Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps

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jnschneyer

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #340 on: 3 Nov 2022, 05:33 pm »
The main advantage of tubes is whatever one likes about them, be it the sound of a specific tube, tube rolling, the looks, nostalgia, or all of the above.  The main advantage of any piece of gear, of anything, is whatever one likes about it; one person can’t quantify or determine or state categorically what it is that gives or will give another pleasure.  The class D/GanFet vs tubes debate is moot, as there is no way to quantify people’s tastes and preferences.  Any salesperson of any product has too much skin in the game to be taken entirely at his or her word.  Not that there aren’t ethical salespeople, ee cummings notwithstanding, but psychology dictates the need of the salesperson to sell is going to color his or her perspective.  The same is true for people having made a recent switch (no fanatic like a convert).  I’m not trying to be insulting, but bias is real, and saying this is going to supplant or is superior to that in something as nebulous and changeable as audio preference seems beside the point and misleading.  I get being excited about a new discovery, especially if one is convinced it really is better, but I don’t think peoples’ best interest are served when the tone starts swelling into hype territory.  Time will be the determiner of the future of GanFet and tubes and of everything, not people’s initial enthusiasms.  I like tubes.  I like solid state.  I’d probably like GanFet.  I like box and open baffle speakers.  I don’t see the need to tout one over the other.  I’m as likely as anyone to gush over something I like - my posts on this site are a testament to that - but one’s preferences are just that, not universal principles or necessary outcomes.   

Regarding a company being small and owner operated, it is a real concern, and Spatial does fall into that category.  It’s a risk I hadn’t contemplated until my X5s went down.  I’m lucky in that I live in the city where they’re built.  Otherwise, who knows how long I’d have been without fully functioning speakers.  I’m not saying that means one shouldn’t do business with newer small companies, but it’s a risk and deserves to be taken into consideration.

I apologize if I offended anyone in this.  That was not my intention, as I very much appreciate how civil everyone on this site is.  I just felt, once the conversation started bending towards oracular pronouncements on the future of an entire class of audio, that some gentle pushback was merited.  So, this is me, gently pushing back.

2bigears

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #341 on: 3 Nov 2022, 05:37 pm »
 :D well I'm close to buying a new amp for sure. Even though we have one huge economic tsunami soon coming.   Has anyone tried VTV D's with the tubes ?  Is this just more parts and smoke and mirrors for more $$ and not that much sonic benefit compared to these little guys ?  I still can't believe I can plug a 5 pound little circuit board in and it sings like a 100 pound old school powerplant sucking amp. I am old and old school,, haha.  And do I need mono's is another question going with these little guys as 2 times the $$ of course. Do monos give you more than just headroom ? Would love an amp with glorious midrange. Looking at the PrimaLuna  EVO 300 but that's another topic. Those things are built well. Can these little D's give the tube kids you get from the big tubes ?  Good lord ,, paradox of choice .. round & round   :duh:

Early B.

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #342 on: 3 Nov 2022, 05:54 pm »
Has anyone tried VTV D's with the tubes ? 

I went through this decision a few months ago when I purchased my dual mono VTV amp -- monos or tubes? I chose monos (no tubes) because I had a tube preamp. The problem is -- there aren't a lot of reviews that compare the two options, and the website doesn't provide enough information to help make a decision. There's a dude on YouTube who reviewed the VTV tube buffer:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2JeHE-bA_Y&t=567s

What would be interesting is to compare the VTV stereo tube version with the non-tubed mono version.

 

Early B.

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #343 on: 3 Nov 2022, 06:12 pm »
I apologize if I offended anyone in this.  That was not my intention, as I very much appreciate how civil everyone on this site is.  I just felt, once the conversation started bending towards oracular pronouncements on the future of an entire class of audio, that some gentle pushback was merited.  So, this is me, gently pushing back.

No need to apologize. This is a fun discussion! 

As many others have said, I think Class D amps have arrived which means more audiophiles will try them out. This thread is a testament to that. Once this happens, there will be fewer purchases of tube amps and traditional (i.e., huge and heavy) amps over the next several years. There will be more innovations in Class D technology in the near future and hopefully, prices will stabilize or decrease as a result. Unless tube prices decrease, tube amps may become less appealing. And the big-ass solid-state Class A or A/B amps no longer have any real sonic advantage over their scrawny Class D competitors. 

Does anyone know if audiogon or some other entity publishes annual data on the sale of audio gear by class type? It would be nice to have actual data instead of us guessing at market trends. 


catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #344 on: 3 Nov 2022, 08:42 pm »
The main advantage of tubes is whatever one likes about them, be it the sound of a specific tube, tube rolling, the looks, nostalgia, or all of the above.  The main advantage of any piece of gear, of anything, is whatever one likes about it; one person can’t quantify or determine or state categorically what it is that gives or will give another pleasure.  The class D/GanFet vs tubes debate is moot, as there is no way to quantify people’s tastes and preferences.  Any salesperson of any product has too much skin in the game to be taken entirely at his or her word.  Not that there aren’t ethical salespeople, ee cummings notwithstanding, but psychology dictates the need of the salesperson to sell is going to color his or her perspective.  The same is true for people having made a recent switch (no fanatic like a convert).  I’m not trying to be insulting, but bias is real, and saying this is going to supplant or is superior to that in something as nebulous and changeable as audio preference seems beside the point and misleading.  I get being excited about a new discovery, especially if one is convinced it really is better, but I don’t think peoples’ best interest are served when the tone starts swelling into hype territory.  Time will be the determiner of the future of GanFet and tubes and of everything, not people’s initial enthusiasms.  I like tubes.  I like solid state.  I’d probably like GanFet.  I like box and open baffle speakers.  I don’t see the need to tout one over the other.  I’m as likely as anyone to gush over something I like - my posts on this site are a testament to that - but one’s preferences are just that, not universal principles or necessary outcomes.   

Regarding a company being small and owner operated, it is a real concern, and Spatial does fall into that category.  It’s a risk I hadn’t contemplated until my X5s went down.  I’m lucky in that I live in the city where they’re built.  Otherwise, who knows how long I’d have been without fully functioning speakers.  I’m not saying that means one shouldn’t do business with newer small companies, but it’s a risk and deserves to be taken into consideration.

I apologize if I offended anyone in this.  That was not my intention, as I very much appreciate how civil everyone on this site is.  I just felt, once the conversation started bending towards oracular pronouncements on the future of an entire class of audio, that some gentle pushback was merited.  So, this is me, gently pushing back.


JN - I appreciate the gentle pushback. But, I note, quizzically, "fanatic," "hype"?  Perhaps no conscious intention to insult - but these are hardly neutral characterizations - one might characterize them as inflammatory.  At a minimum, those words invite comment inasmuch as no specific quote is offered supporting the validity of these terms.  The impetus of this thread, for those paying attention, has always been to persuade folks to TRY the new technology (for the cost of shipping). Period.  Further, as the very first posting in this thread notes, yes, I was biased concerning GanFets. But I was biased against, not in favor of, the technology.  Again, clearly stated in the first posting of this thread. 

Thus, while it's obvious, also as I've noted several times, that musical preferences are subjective, I find comparisons of technology anything but misleading or ill-serving fellow audiophiles' best interests. I've detailed the equipment I own, my time in this pursuit, etc. I've given reasons for every claim I've made in this thread. I think we've seen in these posts not a single criticism of GanFets by those who have actually listened to them. Several here have purchased GanFet amps.  Further, we have at least two designer/manufacturers (Mytek, Atmasphere, and there are others) who seem to now favor GanFets over other technologies even where at least one makes/sells tube gear. 

Not certain why the "salesman bias" discussion inasmuch as no person on this thread has identified himself/herself as an audio salesperson selling GanFets. As previously noted, I have nothing to do with Class D Audio or Premium Audio. Also, I sense a misunderstanding when using the word "debate" concerning the circuit topology comparisons. The issue here is whether one is willing to fairly listen to a new technology for the cost of shipping?  I "tout" GanFets over tubes because for me, and apparently others on this thread, GanFets are sufficiently pleasing to supplant tubes sonically and that's without any consideration of their other astonishing advantages over any other current circuit topology.  If that's a "debate" then so be it. Would you find GanFets superior (however you subjectively evaluate them) to your current gear?  Don't know. What I do know is that if you tried GanFets and didn't find'em superior the solution is easy - return'em.   Just setting the record straight and truly not insulted. Hell, it's just a hobby albeit a passionate one.  If one person, and I think we're already there, finds more listening pleasure with these small, inexpensive, and light revolutionary tools (and that's not hype - if challenged I'm happy to recount why GanFets constitute a revolution in music reproduction) then I've accomplished my goal. 


jnschneyer

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #345 on: 4 Nov 2022, 06:59 pm »

JN - I appreciate the gentle pushback. But, I note, quizzically, "fanatic," "hype"?  Perhaps no conscious intention to insult - but these are hardly neutral characterizations - one might characterize them as inflammatory.  At a minimum, those words invite comment inasmuch as no specific quote is offered supporting the validity of these terms.  The impetus of this thread, for those paying attention, has always been to persuade folks to TRY the new technology (for the cost of shipping). Period.  Further, as the very first posting in this thread notes, yes, I was biased concerning GanFets. But I was biased against, not in favor of, the technology.  Again, clearly stated in the first posting of this thread. 

Thus, while it's obvious, also as I've noted several times, that musical preferences are subjective, I find comparisons of technology anything but misleading or ill-serving fellow audiophiles' best interests. I've detailed the equipment I own, my time in this pursuit, etc. I've given reasons for every claim I've made in this thread. I think we've seen in these posts not a single criticism of GanFets by those who have actually listened to them. Several here have purchased GanFet amps.  Further, we have at least two designer/manufacturers (Mytek, Atmasphere, and there are others) who seem to now favor GanFets over other technologies even where at least one makes/sells tube gear. 

Not certain why the "salesman bias" discussion inasmuch as no person on this thread has identified himself/herself as an audio salesperson selling GanFets. As previously noted, I have nothing to do with Class D Audio or Premium Audio. Also, I sense a misunderstanding when using the word "debate" concerning the circuit topology comparisons. The issue here is whether one is willing to fairly listen to a new technology for the cost of shipping?  I "tout" GanFets over tubes because for me, and apparently others on this thread, GanFets are sufficiently pleasing to supplant tubes sonically and that's without any consideration of their other astonishing advantages over any other current circuit topology.  If that's a "debate" then so be it. Would you find GanFets superior (however you subjectively evaluate them) to your current gear?  Don't know. What I do know is that if you tried GanFets and didn't find'em superior the solution is easy - return'em.   Just setting the record straight and truly not insulted. Hell, it's just a hobby albeit a passionate one.  If one person, and I think we're already there, finds more listening pleasure with these small, inexpensive, and light revolutionary tools (and that's not hype - if challenged I'm happy to recount why GanFets constitute a revolution in music reproduction) then I've accomplished my goal.

Catluck,

First, thanks for the thorough and well-considered reply.  I went back and forth as to whether I should use the terms you pointed out.  I ended up sticking with them because, while there is some hyperbole in them, there is, as with most hyperbole, some truth, much as what I describe as hype regarding the GanFet amps no doubt has some truth in it.  I’ll grant you that hype feels more pejorative than hyperbole, but hype is the child of hyperbole.  Up to now, I stayed out of the discussion because, never having heard a GanFet amp in person, I felt I was in no position to offer an opinion.  I only entered the fray after Atmasphere made the pronouncement that GanFet is likely to replace tubes, and that manufactures of tube amps who don’t recognize this will find themselves behind the eight ball (I’m paraphrasing, as I don’t have the post in front of me).  Atmasphere makes great tube amps and now makes class D GanFet amps and has a literal vested interest in their commercial success.  That doesn’t mean he isn’t absolutely sincere in his love of and belief in his product, but it does mean he has a very different sort of skin in the game than does, say, a user of his products or anyone whose living isn’t dependent on them.  As for the fanatic reference, I meant it partly tongue in cheek, but also seriously, in that many, after discovering something new, whatever it might be, have a tendency to advocate passionately for that thing.  After all, there’s a reason the saying exists.  But, again, that doesn’t mean those people are insincere or even inaccurate, but the sheer degree of praise does cause in someone like me, perhaps cynically, a level of caution almost in direct proportion to the enthusiasm.  The sheer momentum of unqualified approbation, regarding anything, always gives me an Invasion of the Body Snatchers vibe.  This is no doubt as much, if not more, a comment on me as it is on them. 

All of that said, you’re absolutely right (as you know) that in the end all you’ve done is say Hey, I love this, it’s awesome, here’s an opportunity for you to try it, too.  I have no beef with that whatsoever, which why up to recently all I did was read with interest.  As I said earlier, it’s only when the conversation spilled into pronouncements claiming superiority, made by someone with a commercial interest in the success of the product, however sincere he may be, that I felt impelled to raise the specter of bias claiming to be objectivity.  Regarding the technology itself, I have nothing to object to, having heard it only through compressed YouTube videos.  I’ve heard others I respect speak remarkably highly of GanFet technology.  In fact, I almost bought one of Atma-Sphere’s class D amps, but, for no rational reason other than wanting to try them and having liked what I heard, I decided to go with my first tube amp instead.  In the interest of fair play and to satisfy my genuine curiosity, I may give the GanFets a try and, who knows, maybe I’ll be a convert.  Though it seems maybe not entirely ethical to try them if I have no real intention at the outset of buying them.  What do you think?

Anyway, that’s why I decided to speak up and used the language I did.  Was it justified?  I’m not so sure.  I feel like I’m working hard to convince myself, but I think what I’ve mostly done is talk myself into giving the GanFets a try. 

Charles Xavier

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #346 on: 4 Nov 2022, 08:54 pm »
This might be a long shot, but I was thinking about this filling my car up with gas this morning. This has nothing to do with "sound". Do you think manufactures have gotten a heads up from the industry that it's time to go "Green". Electric cars are coming out like never before. These types of amps are 90% more efficient. Tv's are more efficient than years ago. So maybe the audio world is taken a turn that way. I'm on board I think the Gan Fets sound great.

catluck

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #347 on: 5 Nov 2022, 12:35 pm »
JN - really appreciate your thoughts. I get where you're coming from.  Ultimately, I think I value this civil and exploratory discussion as much as the actual subject matter.  So many have posted sincere and thoughtful comments, just like yours.  Thank you

genjamon

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #348 on: 5 Nov 2022, 01:12 pm »
This might be a long shot, but I was thinking about this filling my car up with gas this morning. This has nothing to do with "sound". Do you think manufactures have gotten a heads up from the industry that it's time to go "Green". Electric cars are coming out like never before. These types of amps are 90% more efficient. Tv's are more efficient than years ago. So maybe the audio world is taken a turn that way. I'm on board I think the Gan Fets sound great.

What heads up would the “industry” have given? And what “industry” are you talking about. Manufacturers are the definition of “the industry” for me. Unless maybe you’re talking about journalists and reviewers?

No, I think shifting sales, competitive pressures, cost of goods, and gross and net margins - you know, standard business factors - would be behind any shift in manufacturers.  And customers are attracted because the sound is getting better and better for cheaper as Class D tech improves. I agree it’s just a matter of time before it’s just absolutely better on all fronts, and different flavors of input circuits is what largely differentiates house sounds.

Remember, the shift to electric vehicles underway now came about because Tesla came along and proved electric vehicles could not just compete with ICE vehicles, but actually outperform them in most ways except a few. And market demand followed, putting competitive pressure on the rest of the industry who were forced to respond or risk becoming irrelevant in 10-15 years.

Early B.

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #349 on: 5 Nov 2022, 02:53 pm »
It's been said a hundred times already, but the size and weight of Class D is the prevailing factor, IMO, now that Class D sound is on par with A & A/B. A few years ago, there was a thread on AC that asked the age of members and you guys are really old!!! :lol: There can now be an inverse relationship between age and amp weight.

Also keep in mind that for the past decade or so, the trend in audio has been to go small. It wasn't long ago when music servers were the size of desktop computers, but now some of them are pocket-sized with better sound quality.   

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #350 on: 5 Nov 2022, 03:22 pm »
Question;

Does the GaNFet amps, that are the subject of this thread, produce really nice decay with cymbals, pianos, etc.?  I love traditional jazz and a nice decay is a must have for me. 

Does the GaNFet sound close to or better than the SS class A amps that you’ve heard, as many say class A amps are the pinnacle of the best sound quality.  I know the modern day class A/B amps perform well and probably better than some class A amps, but I’m just asking these questions to those that are currently using the GaNFet amps.

Have you guys heard any other GaNFet class D amps, the new PeachTree GaNFet, for example?  I don’t hear a lot of buzz about the new Peachtree GaNFet amp?  I would assume its all about implementation of the GaNFet technology because I’m not hearing the same praise for other GaNFet amps.

Lastly, have you compared the GaNFet to brands such as; Gryphon, Luxman, or D’Agostino?  They are expensive amps and I’m curious how the GanFetz compare to these manufacturers?

I really want to hear from the GaNFet owners as they are qualifying this new amp to be as good as the amps that they’ve had or currently have. 

Thanks!

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #351 on: 5 Nov 2022, 03:52 pm »
Quote
Does the GaNFet amps, that are the subject of this thread, produce really nice decay with cymbals, pianos, etc.?  I love traditional jazz and a nice decay is a must have for me.

In my system, yes. I posted comments earlier in the thread comparing the Class D Audio MiniGaN 5 monoblocks to the two previous amps in my system, including my Pass Labs XA25 which is Class A: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183099.msg1925860#msg1925860

The MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks reproduce decay and transients and harmonics better than any amp I have had in my system. Using balanced XLR connections from DAC to pre-amp to amp provides a silent background and resolves very deeply into the recording.

I listened extensively to Jazz and piano recordings in evaluating the MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks in my system, and I've never heard things sound so good. In a couple of recordings where I thought there was a faint background hiss, the MiniGaN 5s revealed a brush on a snare deep in the mix. They have been a revelation.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #352 on: 5 Nov 2022, 04:04 pm »
In my system, yes. I posted comments earlier in the thread comparing the Class D Audio MiniGaN 5 monoblocks to the two previous amps in my system, including my Pass Labs XA25 which is Class A: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183099.msg1925860#msg1925860

The MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks reproduce decay and transients and harmonics better than any amp I have had in my system. Using balanced XLR connections from DAC to pre-amp to amp provides a silent background and resolves very deeply into the recording.

I listened extensively to Jazz and piano recordings in evaluating the MiniGaN 5 Monoblocks in my system, and I've never heard things sound so good. In a couple of recordings where I thought there was a faint background hiss, the MiniGaN 5s revealed a brush on a snare deep in the mix. They have been a revelation.
Wow, that’s impressive and encouraging for me.  I have the Holo Audio Serene KTE preamp on order, to pair with my Spring 3 KTE DAC.  I will be ordering the X4s, so I can’t audition any amps yet.  Thanks so much for your impressions!

newzooreview

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #353 on: 5 Nov 2022, 04:31 pm »
Quote
Remember, the shift to electric vehicles underway now came about because Tesla came along and proved electric vehicles could not just compete with ICE vehicles, but actually outperform them in most ways except a few. And market demand followed, putting competitive pressure on the rest of the industry who were forced to respond or risk becoming irrelevant in 10-15 years.

Although electric cars had been around for 100 years, in the 1990s GM demonstrated the high market demand and technical viability of modern electric cars with the EV1. The problem was that they had to use NiMh batteries in the EV1. Lithium batteries were not yet available at the cost and energy density needed for a useful range. https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4849

By the time Tesla Motors was founded in 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning, battery energy density and major government investments were in hand or on the near horizon. Tesla developed no new battery technology. They buy all of their batteries from Panasonic. They also received a half a billion dollar federal loan (which GM did not) to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, to tweak existing electric motor designs for their needs (since GM was not sharing its patents and trade secrets).

With Tesla's numerous false claims now exposed (e.g., fully autonomous driving, rapid battery pack exchanges, fleets of self-driving taxis, an electric semi truck ready for 2018 delivery etc.), Tesla is likely to go the way of Studebaker as the entire industry is showing that EVs are not rocket science: they are readily made with proven technologies and Tesla has no innovation to keep it competitive unless one counts viral marketing of vaporware. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO9yw9QThzU

genjamon

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #354 on: 5 Nov 2022, 05:01 pm »
I wasn’t saying Tesla invented anything. But what they proved was that if you put the latest tech together in a sleek design, today’s electric cars don’t require any real sacrifice for the typical driver, and they can be cool too. 

And I’m not saying the traditional companies can’t catch up to Tesla either. But Tesla was a threat unless the others didn’t step up to electrics in a big way. That’s all I’m saying. GM did try the EV-1, but then they mothballed it and appeared to give up on electrics until Tesla came along.

 And that’s where the analogy to the Class A-A/B and Class D amp dynamic lies here.

Tomy2Tone

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #355 on: 5 Nov 2022, 05:16 pm »
It's been said a hundred times already, but the size and weight of Class D is the prevailing factor, IMO, now that Class D sound is on par with A & A/B. A few years ago, there was a thread on AC that asked the age of members and you guys are really old!!! :lol: There can now be an inverse relationship between age and amp weight.

Also keep in mind that for the past decade or so, the trend in audio has been to go small. It wasn't long ago when music servers were the size of desktop computers, but now some of them are pocket-sized with better sound quality.

Maybe class d manufacturers can add extra weight inside the chassis and a heater of sorts to give the class a guys a sense of heft and worth to their amps. Kinda like how some electric vehicles in years past used to add the sense of a transmission shifting gears even though there wasn’t one. 😄

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #356 on: 5 Nov 2022, 06:29 pm »
Maybe class d manufacturers can add extra weight inside the chassis and a heater of sorts to give the class a guys a sense of heft and worth to their amps. Kinda like how some electric vehicles in years past used to add the sense of a transmission shifting gears even though there wasn’t one. 😄
Hilarious!!

NoahH

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #357 on: 6 Nov 2022, 02:40 am »
Has anyone who listened to miniwatts also tried the Orchards? Apologies if it was in the thread - I checked but could not find it.

morganc

Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #358 on: 6 Nov 2022, 02:49 am »
Has anyone who listened to miniwatts also tried the Orchards? Apologies if it was in the thread - I checked but could not find it.

I'm on the Orchard tour that should get here in the next month or two I'm guessing.

lazbisme

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Re: Sapphire M3's - Gallium Nitride Amps
« Reply #359 on: 6 Nov 2022, 03:27 am »
catluck tried the Orchards and chose the miniGaN monoblocks