[gsvarney]

Hello all,
I have a pair of the original Sapphires that I purchased in 1992. I recently took them out of a room where nobody was listening to them and put them in my current listening space: my garage. The room is not awesome, but I'm making do. As I am striving to attain the most pleasurable listening experiences that I can, I have been considering what I might do to take these old guys to the next level. I've inspected the crossovers and it seems there are some pretty good components in use. There are no electrolytic caps. However, I'm wondering if I may gain some quality by bypassing the tween cap with something nice, like Miflex KCPU. I have a schematic that I believe is for the Sapphire II, but I think it may be the same configuration. The parts in my Sapphire consist of:
Tweeter
3uF WonderCap Ultima and .33F WonderCap Ultima in parallel
7.66Ohm and 7.71Ohm resistors in parallel
7.55Ohm and 5.49Ohm(?) resistors in parallel
2mH air core inductor

Woofer 1
7mH inductor (solid core?)
15Ohm resistor

Woofer 2
Notch filter with, I believe:
SPB 1200 12uF capacitor
7.6Ohm resistor
.15mH air core inductor
and
5.15Ohm and 5.14Ohm resistors in parallel
8Ohm resistor





I don't know if the caps in this would have deteriorated over the past 30 years and should be replaced, or if a bypass would work. They sound good to me, but I don't remember what they sounded like new. Has anyone here every done any mods are updating of Sapphires?

Thanks,
Geoff

[Mike Dzurko]

Of course it's hard to be 100% certain, but I'd bet all those components are still doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Put on some good music and enjoy:)

[newzooreview]

You could always send one to GR Research. They will measure its anechoic response and either recommend better parts or design a new crossover to address measured issues. It's not likely that the crossover design needs reworking for fundamental design issues, but they just got a Polk speaker and posted the results on their YouTube channel: if the crossover is solid, they suggest upgraded parts and post the kit for others who want a one-stop DIY upgrade as well.

They don't listen to the results, they just go by the measurement of the one speaker and their own experience. They don't charge for evaluating the speaker, and I don't know if they make a significant amount from markup on the parts. They claim they do not.

They do not charge to evaluate the speaker because they can post the results for other owners to buy parts kits. So, I suppose if you are in doubt about their recommendations, it's just a loss of time and shipping (which I assume they ask folks to cover).

Obviously, they have a forum here where you could get more info if no Sapphire owners come forward with DIY upgrade experiences. But 30 years is beyond the typical lifetime for a capacitor to remain in optimal working condition.

[opnly bafld]

You could always send one to GR Research.

 

I was looking for the puke emoji, but didn't see it.

[mick wolfe]

Of course it's hard to be 100% certain, but I'd bet all those components are still doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Put on some good music and enjoy:)

Exactly  Just be sure to give them a good source and equally good amplification. Despite their 90 db efficiency rating, I remember the Sapphires liking a bit of power to show their potential.

[gsvarney]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I did send Danny some info on them, and he says his stuff will perform better than these even if I upgraded parts. I do like Danny a lot, but I decided I'm going to go ahead and do some things with these. I'm going to add bypass caps, swap out the resistors and maybe the large inductor. I will also rewire everything. I will probably also remove the biwiring/biamp option as I don't plan to use them with either of those. I think I'll also test the drivers with DATS V3 just to make sure everything is as it should be. While I'm at it I'll probably measure the caps, as well. They already sound good, but if they can be better, great. Of course, my room is a real issue, so..

[Jeff_From_Michigan]

It sounds like you are going ahead with changing parts, but you might want to consider your amplification and source. I recently brought some Sapphires from the 90's out of retirement for the new bedroom system - Peachtree iNova and LUMIN D2 - and I couldn't be happier with the sound. It's also amazing how closely the color of the iNova matches the Sapphires, if you didn't know better you would swear that they were made as a set. I've grown accustomed to (and love) the Maggie sound, and these are certainly different, but I've never had a box speaker that sounded better in any residence in my life.

The reason I suggest maybe checking your amplification (and Mick also mentioned that earlier) is that I remember these speakers sounding even better with better amps - the ARC 100.2 and conrad-johnson CAV-50 in particular really made these little gems sound spectacular.

Good luck, whichever route you choose.

[newzooreview]

I think if you have the time and know-how, replacing a 30-year-old capacitor is very reasonable. Since the crossovers are already out of the speakers, this seems like good preventive maintenance even if the sound is unchanged. Improving the quality of other parts while you're at it also makes sense. The cost and time are not much, and you can rule out that path of upgrades down the line. Updating the crossover parts certainly doesn't preclude trying a new amp or source as well, now or a year from now.

[Mike Dzurko]

You could always send one to GR Research. They will measure its anechoic response and either recommend better parts or design a new crossover to address measured issues. It's not likely that the crossover design needs reworking for fundamental design issues, but they just got a Polk speaker and posted the results on their YouTube channel: if the crossover is solid, they suggest upgraded parts and post the kit for others who want a one-stop DIY upgrade as well.

They don't listen to the results, they just go by the measurement of the one speaker and their own experience. They don't charge for evaluating the speaker, and I don't know if they make a significant amount from markup on the parts. They claim they do not.

They do not charge to evaluate the speaker because they can post the results for other owners to buy parts kits. So, I suppose if you are in doubt about their recommendations, it's just a loss of time and shipping (which I assume they ask folks to cover).

Obviously, they have a forum here where you could get more info if no Sapphire owners come forward with DIY upgrade experiences. But 30 years is beyond the typical lifetime for a capacitor to remain in optimal working condition.

IMHO: This is a fine approach if you have a pair of speakers that you like for a lot of reasons, but for whatever reasons, they sound bad to you. However, IF the speakers were designed well in the first place, there was a LOT more to it than an FR or two.  In our process, we made many measurements on axis, off axis (above and below as well as laterally many angles). We also measured and took into account many other factors including frequency-time info and distortion. And we tried to correlate the measurements to listening tests. IF you change caps, you definitely want them to better matched than the standard 10%, we matched left and right much closer than that. And, you want them to be as close to the same actual value as the original design, or it will certainly sound different, but highly unlikely to be better. Main thing though, have fun and enjoy the music, so if you want to switch out parts, try to keep the values as close as possible to the originals both in their primary value (IE: inductors= inductance, but DCR is also a factor).

[opnly bafld]

Mike D = a guy that knows how to design speakers and a class act. 


PS Louis at Omega is another one.

[Rocket]

Hi,

Mike closed his business years ago and is still supporting his customers. His speakers were well regarded so changing the crossover design may just give you a different sound. Best to replace the parts if you really feel the need to do so.

Cheers Rod

[gsvarney]

IMHO: This is a fine approach if you have a pair of speakers that you like for a lot of reasons, but for whatever reasons, they sound bad to you. However, IF the speakers were designed well in the first place, there was a LOT more to it than an FR or two.  In our process, we made many measurements on axis, off axis (above and below as well as laterally many angles). We also measured and took into account many other factors including frequency-time info and distortion. And we tried to correlate the measurements to listening tests. IF you change caps, you definitely want them to better matched than the standard 10%, we matched left and right much closer than that. And, you want them to be as close to the same actual value as the original design, or it will certainly sound different, but highly unlikely to be better. Main thing though, have fun and enjoy the music, so if you want to switch out parts, try to keep the values as close as possible to the originals both in their primary value (IE: inductors= inductance, but DCR is also a factor).

Well, I *know* the designer created great designs! Yes, I am making sure that parts/combinations of parts are matched to the original values on the crossover. I am obtaining high-quality components so I hope for only improvement, if possible.

@Jeff_From_Michigan - I am currently using a DIY IcePower 1200AS2 amp I build with a kit from Guntars Smits. I also have some old stuff, a Carver TFM-22 and a Hafler XL280. I am a budget audiophile/wannabe but am looking at other things I can do to improve my system.

Geoff

[newzooreview]

If you are curious about upgrades on the DIY amp side of the equation, the new Hypex Nilai kits objectively sound much better than the older ICE modules. Alpha Sound has some very well-controlled listening tests comparing the new Hypex to ICE and Purifi Class D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdZFAWe1Nxo

With reasonably good headphones, the differences are easily audible. Their recording studio, microphones, and reference system are excellent. This is not some guy with his phone recording audio while wandering up to the speakers to get a closer look at the woodgrain.

The kits are available here (though I understand they go out of stock): https://www.diyclassd.com/products/diy-amplifier-kits/

[Capt. Z]

Of course it's hard to be 100% certain, but I'd bet all those components are still doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Put on some good music and enjoy:)

Thanks for pointing this out. I was just getting ready to post a question, if my Sapphire III which I build the x-over with parts from ACI around 20 or 25 years ago. Though the low pass filter from the Sub one are from the beginning of the '90s.

[Tyson]

If you are curious about upgrades on the DIY amp side of the equation, the new Hypex Nilai kits objectively sound much better than the older ICE modules. Alpha Sound has some very well-controlled listening tests comparing the new Hypex to ICE and Purifi Class D: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdZFAWe1Nxo

With reasonably good headphones, the differences are easily audible. Their recording studio, microphones, and reference system are excellent. This is not some guy with his phone recording audio while wandering up to the speakers to get a closer look at the woodgrain.

The kits are available here (though I understand they go out of stock): https://www.diyclassd.com/products/diy-amplifier-kits/

That can't be right.  I know many measurement objectivists that told me many, many times that the Purifi Class D amps were the best amps ever and they had the measurements to prove it. 

/sarcasm