will need some serious injection of $$$ to do what I want it to do eventually, but I found solice in my humble headphone setup after I got home.  Audio PC-->Sonic Impact (which I picked up for like $10) w/ linear PS-->modded AKG K1000 "earspeakers" via DIY wire.  Currently, this setup is closer to the EMM Labs setup than my speaker setup, so SOTA sound is possible at much lower prices if you are willing to go "small."  Until next time, friends.

Did anyone try the Sony STR DA9000es receiver hooked up to the speakers with a direct digital input from a transport?
If not, you missed out on a great performer and another digital amp option.
bill

The reason we didn't  do the comparison is the NuForce + Sony 9000ES + Luminous attenuator sounded better than the iLink setup.  The iLink sounded rather flat and forward by comparison.  Once we put the Bryston Preamp in the system, I found it sounded better than the Luminous.  With much more drive in the bass, it was also able to reach louder volumes.  Then is was the CD player shootout with my Sony going up against the McCormack UDP-1.  It was instantaneously discernable  which was the better player for redbook CD.  The McCormack stomped all over my Sony, rendering it virtually unlistenable until my auditory memory of the McCormack faded.  Needless to say, I will probably be getting a UDP-1 to bring to the RMAF. Damn.

The Sony is very nice, but I advise not listening to a UDP-1 or the NuForce amps if you want to remain satisfied with your system.

Great insights guys - thanks for sharing to all and on all