Felicia Balancing PowerConditioner Constructor's Thread

ozone_stink · « **Reply #360 on:** 10 Oct 2006, 08:47 pm »

Occam,

I'm not trying to ignore you...

Sorry about that. Yes, I will build the Felicia both ways and let you know if my ears can pick anything up.

Failing that, I'll put the cats in front of the speakers and see whether they run away at different rates / times with both setups.

I'd love to have a signal gen & scope. I hear you can rig such things up using your PC sound card, but I doubt they have the resolution you might want to quote.

Occam · « **Reply #361 on:** 10 Oct 2006, 10:09 pm »

Quote from: ozone_stink on 10 Oct 2006, 08:33 pm

I've got a strange question:

I've come across a couple of Step Up/Down transformers from 115V to 230V rated at 500VA.

If I put them a$$ to teakettle as follows:

From Mains -> 110V IN -> 230V OUT --> 230V IN -> 110V OUT with caps parallel caps between, will I:

1) Blow myself up / wreck my caps & light my hair on fire -OR-
2) Have an isolation transformer that might work for an amp with a 420W draw?

Sorry for the notsoschmart questions...

Not strange at all, just scary as hell.
NEVER, EVER, take an AC voltage higher than necessary.

1. Double the voltage and quadruple the danger. Its as simple as Ohms law.
2. You CANNOT use those foil caps, but rather X2 (250vac+) or preferably x1(500vac+) caps, or if you really know what you're doing at least 630vdc metalized caps that at least provide self healing capabilities with fusing everywhere.
3. You don't know if those transformers provide limited bandwidth and noise passage. Unless they have either a grounded shield between primary and secondary, or multiple bobbins with adequate 'creepage' (physical separation between primary and secondary), they could well be useless for this application. irrespective of their voltage conversion abilities. Worse yet, they could possibly be autotransformers, Which are often misidentified as voltage conversion transformers, and would be useless and potentially very dangerous in this application.
4. Unless that amp with 420va consumption is a Class A amp with a very, very competently implemented inductor input power supply (as opposed to capacitor input) I can guarantee you that those transformers will saturate. While the va consumption might lead you to think that the current demands wouldn't cause saturation, capacitive input power supplies typically charge with current pulses substantially greater than a simple calculation would indicate. The greater the capacitance, the higher and shorter the pulses.

You've asked a very reasonable question, and I don't mean to 'smack you upside the head', but implementing a Felicia with those intermediate voltages, is at minimum 10x as dangerous as those with <50vac secondary voltages. Please don't.

ozone_stink · « **Reply #362 on:** 10 Oct 2006, 10:17 pm »

Option 1) it is then.

Thanks for the warning. I will not attempt this.

Cheers!!

I believe I'll try samplesj technique and place a bypass between and after.

So, I'll try it 3 ways, I guess.

mgalusha · « **Reply #363 on:** 11 Oct 2006, 02:13 am »

The Signal trannies are on their way to Montreal, so Matt won't have to do the high voltage dance.

Given how well my Felicia worked I suspect you'll be happy with the results. I ultimately ended up using my BPT as it was a bit better but Felicia is killer for the amount of time and $$ invested.

ozone_stink · « **Reply #364 on:** 11 Oct 2006, 07:08 pm »

Thanks a million Mike!!

I can't wait!!

Another silly question:

I know for sure that my 2-prong CDP will not reap any benefit whatsoever from Balanced power alone.

However, can I still build the Felicia as a 'Balanced' and plug my CDP into it? -In the event that I get something with a ground I'd like to be 'ready to roll' so to speak.

Thanks.

Occam · « **Reply #365 on:** 11 Oct 2006, 09:35 pm »

Felicia, configured to produce balanced power, works just fine for non grounded to mains components. My experience is that that even with mains grounded components, the majority of the benefit is pure power conditioning, and not the cancellation of reactive leakage currents. Anyone can verify this by simply disconnecting the output center-tap ground connection on their Felicia, giving you 'isolated' as opposed to 'technical' power.
Certainly, technical (balanced) power can certainly help with ground related problems, leakage and ground loop caused hum, but that is not a problem for non grounded components.

ozone_stink · « **Reply #366 on:** 12 Oct 2006, 07:27 pm »

Now that I'm finished, I'll change the pins below to reflect what works in my setup.

OK, backtracking to my previous post where I asked for Pin # assignments as they relate to the Signal A41 Series transformers. I will not include the fuses...assume they're there.

I have found that answering my own questions (with Occam's help!!) and correcting them has been a learning experience.

Ingress Transformer (i.e. from mains):

Hot Primary goes to Pin 1

Neutral goes to Pin 6

Pins 2 and 5 are tied together to put the Trannie in 'Series' (which also downrates the trannie to ~ 175VA / 2)

Pins 7 and 12 are used to connect to Egress Transformer's Pins 7 and 12. (also the first cap / filter group C1 - C3 go here with labels aligned so that writing is in the same direction)

Pins 8 and 11 are tied together (to complete the circuit).

Egress Transformer (i.e. to equipment):

Pin 7 connects to Ingress Transformer Pin 7

Pin 12 connects to Ingress Transformer Pin 12

Pin 1 is Hot (actually 60V AC)

Pin 6 is Neutral (actually -60V AC) (also the second cap / filter group C5 - C6 go here with labels aligned so that writing is in the same direction)

Pin 5 and Pin 2 are tied together to Earth (0V AC)

Note on Caps:

I didn't include the 0.01uF caps in the above. I would call these caps C4 and/or C7. I bypassed filter group 1 and filter group 2 with these.

Occam · « **Reply #367 on:** 12 Oct 2006, 08:27 pm »

Matt,

You've got is correct, save for -

1. On each of the transformers, pins 8 & 11 are tied together, otherwise you'll lack a completed circuit and no current can flow from the input to the output transformer

2. I get really confused with the phasing from input to output, though I did know off the top of my head a year ago. When you've got it hooked up do the following -

Measure the voltage from the input 'hot' to the output 'hot' (actually +60vac)
Measure the voltage from the input 'neutral' to the output 'neutral' (the -60vac)
If both read 60vac, everything is phased correctly.
If the 'hot' to 'hot' voltage measures 180vac and the 'neutral' to 'neutral' measures 60vac you're 180 degrees out of phase. The reason you don't want this is that in the highly probable event that when you hold one live wire and forget the standard practice of keeping your other hand in your pocket, and you touch the wrong wire or leaking component, it is far preferable to have 60vac running through your body rather than 180vac, though otherwise it will work just fine.

If you're out of phase, simply flip the secondary connections on ONE of the transformers, and remeasure. As the transformers have .25" male 'quick connect' its really a good idea to wire those connections using female .25" female 'quick connects'.

Once you've verified the phasing is correct, make a double check -
Measure the voltage from the input 'hot' to the output 'hot' (actually +60vac)
Measure the voltage from the input 'neutral' to the output 'neutral' (the -60vac)
If both read 60vac, everything is phased correctly.
You should measure 60vac from your output 'hot' to ground.
You should measure 60vac from your output 'neutral' to ground.
You should measure 120vac from your output 'hot' to output 'neutral'.

Please post about your progress and your impressions when Felicia is up and running, powering a component.

I can't post anymore as my wife is in packing mode. She is demanding that I try on various pieces of clothing that she is sure, that although they fit last week, they won't fit now. We'll be in Tuscany for the next week+ and I'll be back on the Sunday following this weekend.

JoshK will be filling in as Moderator of the Lab, and he is quite familiar with Felicia (both technically and Biblically), as we did the initial development together, and the project is named after his wife.

Happy wiring,
Paul

ozone_stink · « **Reply #368 on:** 12 Oct 2006, 09:08 pm »

Hi Occam,

Tuscany, Italy I presume. -Please forgive me but the only thing I seem to know about American geography is that practically any European city is also a town/village/city in some state somewhere too.

Enjoy the vacation!! Really, though, your wife should be verifying that your clothes still fit AFTER the vacation in Italy!!

Thank you so much for your help and patience with this. I wouldn't be able to build without your help!!

ozone_stink · « **Reply #369 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 05:26 pm »

Wooohooo!!! Got the trannies today.

Our respective national postal services did themselves proud in terms of beating the crap out of them, though.

At any rate, they're pretty simple devices and I think the damage isn't anything a pair of pliers can't fix. The rest is cosmetic.

I'll set my Fluke to ohms and test continuity where it should be.

As a bonus, they're pre-jumpered.

Can't wait to get crackin.

As a side note, I'm also looking at replacing the voltage regs in my CDP. Will the Felicia obviate this requirement?

I've got the following:

Digital
U981 031 NJM7815FA I C (REGULATOR +15VDC)
U982 031 NJM7915FA I C (REGULATOR -15VDC)

Analog
U901,931,961 031 SI3050J I C (REGULATOR +5VDC)

mgalusha · « **Reply #370 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 06:06 pm »

Glad to hear the trannies arrived. Somehow I figured they would air drop them from the plane.

Two of them are jumpered, the other two are as they came from the vendor. Check them carefully against Paul's schematics before going to far.

ozone_stink · « **Reply #371 on:** 18 Oct 2006, 06:44 pm »

Will do!!

Thank you again for your help!!

I am extremely grateful for yours and Occam's assistance with this!!

Joey B · « **Reply #372 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 04:24 pm »

Which transformers are now being used for building the Felicia's ? Where might they be purchased ?

Tia

Joey B

Gordy · « **Reply #373 on:** 20 Oct 2006, 05:16 pm »

Hi Joey,

That would be the continuing problem for Felicia builders, finding a proper inexpensive tranny. You can try looking on Ebay for Magnetek VPS28-6250's. We used them to build three Felicia's for Natureboy's system with great success. They should go for $10 or less, plus shipping...

Other than that, I recall Occam mentioning some custom spec'd jobbie's he had made but, IIRC, they would run in the $40 range, too $$$ to conform to the intent of the project really. Occam may be able to add something once he returns from his bourgeois truffle hunting expedition...

ozone_stink · « **Reply #374 on:** 22 Oct 2006, 09:10 pm »

So, I made it.

I'll correct pin-outs from last post soon. OK. This is done.

Here are the pix:

- 1st Filter Group. (18uF Solen Polyprop. 400V, 0.47 Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.1 uF Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.01 uF Solen Film & Foil 1200V)
- At work, they ripped out satellite ant. from roof. All this coax with 10 Guage solid copper core, what's a guy to do?

- 2nd Filter Group. (0.47 Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.1 uF Solen Film & Foil 630V, 0.01 uF Solen Film & Foil 1200V)
- F2 & F3 2A 250VAC Fast blow.
- Soldered ground wire directly to ground pin on back of Hubbell inlet.
- Soldered everything else (except the leads to panel meter) because solder is fun.

- Front of unit. Simpson panel meter 600 VAC is due to be replaced by Burlington 90 - 130 VAC RMS panel meter.

- Front & Side & Top (for the geometry challenged

)

- Front & Top (black is reflected in varnish at bottom)

- I used Brazillian Cashew hardwood. I wish the photos did this wood justice!!

- Back. IEC Inlet (Mains In), 250V 1A "Fast-Blow" fuse. [wouldn't that make a great drivethru name?]
- Hubbell Inlet (to Source)

Comments & Observations:
- The back and bottom are screwed & glued (oh yes, the irony is not lost on me) together in an 'L' pattern [1]. The front, top and sides are glued [2]. This proved easiest for pre-mounting the bits. Then the pieces [1] and [2] are screwed together via 6 screws in the back and four screws from the bottom (the three at bottom you see here are permanently glued to piece [1]). I used particle board hi-low thread screws and some handsoap (helps to keep from snapping screw heads).

- Sounds pretty good. I find there's more defined silences between sounds.
- Highs are clearer, for sure.
- Bass seemed wussy at first. Then I tried it with some electronic music that I know to have bass. No problems there. It's just that it don't sound like railway cars going bump in the night when somebody plays cello anymore.

- I really had fun throwing this together. I am most deeply grateful to Occam and mgalusha and others on this site for being so friendly towards newbies and for getting me exactly where I needed to be. (with minimal shock therapy and financial outlay)

Gordy · « **Reply #375 on:** 23 Oct 2006, 02:01 am »

Sweet Ozone! Love that retro volt meter too, reminds me of JoshK's early version of his UcD amps

JoshK · « **Reply #376 on:** 23 Oct 2006, 01:35 pm »

Fantastic looking! Finally a Felicia that lives up to my wife's name. I love the hardwood look and the meter. Like Gordy says, I used meters on the front of one of my UcD amps and have a couple other projects in the works with meter use. I just like 'em.

ozone_stink · « **Reply #377 on:** 23 Oct 2006, 06:28 pm »

NOTE: I forgot to thank audioferret who got me started on this with his post over on diyAudio

Also, thanks for your feedback guys!!

I'm really happy that I've not insulted your wife's good name!!

I've posted over on DIYHiFi with my silly question about whether it's necessary to modify / improve the voltage regulation in my Rotel RCD-02 now that I'm using a Felicia conditioner.

If I've understood well, local decoupling and bandwidth requirements make it necessary to have good voltage regulation. This is despite the conditioned power. Then the conversation turned into ferrite beads where I wouldn't know what size or type or where to place...so I got a little lost.

Does anybody know if I've understood well?

I'm not sure if I should put this in a new thread or not... On one hand this is related to the Felica conditioner and on the other I'm trying to weasel some good advice on what next to do with my CDP source.

Occam · « **Reply #378 on:** 23 Oct 2006, 09:13 pm »

Hey Matt,

I'm back from Tuscany..... and to answer your question, no, good power conditioning does not obviate the need for good regulators in the fed components. Ideally, good regulation within a component should obviate the need for good powerconditioning. But this is not the best of all possible worlds, and I've yet to encounter a mains powered component with whatever regulation that does not benefit from good power conditioning. If one were to start with a clean slate, one could design components with built in power conditioning prior to the ps. Good luck in finding them.

With regards to the DiyHiFi thread, listen to Jocko, he knows what he is talking about. The comments about ferrites are specific to ps regulation and you'd be best served (IMO) by keeping that discussion over on DiyHiFi.

EDIT - Carlos' comment was also spot on although cryptic. His comment was about the cmc in front of the actual power supply in your cd player which you posted on your diyHiFi thread. Iff'n the dumbass who designed your cd player had actually put the appropriate caps before and after the cmc (which CarlosFM referred to as the 'inductor'), it would have accomplished much (most??) of what the Felicia should provide.

BRN · « **Reply #379 on:** 30 Oct 2006, 08:26 pm »

I'm wondering, can the Felicia balanced powerconditioner useing transformers like the Signal A41-175-36 be used with a low power SET amp that puts out about 2 watts?