[Marbles]

After living for two weeks with my old turntable in my ref system, several things are clear to me.

The first thing is that overall the music has a more relaxing quality than my digital rig.

I enjoy listening to my classic rock MUCH more on the Turntable than I ever did on digital.  In fact I thought that I had changed and that was the reason I like jazz and blues now.  It turns out that I like classic rock just as much as I used to on analog.

I am enjoying the music more than when I listen to digital.

With CD's, I was listening to what the system was doing, and not enjoying the music.  It's just the oposite with analog.

To be sure records need more care.  I bought a $50 record cleaning kit called Spin Clean.

There are pops and clicks and the noise floor is higher than with CD's.

I had to buy a phono pre, and now I am upgrading to a Teres TT.

I will get it at the Midwest Audiofest it looks like.

Anyway, my transport is getting modded again (first modded by Dan Wright) by Audiengr of Empirical Audio, so I will still play CD's, but thought you guys should know the direction I'm going.

While I don't care if this turns into a Vinyl vs CD type thread as I listen to both, it is clear to me that FOR ME analog is more enjoyable.

[jackman]

I agree with you!  I picked up some audiophile records recently and have yet to hear a CD that can come close in sound quality.  Also, my Van Halen 1 (original album) is totally rocking on the TT.  SRV and Jimi are also in heavy rotation.  I love rock music on vinyl!

J

[F-100]

Just curious, where do you guys get your vinyl? I mean new one, not a used one.  I thought they had stopped manufacturing them many many moon ago.

[Xi-Trum]

I am enjoying the music more than when I listen to digital.
...
There are pops and clicks and the noise floor is higher than with CD's.

A particular tune suddenly comes to my head...

"... I can get no <pop> <pop>... sa--tis--fac <pop> tion <pop>."  

Whose tune is it anyway?  

[Marbles]

I am enjoying the music more than when I listen to digital.
...
There are pops and clicks and the noise floor is higher than with CD's.

A particular tune suddenly comes to my head...

"... I can get no <pop> <pop>... sa--tis--fac <pop> tion <pop>."  

Whose tune is it anyway?  

You can't be serious.....   Rolling st <pop> ones  

[Marbles]

F-100, I don't buy new, just very nice used, but Elusivedisc.com always is emailing me about new vinyl releases.

[nathanm]

Vinyl playback from a technical standpoint has so many things working against it that it's a miracle anyone even bothers anymore, but for some reason it does sound 'right'.  I know for me a there's also also a bit of nostalgia at work, combined with the fact that the music in my record collection is usually older material.  (cause old music is always better than new music! Heh!)  About the only thing that gets my fur up about vinyl is the tracking distortion.  I never know for certain if my system is causing it or merely playing back what someone else's system did to the grooves.

And let's face it, exotic hifi turntables look WAY cooler than CD players!

[Marbles]

I agree with you!  I picked up some audiophile records recently and have yet to hear a CD that can come close in sound quality.  Also, my Van Halen 1 (original album) is totally rocking on the TT.  SRV and Jimi are also in heavy rotation.  I love rock music on vinyl!

J

I won't say they sound better or worse on vinyl, but to me it is a different listening experience.  It is much more relaxing and I can enjoy the music more.  I"ve listened to only a few CD's since getting the TT up and going and on most of them they now have an edge to the music that gets on my nerves, wheras the sound of the TT is more "rounded" without the edge.

I can't wait to see what difference a "good" rig will do.  As always YMMV.

BTW, one reason to not go vinyl is to save money, you will not!  Also from time to time I look for the remote to fast forward a song, then realize I need to get off my ass and do it the old fashion way

[JoshK]

Welcome Rob!

Analog is super cool    but actually I think it is a give and take thing.  You need to spend more time with the medium, which isn't bad for us audiophiles since it is our hobbby.  It is much harder to set up a TT than a CD player.  Again the audiophile thing.  However, not all vinyl pressings are better than their CD counterparts.  Many newer albs are much preferred to my tastes than the vinyl pressings.  Smashing Pumpkins Siamese Dream sounds like crap on vinyl for instance.

Which level of the Teres are you going for Rob?  Did you see the pictures of the new 265 yet?

[Marbles]

Josh, I've seen the 265.  I wanted to get the 150 as that is the best value, but I had an interesting conversation with Chris Brady today.

As you can read on the Teres website, the photo of the 265 is of a prototype.  The reason for that is the way they made that original platter it got "out of round".  They are now making them a little different.  Anyway it is off to get put back in round and it has had some reinforcement added to it.  Even out of round CB said it sounded better than anything else he had ever heard.

Anyway if the platter comes back and after a period of time it seems it will stay in round, it is mine

I cannot afford to get that platter AND the cocobolo base.  He had a baltic birch base that they had covered in cocobolo wood that should match up  visually VERY well that is more reasonably priced.  He stated it sounds somewhere between the regular cocobolo base and a baltic birch base.

I still have to determine what cartridge and arm I will get, but at this point, I can't afford to get a better arm than the Exprisimo RB-250.

Any ideas on cartridges to match this arm? (can't afford the Shelter 501)  

For those going to the Lima show, this TT or actually one like it will be setup in the Bolder room.

[JoshK]

What is your price range for the cart? I went with a Dynavector 20x.  The shelter is about $700 I think right?  The 20x was about $375 I think, can't remember exactly. Other good carts to investigate are the Denon carts which are said to probably be the best value in carts.  You can always start with a relatively inexpensive grado cart and then when you decide what you like or don't like about it then the vinyl asylum can help steer you from there.  This is what a lot of vinyl addict do because some of the grado's are so widely known and it is virtually impossible to demo carts.

[roopaudio]

Marbles,

Part of the problem with the latest and greatest CD players is the problem of the parameters they're trying to improve - S/N ratio, noise floor, and x oversampling.  While having a 120dB S/N ratio looks phoenomenal on paper, as does 24 bits, the problem when listening is that the 'black' of the background shouldn't be so black.  There's too much empty space between each digital sample - so every 1/44,000 of a second transition is not smooth.  This results in emphasizing each sample, versus a focus on the continuity of the music.  Music can't ever be looked at the way these engineers are looking - it makes me wonder if they go home with their player and actually sit down and listen to music.  

Music has no meaning if it's only an instant - the mood, the pathos from the music comes from the entirety of listening over some sort of time period.  Perfect timing is the crux of improving playback of music from a digital source - there's no time smear in analog tapes or vinyl.  There's no resampling, or 32 bit 9000MHz processing.  Just music.  

I've a paper I've been working on for the past year on the very above topic, and I can't wait until it's finally ready to be published this June.  There's a CD player I've been revising and tweaking based on the comparison and evaluation of music, timing, and vinyl.  After the last revision a couple months ago, I had absolutely no qualms about selling my Wadia 861.  Wait - I do miss the metal remote.  

I'd rant and rave some more, but I made the mistake of putting Miles in the CD player before I logged on.  Time to go enjoy.

Rup

[Marbles]

Rup,

That CDP sounds very interesting.....any details you can share?

Josh, thanks, that's the info I was looking for.

[nathanm]

Music has no meaning if it's only an instant - the mood, the pathos from the music comes from the entirety of listening over some sort of time period.  Perfect timing is the crux of improving playback of music from a digital source - there's no time smear in analog tapes or vinyl.  There's no resampling, or 32 bit 9000MHz processing.  Just music.

But there's elevated noise, poorer channel separation, hypersensitivity to dust and other containinants, EQing and re-EQing of the signal, sensitivity to minute vibration, myriad turntable and tonearm adjustments, wearing out of the medium...all sorts of stuff that lowers or alters the fidelity of the original.

Personally I think vinyl has less fidelity than digital, but the thing is that we LIKE the sound of less fidelity!  It is objectively a worse performer, but subjectively enjoyable.  Much like vacuum tubes. Kind of odd really.

[Carlman]

 Music can't ever be looked at the way these engineers are looking - it makes me wonder if they go home with their player and actually sit down and listen to music.  

Rup

I think the engineer's goals were to create a medium that best reproduced the music as it was recorded... and worked specifically not to change it from the recording session to the actual CD.  That's why there was so much hype about DDD, DAD, and AAD recordings a while back.  Give the engineer's a break.  They did the best they could with the technology available and budget requirements.  

I like the sound of good vinyl AND I like the sound of good CD's.  I've heard really bad recordings on both.  I've heard signifigantly more bad records than bad CD's, though.  It wasn't always that the recording was bad but, all the noise, warps, and stuff Nathan mentioned ruined the experience for me.  I'm on an endless search for good sounding vinyl.  It's hard to find for me... Especially if you like late 80's to mid 90's music.  

Glad you're getting deep into it, Marbles.  It's almost as if vinyl is a hobby within a hobby these days.

-Carl

[Tyson]

I've heard very good vinyl and very good digital on the same system using the same recordings.  While the vinyl did some things way better than digital, the digital playback did other things that the vinyl didn't.  Once you get to a certain level of digital, I think preference starts to be a bigger factor in which sound you prefer.

[WorldWind]

Welcome to the groves

[jcoat007]

I love vinyl.

My wife hates it.  

The last time I was in The Virgin Megastore, I walked out $300.00 lighter in the wallet, but 20 lbs heavier in the vinyl collection.  

Oh, what an addiction it is.  

[ehider]

I totally agree with Marbles here. My quest to get my digital to "sound right" has been nothing more than trying to get it to sound like analog, period!  

As the years of upgrading and modding by digital has gone by (8 different players in addition to 4 different D/A converters) I felt like I was getting very close to analog (and surpassing it in many ways). Then recently I went to a customer's house and heard his state of the art $19,000 analog rig, ARGH!   It's even gotten better, damn, damn, damn, damn, damn .

  One day when I get wise and follow Marble's lead back into analog.

BTW: Don't even THINK about hearing a state of the art analog set-up if you can't afford it  It's torture and before you know it you'll be thinking of all kinds of reasons to take a second mortgage on your house. Does anybody know a good loan agent

[roopaudio]

But there's elevated noise, poorer channel separation, hypersensitivity to dust and other containinants, EQing and re-EQing of the signal, sensitivity to minute vibration

If you think CD's don't have EQing and reEQing, you're wrong.  No D/A chip outputs to 2.0V without some sort of Op-amp in the output stage - most manufacturers choose to use the op-amp built into the D/A chip, so you don't see it.  But the op-amp is definitely there.  Additionally, with all of these oversampling players, the digital filters, followed by analog filters, are multiple levels of EQing as well.  And, jitter is induced by physical vibrations as well as the power supply for each part of the CD Player, so vibration sensitivity problems exist in the digital world as well.  The more you oversample, the larger the effect of vibration -> jitter.

Marbles - There isn't much as to specifications I can disclose at this time.  All I can say is that I do hopefully plan to bring the player to market, but I have not set a time frame because I don't want to rush myself on the final version.  In terms of design, there's no other player on the market that's similar in impletation of parts or circuitry.  The design is going to be zero oversampling, with an implementation that I think is extremely innovative (yes, still room for innovation in the world of red book CD player design).  It will never catch on to the mainstream electronics Best Buy world, because the implementation requires quite a few expensive parts.  There's a reason the industry shifted to oversampling, and it wasn't for sound quality.  A quality zero-oversampling DAC cost $25each when purchased in rails - a quality 8x oversample DAC can be had for under $4each.

Rup