[JoshK]

I see your point.  The best CD player I have heard to date used a zero-oversampling DAC.

[nature boy]

Hey Marbles,

Congratulations on your decision to move into vinyl and a Teres (looks like) to boot.  I have fallen in love with my Nottingham, but if my budget would have allowed, defintely would have gone for a Teres.  Several calls and e-mails with Chris Brady were extremely informative.

There is a poster on Audiogon in the vinyl section TWL who knows the Teres inside and out.  I think his recomendations on tonearms and cartridges would be very solid.  Might consider a post in the forum section.

I am thoroughly enjoying my modifed Rega RB300 tonearm and Dynavector 10X4 mk II combination.  The 10X4mkII runs $325 retail and 20X $525 (I think).  Extremely dynamic and musical.  Not the last word in eliminating record surface noise, but does this pretty well.

The only downside of being a vinylholic is my obsession with building my record collection.  I may have to spring for another Target cube shelf special soon, as I am running out of space.  If you are a Pink Floyd fan, do yourself a favor and pick up the UK pressing of Pulse - a four album live set.  The music and sound is incredible.

Regards,

Nature Boy, basking in the coming of Spring!

[Mathew_M]

I agree if you can avoid getting into vinyl then don't.  The reason?  It's a crap shot on trying to find good, playable vinyl.  Hell even new stuff from Audiophile labels like Classic records are faulty.  I had to send my 200 gram re-release of Kind of Blue back because it was riddled with ticks and pops on the FIRST PLAY!  I'm on my second copy of Sgt. Pepper's re-lease and it's warped so it's going back.  I have had better experience with some smaller label stuff like old nonsuch recordings and all of the blue note stuff I've heard is excellent.  

When the planet's align vinyl can be bliss.

[Johng316]

A particular tune suddenly comes to my head...

"... I can get no <pop> <pop>... sa--tis--fac <pop> tion <pop>."  

Whose tune is it anyway?  

You can't be serious.....   Rolling st <pop> ones  

Don't forget DEVO!  

I had forgotten how much fun those guys were...  

She sends out an aroma of undefined love
It drips on down like a mist from above
She's just the girl
She's just the girl
The girl you want!

Good luck in vinylla, Marbles!

John G

[House de Kris]

John G must be quoting DEVO lyrics from a CD.  I don't see any ticks or pops.

[audiojerry]

Again, I'm chiming in late, but I have a job, ya know what I mean?

Anyways, some very interesting comments in this thread, and I am grateful again for being able to learn from others in our audiocircle communty (gush, gush, group hug)    

roopaudio, I am very intrigued by your comments about your prototype cdp. Keep in mind that the audiocircle community is a great testing ground for launching a new product. Put me first on the list of auditioners!
    Audio Research shares your philosophy with their statement cd player the CD3, zero oversampling or upsampling, but I never had a chance to audition one.

I think my digital system sounds great, but it just doesn't measure up to my modest analog system. When listening to the same recording in each medium, the digital version is always the loser. Those of you who whine about cracks and pops, you wouldn't even be aware of them when listening a good quality record.

However, finding good quality used vinyl takes lots of work and patience, but the hunt can be a hobby in itself. There are lots of used vinyl sources, but for every 10 used pieces I buy for a buck or two, only one or two are worth keeping.

New vinyl is available in tons of places, even never opened sealed lp's from the 60's and 70's. One of my favorite sources for new vinyl is MusicDirect in Chicago.

And even though digital is supposed to have wider dynamic range, most cd's have far less dynamic range than the great classical recordings from the late 50's to mid 70's.

[ABEX]

I like vinyl myself,but it is such an inconvenience.

The reason I have read that it has a better playback quality is the noise that is created by the stylus running through the grooves.I cannot explain it in expert terms so I hope you get what I am trying to convey.

 

[nathanm]

I like vinyl myself,but it is such an inconvenience.

The reason I have read that it has a better playback quality is the noise that is created by the stylus running through the grooves.I cannot explain it in expert terms so I hope you get what I am trying to convey.

 

That is an interesting thought - surface noise enhancing the playback.  It makes sense because even if you put the stylus in a blank groove it does make a subtle sound.  Perhaps the groove noise adds a subconscious kind of 'ambience' that one's ears finds favorable?  

[ehider]

I've also read threads that state the hypothosis "surface noise" and/or "cartridge phase errors" and/or "mechanical resonances" and/or "pre-amplification circuitry may be falsly enhancing the perception that analog is better sounding. Unfortunately, the majority of those type of arguments seem to come from those who think digital is sonically better (or even "perfect" ) in all respects and analog is flawed by comparison and is just "tricking" our ears with it's mechanical shortcomings.

Here's my argument (and hypothosis) that there's more to it than just noise or phase errors or other "additive flawed mechanical/electrical anomalies that enhance the sound via analog":

  How the hell does the "flawed" analog front end manage to produce a MUCH more defined and MUCH deeper soundstage as compared with digital?

  Why does analog have the EASY ability to sound MUCH more fluid than digital?

  Why does analog have much better decay and ambience around the instruments than digital?

The things I've listed above cannot be readily added to a recording with a "flawed" playback medium IMHO .   In actuality these types of sonic charactarstics can only be LOST, SCREWED UP OR REMOVED!...i.e.  believe it or not digital still is missing (or losing) parts of the music that analog captures in comparison  

[Ernest]

I see your point.  The best CD player I have heard to date used a zero-oversampling DAC.

Josh, what player was it?

Guys, this whole thread is making me depressed.  Here I am trying to find the perfect CD player for my system and now I find out I may never find it.  I've been listening to some highly regarded CD players lately and find none of them are doing what I am looking for.  But I absolutely do not want to get into vinyl.  On the plus side though, trying out different CD players is fun!

[Marbles]

Ernest, it IS a big commitment to go to vinyl, and there is no point in going until you are commited (take that anyway you want )

Let me just paraphrase what someone else said...

Perfect analog is perfect, perfect digital can only aproach perfect analog!

[Oxia]

How the hell does the "flawed" analog front end manage to produce a MUCH more defined and MUCH deeper soundstage as compared with digital?

Why does analog have much better decay and ambience around the instruments than digital?

My theory on this is that the record's surface acts as a diaphram that can pick up vibrations in it's surrounding environment. I remember making tapes of records back when I was a teenager (many moons ago...) and after playing back the tapes I was suprised to hear that the recording picked up faint traces of a conversation that was happening within the room while the record was playing. Now think what happens when you have a record playing at moderate to loud volume. The air within the room is compressed and rarified by your loudspeakers, and this energy may exert enough pressure on the surface of the record to produce vibrations that are sympathetic to the rythm of the music, albiet slightly delayed. Although low in level, these vibrations may still be picked up by the stylus, and I believe that this can add a very subtle "reverb" effect to the signal, which may subjectively sound like enhanced soundstage depth, extended decay on reverb trails, "bloom" on leading edges of instruments, additional "air" and shimmer around strings and cymbals, extra body on woodwinds, and myraid other effects.

[Rob Babcock]

I like good analog sound:  I just don't like the sound of LPs.

[nathanm]

I agree with Oxia's theory.  Acoustic feedback seems entirely possible.  You could test it by recording the output of the turntable first without the speakers playing and secondly with them playing and compare the two.  I'm sure the louder the speakers are the bigger the effect.  Makes me wonder though, if acoustic feedback is beneficial then we shouldn't be designing 300lb.  deadened turntables but rather resonant ones! Heh!

Rob also makes a great point; ideally we should be listening to 15-30ips analog tape, not vinyl!  Well, assuming the album wasn't recorded digitally to begin with.  I mean, tape is where it all comes from.  Vinyl is just a 3rd generation copy! Heh!  

I think cassette would be better if the speed went up.  Not that I expect this to happen of course.  I missed out on the in-home reel to reel action of the 70s I guess.

[Psychicanimal]

Hey Nathan,

I'm sure you can find a good Elcassette deck in eBay...

[WorldWind]

I think cassette would be better if the speed went up.  Not that I expect this to happen of course.  I missed out on the in-home reel to reel action of the 70s I guess.

This is the way I listen to alot of my music.  One advantage of being old I guess. Most of my collection of 600 or so LP's have been lovingly transcribed to 15ips tape and the vinyl only played a few times.

[Marbles]

Josh, I've seen the 265.  I wanted to get the 150 as that is the best value, but I had an interesting conversation with Chris Brady today.

As you can read on the Teres website, the photo of the 265 is of a prototype.  The reason for that is the way they made that original platter it got "out of round".  They are now making them a little different.  Anyway it is off to get put back in round and it has had some reinforcement added to it.  Even out of round CB said it sounded better than anything else he had ever heard.

Anyway if the platter comes back and after a period of time it seems it will stay in round, it is mine

I cannot afford to get that platter AND the cocobolo base.  He had a baltic birch base that they had covered in cocobolo wood that should match up  visually VERY well that is more reasonably priced.  He stated it sounds somewhere between the regular cocobolo base and a baltic birch base.

I still have to determine what cartridge and arm I will get, but at this point, I can't afford to get a better arm than the Exprisimo RB-250.

Any ideas on cartridges to match this arm? (can't afford the Shelter 501)  

For those going to the Lima show, this TT or actually one like it will be setup in the Bolder room.

The prototype platter could not be fixed  

I'm getting the 245 in cocobolo.

Klaus is selling me a newly rebuilt Symphonic Line RG-8 (modified VDH Grasshopper) and I'm getting an SME IV tone arm.

should look like this:


It looks like Chris Brady will be bring the table, Klaus will bring the cartridge and I will hopefully be able to bring the arm to Lima so we can listen to this setup in the Bolder/Teres room.
Should be a blast

[Oz_Audio]

I have just finished getting my Linn LP12 back to playing condition.  Ittok LVII arm and a new Denon DL160.  I finished building Hugh Deans AKSA phono pre in my GK1, AKSA 55 and TLb speakers with Linkwitz Peerless Phoenix sub.

When listening to CD, I normally only play individual tracks that I like, when I listen to old LP's, I am fixed to the chair until the side is finished and I have to change it.  The music is far more engaging and "Musical".

Last night I put on JJ Cale's Troubadour, I only wanted to listen to "Hey Baby" and "Cocaine", but I ended up listening to both sides, just sensational stuff!

Of all my old albums, the only badly recorded ones are all of U2's and Born to Run, they all have a closed in sound.  Not enjoyable, CD's of these are the same.

Oz

[ehider]

Oxia and Nathanm;

I seriously applaud you guys for coming up with a logical theoretical reason that may explain why the turntable playback medium may be adding some sort of acoustic colorations/anomalies that were not supposed to be introduced into the playback chain in the first place. Unfortunately, this explanation still does NOT explain how a great turntable set-up will give you a MORE DEFINED or a CLEARER soundstage presence than even in the best cost no object digital. IMHO an acoustic-mechanical feedback will potentially give you a deeper sound field, but it will NOT sound more defined or clearer due to this sort of additive coloration effect.

  With the above aforementioned points being said, I still have to proclaim that a great turntable set-up will somehow preserve or capture both fluidity, decay and soundstage spatial cues BETTER AND MORE ACCURATELY than ANY digital front end currently available (perhaps there are losses in the cd itself that are not in the record?).

  I seriously wish the above sonic advantages in record playback were not the case (I HATE the hassles involved with vinyl playback ), but unfortunately I have been proven wrong regarding digital being the best at everything again and again in head to head comparisons with analog (with $50k+ systems mind you!).

  The good news is that the fluidity/soundstage/decay issues with digital have become much closer to analog in the last couple of years with a couple select digital choices (typically 24 bit dacs that use a receiver chip with high immunities to jitter and have top notch power supplies, output gain sections and careful filtering - typically only available from a couple mod guys, NOT the high end digital companies). These sort of top notch digital front ends have the edge with many more sonic strengths overall than in any sort of turntable, period! (such as bass impact, dynamic contrasts, low end definition, stable imaging, warble, ultra frequency capture on both ends of the frequency spectrum and especially noise!).

Then again, I WANT the absolute top notch fluidity with the best deep and clear soundstaging and harmonic decay that I can only can get from ultra high end analog!     damn, damn, damn!

[mgalusha]

I'm getting the 245 in cocobolo.

Klaus is selling me a newly rebuilt Symphonic Line RG-8 (modified VDH Grasshopper) and I'm getting an SME IV tone arm.

should look like this:


It looks like Chris Brady will be bring the table, Klaus will bring the cartridge and I will hopefully be able to bring the arm to Lima so we can listen to this setup in the Bolder/Teres room.
Should be a blast

I think you will be very happy. When I heard Chris's table, I was blown away. One of those moments when the song ends and all you can say is Wow. I have started stashing away the $$ so I can pick one up.  I will likely go for a 160.

Really looking forward to the trip to Lima.

Mike