Felicia Balancing PowerConditioner Constructor's Thread

DaveJB · « **Reply #460 on:** 29 May 2007, 11:35 am »

Has anyone got recent UK experience of the 'Felix'? I'm interested in building a pair to power my ATC 50A speakers - 350w amps built into each speaker. Nothing on the Felix thread indicates values for components.

Dave

andyr · « **Reply #461 on:** 29 May 2007, 11:43 am »

Quote from: DaveJB on 29 May 2007, 11:35 am

Has anyone got recent UK experience of the 'Felix'? I'm interested in building a pair to power my ATC 50A speakers - 350w amps built into each speaker. Nothing on the Felix thread indicates values for components.

Dave

I think you are confoosed!

AIUI, the Felicia is strictly for low power-draw source components ... not power amps.

Regards,

Andy

DaveJB · « **Reply #462 on:** 29 May 2007, 12:47 pm »

Andy,

This is often true - that I'm confused

- but not this time. Which is why I said 'Felix' not 'Felicia'. No entries have been made on the other thread for several months so I hope to gain attention here.

My Felicia channels are working really well - the Felix might help further downstream.

Dave

BRN · « **Reply #463 on:** 29 May 2007, 03:02 pm »

I what to thank Occam, JoshK and anyone else that provided input and help for the Felix. I finally got a chance to listen to my Filex and I must say that it is a nice improvement to the overall sound. Bottom line I'm hearing more information with no apparent loss in dynamics. I built it in a RS project box with 3 JW Miller 8120 CMCs, X2 caps in the following values on both sides of the CMCs 0.01/0.1/0.47uFs and an outlet for each. I have my Bottlehead Paramounts and BolderCable Modded SB2 connected to it. I will next connect my subs to the same outlets as my amps to see if there is an improvement.

andyr · « **Reply #464 on:** 29 May 2007, 08:32 pm »

Quote from: DaveJB on 29 May 2007, 12:47 pm

Andy,

This is often true - that I'm confused - but not this time. Which is why I said 'Felix' not 'Felicia'.

Dave

Aah ... right! Sorry.

Andy

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #465 on:** 30 May 2007, 03:59 am »

I had a chance to borrow Gordy's Felix a few weeks ago...a very nice improvement in the sound of the my system.....and much more compact than the Felicia. Its well worth the effort to build one.....

doug s. · « **Reply #466 on:** 30 May 2007, 12:49 pm »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 30 May 2007, 03:59 am

I had a chance to borrow Gordy's Felix a few weeks ago...a very nice improvement in the sound of the my system.....and much more compact than the Felicia. Its well worth the effort to build one.....

i understand this is on its way to me; i am looking forward to trying it on my preamp & sources; not sure it will have enough juice for me to try on my amps.

i am also looking forward to comparing it to this furman balanced power conditioner i yust sniped on ebay. at this price, it was hard to resist. now, if i could only find something more substantial at a similar price for my amps! aa

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13011697356

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=IT-REF_7

doug s.

BRN · « **Reply #467 on:** 30 May 2007, 01:40 pm »

I use the Felix with my amps and have no problems. I built it with the JW Miller 8120 common mode inductor which is rated for 17 amps. I use one for each amp and SB2 for a total of 3 inductors. If you feel that you need a higher rated inductor there is the 8121 rated at 20 amps.

Occam · « **Reply #468 on:** 30 May 2007, 02:10 pm »

Brn,

First, sorry about the delayed response about your shocking revelation. I shouldn't make light of it, as while that shock from the prongs of an unplugged Felicia/Felix with undischarged caps is unlikely to cause physical harm, the shock itself could well cause one to fall or result in secondary injuries.
You can address this with a bleeder resistor across the line on the plug end. This will discharge the capacitor (which could be charged to 1.414 the line voltage). An approximately 100k flameproof 2 watt resistor should do this well.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=41&ObjectGroup_ID=569&SO=2
You'd simply parallel 2 220k resistors (10 for 69cents) across the line at the plug end, or for a quicker discharge, 2 x 100k. The 2 are suggested as the resistors are only one watt, and 2 gives a margin for failure. A net 110k resistor across a 120vac line is going to draw a bit more that one milliamp of ac continuously, about .14 watt.
If you've more that one Felix/Felicia fed from the same cord, you just need one (set) of those resistors to discharge the caps. Similarly, parallel Feli could share input caps. Rather than 3 sets of .47, .1 and .01uf for a 3 parallel unit Felix, one single set consisting of a 1.5, .1 and .01uf should work well, but the outputs of each Felix would have their own same caps.

I'm curious about your results when you plug your subs into the Felixs. I've run a whole (modest) system through a single 8120 based Felix and been surprised by the effectiveness. An alternative is to build additional Felixs so that you can provide isolation between components. You might consider giving each of the subs their own 8120 (17amps) based Feli, and for your SB ps and Paramounts. higher inductance. lower current versions. A 9amp 8118 should handle the 200watt max???? draw of a Paramount, and the 8117 should handle the <20watt draw of the SB power supply.

All things being equal, load, caps, etc... when you double the inductance you lower the lowpass frequency by a factor of 1.414 (Sqrt(2)) and do the same for the 'Q' of the filter's pole, which are very good things.....

Note - If you use inductors rated for less than the 15/20 amps of your outlet (differs outside of N.A.) one should fuse the input of that Felix with a fuse/breaker rated <= than that of the inductor. I wouldn't want to walk away from a Felix with a 3amp rated coil feeding a plasma TV consuming 700watts.

doug s. · « **Reply #469 on:** 30 May 2007, 03:08 pm »

i understand that the felix i am getting is rated about 10a - likely not quite enough for a pair of electrocompaniet aw75dmb's driving my subs, & a soon to arrive mesa baron amp for my mains. but, i may still try it out, at modest sound level. if it works out, then i need to build one (or have one built for me), w/more mondo transformers. i want one w/a least five separate inputs - one for each amp, (the mesa has two power cords - monoblocks on a single chassis), and a fifth for the outboard active x-over...

doug s.

Quote from: BRN on 30 May 2007, 01:40 pm

I use the Felix with my amps and have no problems. I built it with the JW Miller 8120 common mode inductor which is rated for 17 amps. I use one for each amp and SB2 for a total of 3 inductors. If you feel that you need a higher rated inductor there is the 8121 rated at 20 amps.

BRN · « **Reply #470 on:** 30 May 2007, 03:36 pm »

Occam,

After I posted about my shocking revelation I remembered from my Bottlehead builds that they use bleed resistors in their PS for just that reason. I should have posted a follow-up with that information.

My Felixs are completely based on your design and parts recommendations. The design is basically 3 parallel Felixs with their own set of caps being fed from the same cord. I will be trying the Felix with the sub and post my results. Also, I will have to give different inductors a try and see what effect they have on the sound.

Gordy · « **Reply #471 on:** 30 May 2007, 10:25 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 30 May 2007, 03:08 pm

i understand that the felix i am getting is rated about 10a - likely not quite enough...

Hello tuna man!

The Felix coming your way is a twin 10a version, the coils are in series, built as a comparo to a single coil. The amps I used were bridged 3886 chip amps, each fed with it's own 300va/25v 14kuF supply. 6a fuses have survived a couple years of power up inrush so, even with a tube preamp and cdp on line, I seriously doubt the Felix's have seen more than 4-5 amps powering the whole shebang. Those mondos might be a bit hairy!

Joey B · « **Reply #472 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 02:19 pm »

Hi All

Just finished a Felicia build . This is way better than I ever dreamed it would be . Expanded sound stage , expanded tone colors , everything more there , there . I want to personally thank Occam and Josh K. for the R & D on this project .

Has anyone done a schematic on the Felix that I could view . I can't really picture how the CMC's are wired into the circuit .

Thanks again

Joey B

JoshK · « **Reply #473 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 02:52 pm »

I don't think anyone has sketched one out, but here is a link that explains it in words...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0

The CMC is super simple. There are two coil windings, one is in series on the hot, one in series on the neutral. If you measure ohms of the coils, you will get a very small reading if you are measuring across the coils, if you measure from one coil to the other it will be an open circuit. The CMC's aren't directional, just don't reverse one coil relative to the other or it won't work.

this is the best I can do with asci

H ---@@@@----
======
N ---@@@@----

the @'s are the coils
the ='s is the coil's core

Its like a normal transformer turned sideways...

Occam · « **Reply #474 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 04:05 pm »

I've just added a schematic (second post) to the Felix thread that Josh referenced -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.0

Joey B · « **Reply #475 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 07:11 pm »

I see

Is there a concensus on which JW Miller 8100 series to use . I see the mh and amperage value change with each unit .

thanks
Joey B

Occam · « **Reply #476 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 07:41 pm »

Nor should there be. Ideally, you want as much inductance as possible without constraining required current draw. And some components just don't mesh with any sort of conditioner. My CAT-SL1 preamp is a good example of this. Oftentimes such components have their own conditioning efforts implemented internally, and they can sometime interact with externally provided conditioners. On some components its beneficial to remove the extant conditioning (if you know what you're doing) and use external. There are no hard and fast rules.

Quote from: Occam on 30 May 2007, 02:10 pm

I'm curious about your results when you plug your subs into the Felixs. I've run a whole (modest) system through a single 8120 based Felix and been surprised by the effectiveness. An alternative is to build additional Felixs so that you can provide isolation between components. You might consider giving each of the subs their own 8120 (17amps) based Feli, and for your SB ps and Paramounts. higher inductance. lower current versions. A 9amp 8118 should handle the 200watt max???? draw of a Paramount, and the 8117 should handle the <20watt draw of the SB power supply.

All things being equal, load, caps, etc... when you double the inductance you lower the lowpass frequency by a factor of 1.414 (Sqrt(2)) and do the same for the 'Q' of the filter's pole, which are very good things.....

Note - If you use inductors rated for less than the 15/20 amps of your outlet (differs outside of N.A.) one should fuse the input of that Felix with a fuse/breaker rated <= than that of the inductor. I wouldn't want to walk away from a Felix with a 3amp rated coil feeding a plasma TV consuming 700watts.

BobM · « **Reply #477 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 07:45 pm »

I agree. I have an Audio Prism preamp. The sound is overly constrained whenever I have tried an external power conditioner on it - of any type from a simple cap across the +/- to chokes to a Felix. That's probably because they have implemented their own proprietary power conditioning inside and doubling up is not a good thing. I'm also not prone to pulling it out and going external either though.

I've also found that any kind of choked conditioning on my amps causes a choked sound, but this is a well known and common condition. Extra caps across the lines definitelty help here though (haven't tried a Felix, but I'm tempted to).

Enjoy,
Bob

DaveJB · « **Reply #478 on:** 3 Jun 2007, 06:26 pm »

Well, my 6 channel Felicia is finished and working and I'm happy to post pics if someone can point me to instructions.

Dave

Joey B · « **Reply #479 on:** 4 Jun 2007, 05:53 pm »

After Further review ....

I checked out the schematic that Paul posted . The caps on the Felix are not going to be a good match for another project I have I have been contemplating . Doing a Hammand 193M choke on the 1st dedicated AC recepticle . The chokes are not a good match with caps across the line .

I assume i'm good with the Felicia on my front end , those caps would be separrated from the choke by the A41 transformers .

Thanks

Joey B