[genjamon]

Not disclosing and outright lying when asked directly are two different things.  I'm not prepared to call Tom a liar yet.  Clearly, he has to use "cost effective" parts choices to offer the amps at the price point he does.  But just because the parts are cheap, it doesn't mean they aren't decent quality.  And I asked explicitly if they're copper.  He said yes.  But I didn't ask anything about plating processes, specific metallurgy (oxygen free, OCC, etc), or design (e.g. low-mass, use of ferrous screws/washers, etc).  I'm not at all surprised that WBT or ETI could be an improvement, but at a cost.  But that doesn't mean the original parts are crappy brass or something.  It's possible he told the truth, the parts are better than average for cheap audio components, AND that they can be improved on significantly with aftermarket parts of higher quality.

[2bigears]

  one can only think better parts,, better sound. But to give a % gain to $$ spent is always back of mind. He offers better binders on the monos ? Why I wonder ? 

[genjamon]

I asked him about that too.  He said he offers them because people asked for them, not necessarily because he thought they were a worthwhile investment.

[2bigears]

  in the big old grand scheme of things. This amp is under a grand. Should we lower our expectations right off the bat. Like a dating site first date ?  Haha.  Coffee shop only 1st date. Good lord to spend a couple hundred on supper for a loonie is so dissapointing.  🎅🏻

[Tyson]

Not disclosing and outright lying when asked directly are two different things.  I'm not prepared to call Tom a liar yet.  Clearly, he has to use "cost effective" parts choices to offer the amps at the price point he does.  But just because the parts are cheap, it doesn't mean they aren't decent quality.  And I asked explicitly if they're copper.  He said yes.  But I didn't ask anything about plating processes, specific metallurgy (oxygen free, OCC, etc), or design (e.g. low-mass, use of ferrous screws/washers, etc).  I'm not at all surprised that WBT or ETI could be an improvement, but at a cost.  But that doesn't mean the original parts are crappy brass or something.  It's possible he told the truth, the parts are better than average for cheap audio components, AND that they can be improved on significantly with aftermarket parts of higher quality.

The bolded part is, IME, correct.  I've modded a ton of gear and the MiniGan certainly uses parts (binding posts, RCA connectors, wiring) that is a step above the really cheap stuff used in mass market gear.  So, good enough for the vast majority of people. 

You see this same type of 'good enough' approach with tube amps.  Many manufacturers build out these incredible amps with amazing circuits and build quality, and then they ship them with cheap tubes like JJ or EH.  Why not send them out with top of the line Psvane or NOS tubes?  Because it would add a LOT to the cost of the amp and most people are perfectly happy with the stock tubes.

As a manufacturer, you have to find a happy medium between improved quality and rapidly escalating expenses.  The MiniGan did a good job at that.  But still, it can be improved.

[2bigears]

  correct. It's all about making that last buck. A truck with positraction is 15 bucks more in parts and a wayyyyyy better truck if you get into snow and mud. But auto boys made it an option. It's about that very last dollar. Capitalism at its finest. 

[genjamon]

Tom was responsive enough to one person's request to install WBT connectors by special order; then he went ahead and made it an option for others.  I'd be surprised if he wouldn't be receptive to a conversation with anyone interested in an upgrade about his upgrading your amp after your purchase.  Not saying he'd definitely do it, but I bet he'd at least consider it.  And since it's only a five pound amp, you're not going to be out a lot in shipping.  Just a thought..., and if he's willing, it might be a way of preserving warranty coverage while getting an upgrade.  I might attempt to go down that road myself after I've given the amp enough time to get through the ups and downs of break-in. 

[2bigears]

  to wire in better terminations, doesn't seem that tough. If you have a few basic tools and a hot iron. ? 
         Connections are very important to be sure. But this mod would be a couple hundred bucks. Value over Cost is always the question. A Sunday afternoon project ,,  but one must hear the fully broken in amp playing first.  1st things 1st. 

[Mr. Big]

Not disclosing and outright lying when asked directly are two different things.  I'm not prepared to call Tom a liar yet.  Clearly, he has to use "cost effective" parts choices to offer the amps at the price point he does.  But just because the parts are cheap, it doesn't mean they aren't decent quality.  And I asked explicitly if they're copper.  He said yes.  But I didn't ask anything about plating processes, specific metallurgy (oxygen free, OCC, etc), or design (e.g. low-mass, use of ferrous screws/washers, etc).  I'm not at all surprised that WBT or ETI could be an improvement, but at a cost.  But that doesn't mean the original parts are crappy brass or something.  It's possible he told the truth, the parts are better than average for cheap audio components, AND that they can be improved on significantly with aftermarket parts of higher quality.

He charges what he feels he can make an honest profit for his amps and of course parts he uses help him achieve this.  Nothing wrong with that. You get what you pay for, there's no free lunch, no world beaters if they were they charge for that honor and quality and sound. Yes, things are overbuilt at times to justify the asking price, but in 40 years in this hobby, you have to pay x-amount of dollars to get a really good sound which was the case in the late 70s, 80s, and onward. Dynaco Stereo 70's were wonderful amps and affordable, but no Threshold 400A or 800A or ARC amps, Mark Levinson ML2, and so on. But you could build them as a kit on the cheap which is why it was the biggest-selling amp of all time. But sonics could be beaten if you paid more for a better amp if you could afford it which today's high-end would-be chump change. Smile! My Jaw dropped the 1st time I heard the ML ML2's and ML7 preamp, I never heard the sound where you were sitting in the studio listen in to the session, I was hooked from that day on, I rarely hear any systems today mega dollars that give me that feeling. It was their goal back then to make gear sound as close to real instruments as possible, some would tape say a live sax then play it right back on the gear they were designing and see how close it came to what they just heard. and ultra-specs be dammed, they used their ears for voicing and their years of skills to know what to change in the circuit and parts to get to that goal much like a good chief does with using the right spices. Look at the Opus 3 label on their early recordings that sound so real, they used Dynaco stereo 70's amps in their production, the reason was they gave music weight/soul very musical and is my need when I listen to a music system, clarity, fast does not impress me if you lose the body weight and soul of the music. The sound of my 1st exposure to how good the recording could be reproduced as stayed with me to this day. 

[catluck]

Wondering if the comments calling the MiniGans speaker binding posts "trash" or "junk" aren't a bit overblown.  From Tom Rost yesterday,

"The binding posts on the amp are gold plated copper... just like the WBT binding posts and probably most others. the WBT's are very nice and well engineered but just way too expensive. They're also large and require us machine the cases to fit them. As far as sonic qualities, there just isn't any difference between ours and the WBT, although most everyone will disagree with me on this. I do understand why some would want them as they are nice, but most just don't realize just how expensive they are and are plastic binding posts. They also probably have a little better isolation, but this is not something that is enough difference to effect performance in the amplifiers."

Characterizing the posts as "trash" seems uncalled for, but whatever.  Having done many, many mods of equipment over the last 40 years, some have been beneficial, some not, and some actually degraded the sound.  All mods utilized higher priced parts. Using higher priced parts is meaningless, i.e., does NOT necessarily result in better audible performance. I have, too many times over the decades, sat with audiophile friends who, after modding some piece of kit called me to come and listen.  In many instances the "improvements," if any, were so minimal and/or unreliably audible, that I came away thinking audiophiles are deeply prone to confirmation bias. For myself, I find the MiniGan's speaker posts wholly adequate to the task. For those who don't Class D offers the upgrade to WBT.

[catluck]

Double Standard? Note that the Sapphire M3's appear to use WBT-0703Cu Nextgen Economy Binding Posts which retail for $45/each (https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/wbt-binding-posts/wbt-0703cu-nextgen-economy-binding-post-red/).  These, in a $5K speaker.  WBT manufactures posts costing upwards of $130/each.  Has anybody replaced their M3 posts?  If not, why not?  By the logic expressed in these posts, one could assume that the more expensive (higher quality?) posts would (should?) yield a more musical presentation. But I haven't seen a single comment even suggesting that the M3 posts should be upgraded for improved sound.  It could be that the posts are deemed "sufficient to the task," at least in Clayton's experience.

[Early B.]

Characterizing the posts as "trash" seems uncalled for, but whatever.  Having done many, many mods of equipment over the last 40 years, some have been beneficial, some not, and some actually degraded the sound.  All mods utilized higher priced parts. Using higher priced parts is meaningless, i.e., does NOT necessarily result in better audible performance. I have, too many times over the decades, sat with audiophile friends who, after modding some piece of kit called me to come and listen.  In many instances the "improvements," if any, were so minimal and/or unreliably audible, that I came away thinking audiophiles are deeply prone to confirmation bias. For myself, I find the MiniGan's speaker posts wholly adequate to the task. For those who don't Class D offers the upgrade to WBT.

With regard to the mods, I'll take Tyson's word for it. He did more than switch out the stock binding posts.

On confirmation bias -- within the context of audio is a meaningless term. If I make a modification and I think it improved the sound, does it matter if I was influenced by my own expectations? Heck, it would be senseless to perform mods if you didn't believe they would improve the sound. 

[catluck]

Early B - to be clear I wouldn't, and didn't, argue that Tyson didn't "hear" what he claims to have heard, i.e., an improvement in sound quality upon switching binding posts, and ok, hook-up wire.  No person can comment, with knowledge, on another person's experience. That's obvious.

Regarding confirmation bias, I argue that it most certainly is relevant and operative. Your post confirms as much albeit you conclude "who cares"?  I'm with you on that point.  If a person believes that the mod they performed improved the sound, well, then it did at least for that person. I happen to be in your camp rather than the objectivist camp, i.e., a mod must be empirically demonstrably better.  Or blind testing must reliably confirm the improvement. As I've argued previously, I don't care as much about objective measurements as I do about subjective evaluation.  We're aligned there. That doesn't mean, however, that confirmation bias isn't present and/or operative. Do you believe, for instance, that the WBT posts Tyson replaced would demonstrate superior electrical properties sufficient to improve the musical presentation?  Perhaps , but I'm skeptical. Certainly WBT hasn't posted anything objective, i.e., empirical data, supporting such a claim.   But, no matter. If Tyson feels the WBT posts improve the sound, that's all that matters to me.  I'm no different in that respect. But, again, that doesn't diminish the presence of confirmation bias...

All of this, for speaker binding posts, reduces to Tom's comment that he doesn't hear a difference when using the  WBT posts.  That claim is as legitimate for Tom as Tyson's position that he does hear a difference.  Each is driven by personal motivations - Tom considers manufacturing cost while Tyson sees potential for improvement - and, lo! each hears something different.  The very essence of confirmation bias... among, perhaps other operative issues as well such as aural acuity, etc.  There's a difference between "meaningless" and not "operative" in any event.

[Mr. Big]

Wondering if the comments calling the MiniGans speaker binding posts "trash" or "junk" aren't a bit overblown.  From Tom Rost yesterday,

"The binding posts on the amp are gold plated copper... just like the WBT binding posts and probably most others. the WBT's are very nice and well engineered but just way too expensive. They're also large and require us machine the cases to fit them. As far as sonic qualities, there just isn't any difference between ours and the WBT, although most everyone will disagree with me on this. I do understand why some would want them as they are nice, but most just don't realize just how expensive they are and are plastic binding posts. They also probably have a little better isolation, but this is not something that is enough difference to effect performance in the amplifiers."

Characterizing the posts as "trash" seems uncalled for, but whatever.  Having done many, many mods of equipment over the last 40 years, some have been beneficial, some not, and some actually degraded the sound.  All mods utilized higher priced parts. Using higher priced parts is meaningless, i.e., does NOT necessarily result in better audible performance. I have, too many times over the decades, sat with audiophile friends who, after modding some piece of kit called me to come and listen.  In many instances the "improvements," if any, were so minimal and/or unreliably audible, that I came away thinking audiophiles are deeply prone to confirmation bias. For myself, I find the MiniGan's speaker posts wholly adequate to the task. For those who don't Class D offers the upgrade to WBT.

The thing is when a designer "voices" their gear it is based on the total design of the circuit so if you replace say a carbon film with a dale metal film that does pass the highs much more; well guess what you throw off the sound of that piece of gear because the unit other parts were chosen to work with the Carbon film where the highs were not as pronounced but the parts after that were based on that and would be matched to make the highs proper output for the design, now the dales really push the highs and the parts after that also, so what happens you now have a sound of pushed highs and lower treble and upper mids, so the dales while a better part throws off the balance of the unit, and some might like that change better but after doing it back in the day, I only thought it sounded bright like turning the treble up on a receiver. To do it right I have to change out the parts on the whole circuit boards and that be like building a new piece of gear even then, based on the circuit design the outcome would be a crap shoot. 

Changing wiring and binding posts can give you some improvements while safely keeping the product you purchased sounding balanced and most of all retaining its full value. Modification can sound good but when getting it back you have a different sound and you better like it, it is the same as if you went and brought home say a new preamp, at least if you did not like it you could take it back, with a mod you are stuck with it, and good luck selling it. 

I came to the conclusion from doing that building up the power supply made more difference while leaving all the rest in the signal path alone, power supplies make a unit which is why amps that really weigh a lot is due to the massive power supplies. Preamps also bigger the power supply the better they sound. CD players also, which is why say an Esoteric can have up to 4 transformers in their power supplies and weight up to 85 lbs.

[genjamon]

1) Tyson didn't use the WBT, but rather the ETI binding posts.  ETI's are low-mass designs, while I'm not sure the WBT are. 

2) Tyson also swapped out the RCA inputs and internal wiring, both low-level and speaker-level.

3) Not sure what Tom uses speaker-wise, or the rest of his system for that matter.  Tyson is using the GR Research Super 7's with ribbon tweeter/mids speakers, and which binding posts, crossovers, etc he has upgraded to the hilt.  Those babies are gonna be extremely transparent to any system change.  They also have a tendency to be a little more on the neutral end of the spectrum, not as warm, so are probably more sensitive to extra "spittle" as I think he put it.

[Tyson]

I feel like people are getting defensive and there's no need for that.  You all have to understand that EVERYTHING that I buy ends up getting modded.  I've used a ton of different wires and connectors and binding posts (and IEC connectors).  Depending on the native sound of the amp/DAC/Preamp/Speaker I use different parts.

Gear is too bright and needs to be relaxed a bit:
ETI copper binding posts and RCA connectors
VH Audio OCC hookup wire

Gear is Neutral but could use higher quality:
WBT copper binding posts/RCAs

Gear is too mellow and could use more liveliness:
ETI silver RCA
Fururtech copper binding posts/RCAs
WBT Silver binding posts/RCAs
Nemak silver hookup wire

So it's not a one size fits all.  Most of my tube gear gets the 'liven things up' parts and most of my SS gear gets the 'mellow things out' parts. 

Also, IMO, there's no reason to just stick with the voicing the manufacturer gave their gear.  If you really like something but maybe it's a bit harsh, make some changes so it mellows out.  Conversely, if you really like something but it's maybe a bit too sleepy or syrupy sounding, liven it up.  For me this is the best way to be able to live with gear long term. 

[Daryl Zero]

So besides this kerfuffle about the quality of parts, how does it sound?

[2bigears]

  well Santa stopped at my mail box today. I'm breaking in the amp now with the balanced connections. I will say the speaker terminals are light duty for sure. But then again I have these Zu cables with those car engine blocks on them. What the heck are those anyway ? Will give it a listen in a few days. 

[Early B.]

I will say the speaker terminals are light duty for sure.

Yeah, I unscrewed the plastic pieces so that the banana plugs would fit better. A bit risky, but a short-term solution until I replace them with some "cheap" binding posts (No ETI's, WBT's or high-end Furutechs!). Maybe some KLEI's. I probably won't go any farther with upgrades. The amp is on my wife's system and only gets used a few times a year, so I'll get it done eventually. I don't expect a sonic improvement. I just want them to function better and look better.  P.S. -- I mod most of my gear, too, so this was inevitable. 

[Tyson]

So besides this kerfuffle about the quality of parts, how does it sound?

Still burning in.  The new parts are going to add another 70 hours or so if further burn in. 

Even without full burn in I can say that the imaging, soundstage and sheer levels of resolution are impressive.