[2bigears]

  that 7000.00 streamer is big time. Who needs a collection anymore ? Might be time to dump the STUFF .  But it's hard to let go.  I could use a good transport ,, a dac to match. Seems CD players aren't as good as transports.   

[routlaw]

And you are probably thinking "Can't I just plug the SACD player digital out into something?"

Nope, all you get is the hybrid layer. Only the HDMI out with the correct handshake gets the DSD stream. Cracking the copy protection and ripping is the only way to get those hi-res bits released from their silver coated prison.

This is not totally accurate, at least with the Oppo Players and presumably others that have analog outputs. It is possible to program and setup the Oppo so that DSD can be output via its analog outputs as well as sending a DSD via the HDMI outputs. At some point along the way the DSD signal has to be converted and that can be done either internally via the Oppo externally through a processor.

[WGH]

It is possible to program and setup the Oppo so that DSD can be output via its analog outputs...

Maybe the Oppo BDP-105 has a better DAC and analog circuits than the BDP-103. I own the Oppo BDP-103 and the analog out sounds a lot worse compared to every DAC or processor I have ever owned so I never considered it as a hi-res option. Hi-fi into a soundbar maybe but certainly not what anyone would consider hi-res. The Oppo's Blu-ray HDMI sound is state-of-the-art.

[routlaw]

Maybe the Oppo BDP-105 has a better DAC and analog circuits than the BDP-103. I own the Oppo BDP-103 and the analog out sounds a lot worse compared to every DAC or processor I have ever owned so I never considered it as a hi-res option. Hi-fi into a soundbar maybe but certainly not what anyone would consider hi-res. The Oppo's Blu-ray HDMI sound is state-of-the-art.

Likewise I owned the 103 too, but sold it long ago and bought the 203 once it was introduced. Been far too long to really remember the quality output of the 103 via its analog outputs. However my recollection is it not being as poor as what you describe. There are so many settings in the menus on all of the Oppo outputs, analog, coax, HDMI etc it would be really easy to get tripped on them or overlook something which might provide the results you are getting. The industry has made all of this stuff far and away too complex and getting worse by the year.

It is important to to state if you are outputting via the HDMI outputs you are NOT utilizing the Oppo’s built in DAC chips, rather that is being passed on to the processor or what ever device is on the receiving end of the HDMI signal. Oppo did change the onboard DAC chips from the 103/105 models compared to the 203/205 models but its important to emphasize they are only used via the analog outputs when the conversion is done internally. In theory the 205 model has better DAC chip than the 203 but when Audioholics reviewed both players they found little to no difference with the quality of sound. Others may disagree of course.

[Echolane]

And you are probably thinking "Can't I just plug the SACD player digital out into something?"

Nope, all you get is the hybrid layer. Only the HDMI out with the correct handshake gets the DSD stream. Cracking the copy protection and ripping is the only way to get those hi-res bits released from their silver coated prison.

My head is spinning with possibilities!  First, let me say a big thank you for this terrific information on how to rip my SACD collection. 

But now for a dumb question before I dig into all the details,,.  Suppose I buy a good Oppo, one from the 103 up to the 105D.
  - Can I connect it in to my stereo system via RCA composite cables as though it were a CD player and rip without access to a TV display?? Or, just play SACD discs and get the SACD layer?  Or will I run into the handshake problem you describe and get only the hybrid layer?
  Janet
 

[WGH]

1st - do you have a Blu-ray player? Is it on the list?

2nd - you can use RCA cables into your preamp but you will be listening to a $5 DAC inside the Blu-ray player instead of a $19,500 DAC

3rd - because of copy protection all digital outputs: coax and optical is limited to the hybrid layer. HDMI has the hi-res DSD64, plugging it into a receiver works (if the receiver decodes DSD) but you are still limited to another $5 DAC inside the receiver. And no, you can't hack the HDMI to record, it is encrypted.

4th - the only way to rip a SACD to get DSD64 files is with software like SACDExtractGUI, which is the easiest. It literally took 17 years to get this far.

5th - you need a network connection to a computer from the Blu-ray player

6th - you need to connect the Blu-ray player to a TV to access the menu to find the IP address, write it down (it may change every time you turn off your computer). Turn off the Blu-ray player. Enter the IP address into the SACDExtractGUI computer screen. Plug the thumbdrive that has the correct script for your player into the front USB port (I think Sony and Oppo are different). Turn on the Blu-ray player. It is now connected to SACDExtractGUI program running on the computer.

7th - You don't need an Oppo, that is what I bought to watch movies before streaming was invented. I got lucky my old player is on the list. Any player on the list will work, find the cheapest, new or eBay.

[Echolane]

Got it.  I’ll look for an “el cheapo” Player and go from there.  Thanks again, this exchange has  been super helpful.  Now to do it!

[firedog]

I’ve read about this.  Sounds like a great fix but I won’t be able to play it as DSD, so far as I understand anyway.  That’s because my DAC doesn’t do DSD.  I have a Berkeley Audio DAC Reference Series 2.  As I mentioned, I hesitated to buy it because it doesn’t do DSD, but I bought it used for a fraction of its MSRP.  It was too good a deal to pass up.

That's a great DAC. Just use software that will convert  DSD on the fly to PCM (or convert all the ripped DSD to PCM files and save them that way); it will sound great. Once you do either, I wouldn't worry about it. You will have great sound.

[Echolane]

That's a great DAC. Just use software that will convert  DSD on the fly to PCM (or convert all the ripped DSD to PCM files and save them that way); it will sound great. Once you do either, I wouldn't worry about it. You will have great sound.

Thanks.  I was fortunate to get a really good deal on my DAC  and I won’t part with it for the world.
It is a darn shame to have to convert DSD to PCM though!

[WGH]

Got it.  I’ll look for an “el cheapo” Player and go from there.

It is a darn shame to have to convert DSD to PCM though!

el cheapo is a good plan, you may not like how DSD64 sounds when it is converted down to 176.4 kHz.

Each player has it's own sound. JRiver Media Center has a very slight mid-bass bump, it is very pleasant, sort of like an analog filter. Other music lovers prefer Audirvana. I don't use Roon so don't know what it's sonic signature is.

I have moved to HQPlayer, it is a state-of-the-art player that is absolutely neutral and can be fine tuned to match electronics, speakers, and personal preferences. Needless to say it is also complicated and too impenetrable for the casual music lover. HQPlayer can also be integrated into Roon. I mention HQPlayer because it's 57 resampling filters, dither and noise shapers would allow DSD64 down converted to 176.4 kHz to sound the best possible. I guarantee using HQPlayer to upsample 44.1 kHz to 176.4 kHz will be a revelation. I posted an upsampling primer to explain why.

I did an audio test comparing the same SACD rip (Allison Krause + Union Station - Live) in the original DSD64 then down converted to 352.8 kHz, JRiver's default setting. I preferred the DSD64, which wasn't as bright sounding as the PCM. The algorithms used make a difference. Roon may be better sounding than JRiver plus the Berkekey will sound different than the Holo Audio DAC.



The Roon website says:
"Most DSD content is generated from a DXD master. DXD is PCM at 32bits/384kHz or 32bits/352.8kHz."
Roon settings will have to be adjusted to output 176.4 kHz.


Diving deeper, mojo-audio has an in depth article comparing DSD to PCM

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth
https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/

"... hybrid SACDs which have DSD64 and 16-bit 44.1KHz PCM on the same disk. The DSD64 tracks have over 30 times the resolution of the 16-bit 44.1KHz tracks so that they could make DSD sound better than PCM in comparisons."

"... blind studies they've proved that high-resolution PCM and DSD are statistically indistinguishable from one another. Considering that nearly all DSD recordings were edited, mixed, and mastered in PCM, it is no wonder."

Pure DSD recordings are now available from many music stores, these are recorded and edited using DXD and never use an intermediate PCM conversion. The resulting DSD256 recordings are as close a master tape sound as possible. A friend has a restored reel-to-reel tape machine and played master tapes at our last audio club meet up. It's nice to have a point of reference when fine tuning a stereo.

[stvnharr]

Got it.  I’ll look for an “el cheapo” Player and go from there.  Thanks again, this exchange has  been super helpful.  Now to do it!

You are on your way now!!! MikeyFresh at HiFiHaven is the most helpful person you will ever find and will get you going with sacd ripping once you get ready to do it.
You have lots of options with the DSF files once you get them. Just get them first.

[stvnharr]

Diving deeper, mojo-audio has an in depth article comparing DSD to PCM

DSD vs. PCM: Myth vs. Truth
https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/

This is a good article in what it says, especially some of the technical stuff.
However the author totally orients everything to the popular music mass market. In that market DSD and SACD have been near non-existent since the very early days. The only segment thereof where SACD is existent now is the reissue market of 40-50 year old recordings.

The only segment of the music market where SACD has had a presence is classical music. And even there it is in decline. Yet, one of the largest classical independent labels, BIS of Sweden, has released every recording for the past 10 years as a multichannel SACD. Bis releases 6 recordings every month, more than most labels.
As for DSD recording, there never was much, ever. With the release of Mergings Horus recording system there is the possibility for easier DSD recording. But the classical labels tend to record in DXD with their Horus's instead of DSD. There are exceptions of course.

And the author of the mojo article also seems to belittle the small labels and sellers of DSD recordings. They may be small, but they all have enough business to stay in business.
If one wishes to know about existent DSD recordings, equipment, etc., the nativedsd.com website has pretty good and mostly complete information for reading.

The author also totally neglects to mention the Japanese market. SACD is still strong there. Most of the Japanese player companies still make an sacd player. You can find them in other markets of the world if you look hard. Pioneer and Yamaha have always offered players of good value, and still do.

[FullRangeMan]

I noted at CDJapan site the SACDs reissues albums sell fast.

[WGH]

Check out Cookie Marenco and Blue Coast Records. Cookie has been an advocate of DSD recordings since at least 2012.
https://bluecoastrecords.com/

Cookie Marenco is an American audio engineer, record producer, and composer. She is the founder of OTR Studios and Blue Coast Records and has engineered or produced five Grammy-nominated records and has several gold records.

Stereophile magazine loves her


Recording engineer and producer Cookie Marenco of Blue Coast Records



DSD recordings are alive, growing and doing very well and one reason I bought a DAC that can play native DSD without converting.

DSD-Guide
DSD Music, Information, Equipment, News and Answers
https://dsd-guide.com/

[stvnharr]

Everyone loves Cookie!!!