[jackman]

Hey Doc,
Your opinion is appreciated but you failed to suggest a car that fits his needs in his $25-30K pricerange.  I don't think you can get an M5 or a 7 series in this range unless it has a lot of miles or years on it.  

What car turns your crank in this price range?  Remember, he's looking for an everyday driver, not a weekend racer.  Which car is more fun than a B'mer and has "guts" in this range?  I tried the G35 and it just didn't do it for me.  I love the performance of the Lancer Evo but the styling and cost to maintain are two things that I could not live with.

It's difficult (at least for me) to pick a car that can be driven every day, that is fun to drive, gets decent mileage, is reliable and sells for under 30K.

[Carlman]

That's just weird, Shane... were they all old and beat up?  The base-model 325 I drove last night was fantastic.  It's as if it was made to address every requirement for a new car I had.

I've driven the 5-series quite a bit and wasn't overly impressed in the past but had never driven a newish 3-series... only really old ones.. (like early 80's... which I also liked even though it had failing electrics)  

Maybe you just like bigger cars?  That was my only complaint about the Avalon... it's size... just a very big car.  The 325 is a little bigger than what I have but doesn't feel any bigger.  It handled fairly well even without the sport suspension... WAY better than Audi A4 with stock suspension.  

Anywho, I've been searching... and it looks like I can find some nice CPO's within my price requirements.. I love the base models.  I really don't want any of the packages.  I'd rather buy my own aftermarket 'sport' package...

-C

[skrivis]

Hey,

I'm late to the party, and admittedly didn't read every single post... but after hearing Carl mention test driving cars the last couple times we chatted, I clicked on a post link and saw some of the comments...

I am seriously in the minority here I think... I just don't like BMW... every single model I've driven below the M5 immediately made me say out loud "Gutless" and "Yuck" no matter if real world numbers confirm that sentiment or not.  I just didn't like the torque curve or the feel of the c ...

I actually do like BMW. They do a nice blend of sporty and practical. Sports sedan is the right name for this.

However, I find that I'm now more inclined to go with a comfortable, competent, reliable car, and the sporty part isn't a major factor. Then again, I live in the middle of the Rust Belt, and salt just destroys roads, so there isn't a lot of fun to be had driving here.

[JohnnyLightOn]

Carl, do yourself a favor and STAY OUT OF ANY BMW THAT'S NOT A 325! I was "ruined" by starting out with riding & driving in an M5 frequently. So now I want as good or better than that when I get a BMW.

I must disagree with you.  The 3 series *is* what BMW is about, to the core. I have many miles in almost all their cars.  The 5 series, while I would seriously consider one for my daily driver, is far less a true BMW than the 3.  It just doesn't have as much of that magic BMW driver-car connection.  It's a true compromise between the sportiness of the 3 and the luxury of the 7, and gives up a lot in both departments.  The only thing you get with the 5 series over the 3 series is more luxury, more room, and more power.  But you give up a lot of driving fun to get this (including the M5, which I have driven for many fast miles and think it's great).  If I could have my choice of any BMW, it would be the current M3.  I would take that any day over the M5.

I drove a friend's 325i from Mammoth to Los Angeles through Red Rock Canyon State Park, a stretch with long and beautiful sweepers.  Before I hit the curves, it was a nice enough car but I didn't notice anything unusual about it.  Through the curves I let myself just drive, and was really impressed by how well it handled and how confidence inspiring it was.  I looked down at the speedo inside a long curve: 110mph.  Without even feeling like I was pushing it.

Note that the back seat of most cars of this size (330i and A4 especially, but not G35) is pretty cramped.  I seem to recall you wanted to take business associates in your car.  If you'll have four people for anything other than a short ride, I think you need something bigger.  If you only have someone in the front seat, then no worries.  

Edited to add: I owned a 6 series for years.  I like almost all BMWs, and I'd be happy with any of them.  My comments above have to do with the fun-to-drive factor.  The 6 had little of that, but was a damn nice car to drive every day.  I enjoyed it every time I got in.

[mcgsxr]

I have to say that the 3 series (any vintage) is a great drivers car.  I had the little hatchback, with the girly 1.8 138hp motor, and that thing would just stick to the road, and with the Brembo brakes I put on it, it would really haul down from speed.

Now, the newer ones are heavier, and larger, and more luxurious, but I cannot help thinking they maintain the spirit of that little Ti as best they can.

Then again, I traded it in for a 2003 Accord V6 and really like this car too (zzzzziiiiiiippppp on goes the flame suit!     )....

Drive em, and buy what you you dig.  Period.

[Carlman]

Before I hit the curves, it was a nice enough car but I didn't notice anything unusual about it. Through the curves I let myself just drive, and was really impressed by how well it handled and how confidence inspiring it was...

That's exactly how I felt.  I drove it for 30 minutes... and I didn't want to get out.  It was like 2 cars in one... with refinement in both.

Note that the back seat of most cars of this size (330i and A4 especially, but not G35) is pretty cramped. I seem to recall you wanted to take business associates in your car. If you'll have four people for anything other than a short ride, I think you need something bigger.  ...

The backseat was adequate for lunches and the type of things I'd need.  I don't go on long trips with my clients.  They don't have to lean in any direction to get comfortable like they would in a Jetta, Mazda6, or some other cars.  I wouldn't like to see it with 3 people in the backseat... not good.  Women don't need to worry about their skirts, there's a good trunk for coats and laptops... It's 'adequate' all the way around which is great.  I don't like under or over-utilizing a vehicle.  

Then again, I traded it in for a 2003 Accord V6 and really like this car too (zzzzziiiiiiippppp on goes the flame suit!     )....
Drive em, and buy what you you dig.  Period.

Holy Cow! How? (edit, oopsy, the '03 was a different car than the '05 I drove... I think they've found ways to produce it cheaper which is likely the reason for my opinion.) I drove the Honda coupe and sedan a couple of days ago and couldn't have been less impressed.  I guess my expectations were a little high... But, the things I valued weren't there and likely the things you valued were... That's why there are so many cars... I mean the HTDoc thinks the 3-series isn't worth a crap.... It's just what you like/appreciate/turns you on.  The 3-series is the first car I've driven this year that actually got me excited about cars again.

-C

[hometheaterdoc]

Hey Doc,
Your opinion is appreciated but you failed to suggest a car that fits his needs in his $25-30K pricerange.  I don't think you can get an M5 or a 7 series in this range unless it has a lot of miles or years on it.  

What car turns your crank in this price range?  Remember, he's looking for an everyday driver, not a weekend racer.  Which car is more fun than a B'mer and has "guts" in this range?  I tried the G35 and it just didn't do it for me.  I love the performance of the Lancer Evo but the s ...

The truth is, running my HT business, with the requisite requirements for hauling big equipment boxes around, I don't drive a car.... and haven't for quite some time.  My rig does double duty... as a result, I drive a tweaked Toyota Tundra.... and have left every single beemer that's tried in my wake, including in the twisties.. which likely says more about my penchance for driving stupidly beyond the limits of the vehicle or the other drivers lack of cahones than the actual performance capabilities of either rig....

The last time I looked at cars, which admittedly was years ago, the nissan maxima was one of the best combos of comfort and sportiness I tried... but looking at photos of the new models just now, they are seriously butt ugly.

The nissan 350Z with a few aftermarket tweaks would be my pick, although it doesn't have extra seats for more than one client and there are few too many of them around town to really stand out.  I really liked the balance of this car when I had one on extended loan....

As to something that is fun, but I would never buy it.... take the new Pontiac GTO out for a spin... god awful Pontiac look, typical nasty GM intrumentation, body lines that only a GM fan could love... and it likely won't hold together over the long term....... but that LS2 under the hood makes for a fun spin around the block

[Carlman]

I drive a tweaked Toyota Tundra.... and have left every single beemer that's tried in my wake, including in the twisties.. which likely says more about my penchance for driving stupidly beyond the limits of the vehicle or the other drivers lack of cahones than the actual performance capabilities of either rig...

OK, you're on.  When I buy it, you and me are going to an autocross, VIR, or somewhere.  Beauty vs. the Beast.  

[Hantra]

I think Shane is like some others.  When I first got my 330 I thought "well this isn't as fast as my Maxima". . . But man it's the ultra flat torque curve that gets you.  You soon realize it's MUCH faster than you thought.  

There are innumerable advantages to a flat torque curve, many of which we'd never experience, but it's nice to have and not need versus the alternative.

BTW, I just got into Annapolis and I got 30.6mpg even with that DC traffic.

 

[hometheaterdoc]

Hey,  I respect everyone's thoughts that BMW is great.  As someone earlier pointed out, everyone looks for different things.  I personally think the BMW stuff is too refined.  I like a little rough and tumble, and dancing on the edge, in my rigs.  If it takes more and more to push something to the edge, what's the fun in that.... It's tough to find good spots to really push cars around here anyways...

Doing Daytona at 150+MPH was nowhere near as much fun (downright boring actually) as pushing a Toyota Corolla to the point of fuel shutoff at 130MPH.  Talk about a dancingly light rear end

Different strokes I guess....

[Hantra]

Doing Daytona at 150+MPH was nowhere near as much fun (downright boring actually) as pushing a Toyota Corolla to the point of fuel shutoff at 130MPH...

130!?  I had no idea!  

[bob53]

I have to chime in here, being a big car nut

The newest BMW 3 series is not nearly the drivers car the older 3 series are - takw for example the newest M3, fun car but lacks that connection to the road the older M3's had...  The body roll that car has is shameful and now around sharp corners it does not warn you like the previous M3 when understeer is imminent...  Don't get me wrong the new inline 6 is a dream of a motor (despite the fact BMW really messed up the oiling system design on the new M3 - they stilll can oil starve at high revs), but it just is not the same car anymore...  To put things into perspective, BMW is considered the chevy of Germany - they are nice but can't hold a candle to MB or Porsche with regard to build quality and refinement...  

For under 30K - you have lots of options but it depends what you are looking for:

1) Nissan 350Z - not quite the timeless styling of the previous Z car but for the money it is quite a car

2) Subaru WRX - less of the wanna-be rally racer look than the Evo (sorry I just can't look at the Evo without thinking 18 year olds designed it).

3) Acura TSX - nice car that is peppy wthat is more practical, nice styling too

4) Look for a used Audi S4 Avant station wagon - just think of a turboed grocery getter that can outrun many sporty cars  My kinda car

5) Used C5 vette - you can find nice vettes 1997-2001 for ~ 30K or less - now were talking power but you lose two seats  Not the typical poor GM build quality either, and since most vette owners are real anal it will likely be very nice - trust me coming from an anal vette owner

Bob

[JohnnyLightOn]

1) Nissan 350Z - not quite the timeless styling of the previous Z car but for the money it is quite a car

With due respect, I don't think this is a practical choice for an everyday car.  The Infiniti G35 coupe has 90% of the Z's capability (and is made with probably 90% of the Z's mechanical parts) but with a ride and interior space that you can actually live with.  The 350Z is really intended for very young men or for Sunday drives, unless you are willing to get beat up by the road and not be able to carry anything.  The G35 is a genuine driver's car that you can live with but still can drive the hell out of.

[mcgsxr]

Holy Cow! How? (edit, oopsy, the '03 was a different car than the '05 I drove... I think they've found ways to produce it cheaper which is likely the reason for my opinion.) I drove the Honda coupe and sedan a couple of days ago and couldn't have been less impressed. I guess my expectations were a little high... But, the things I valued weren't there and likely the things you valued were

Yeah, I am at the life stage of 1 baby seat, and an infant seat to be added in the coming months, so 4 doors were a major requirement...

Go get what you love, and drive the wheels off it!

[hometheaterdoc]

Doing Daytona at 150+MPH was nowhere near as much fun (downright boring actually) as pushing a Toyota Corolla to the point of fuel shutoff at 130MPH...

130!?  I had no idea!  

that's estimated.. the speedo was only rated for 110...and the car was supposed to be drag limited to around 115...  but in cartoonish fashion, the speedo was wound all the way around and seemed like it was starting up the other side again before the fireworks started  I seriously thought I blew it up...  based on measured gaps in the speedo for 10mph increments, it was at least 130... i guess I had a heck of a tail wind that morning....

and I was outrunning a 3 series at the time not far from where you live.... he either couldn't or wouldn't keep up....

[Carlman]

and I was outrunning a 3 series at the time not far from where you live.... he either couldn't or wouldn't keep up........

OK Cap'n Braggy McBragerson..... it is SO on..

[Jay S]

Good point re the flat torque curve of the e46 330.  It also applies to the 189 hp 2.5L, though to a lesser degree.  Peaky motors feel fast but it is torque that throws you down the road.  BMW has been very focused on developing very wide power bands in recent years -- by raising and widening the torque curve you get great pulling power at low rpm and great high rpm power.  These don't show up too clearly on the spec sheet -- the 330's engine is not the hp per liter champ -- but if you look at the acceleration figures you will notice that the car is faster than you'd expect.  

Its too bad that the E90's new 3.0L didn't debut with the E46.... its an even better engine, with ~260 hp (naturally aspirated) and even better torque characteristics.  I reserve final judgment until I drive an E90 but in my mind I now view it as a sporty 5-series in its size and character.  Hence, I am thinking that I may get a nice low-mileage E46 330 and keep it for a long time...

On a side note, I rather like the 1 series!  The rear looks truly weird but the front is beautiful and the cockpit is small, intimate and purposeful, just like my old E36 3-series.  A friend drove one with the Sport suspension (expecting little) and came out amazed, saying it was the most fun he's had outside of a Porsche.  I am hoping that BMW comes out with a sedan version now that the E90 5 series, oops, 3 series is out.

[Hantra]

and I was outrunning a 3 series at the time not far from where you live.... he either couldn't or wouldn't keep up....

That's hilarious!  I don't think I'd try to keep up either.  I wonder at what speed the Corolla gets so nervous it starts shedding parts or goes airborne.  130 HAS to be close.  

Ohh Carl. . . It clearly is on.  

[claud]

Carl, every guy/girl that really likes cars needs to own at least one 3 series BMW. You really like cars, ergo DO IT!! I agree with the others, that the current bodystyle looks better than the new one.
If you were going to spend 20s, I would say Acura TSX 5spd(had one). For a bit more, get the Beemer with a stick since that will be a real BMW, not a chick impresser. Just don't expect Acura/Toyota, ie. Jap  build quality.

[EProvenzano]

With due respect, I don't think this is a practical choice for an everyday car.  The Infiniti G35 coupe has 90% of the Z's capability (and is made with probably 90% of the Z's mechanical parts) but with a ride and interior space that you can actually live with.  The 350Z is really intended for very young men or for Sunday drives, unless you are willing to get beat up by the road and not be able to carry anything.  The G35 is a genuine driver's car that you can live with but still can drive the hell out of.

Agree 100%
I also think the G35 styling is awsome....great lines through the rear window and headlights.