[nc42acc]

I hope this is what he has been trying to convey. I can get behind this for sure. There are no absolutes in this audio “HOBBY”.

I think I get what Goryu is saying and I agree 100%.  Amps do sound different, there is no disputing that for me.  The thing is, what sounds best for you doesn’t necessarily sound best for me and while amp “a” may sound better to me than amp “b”, if I move them into different rooms, or connect them to different systems, that opinion may change.  There are no absolute answers, therefor it’s a little silly to ask on a forum what’s best because it’s dependent on rooms, systems, listener preferences and even type of music played.

I’ve got multiple systems set up in my house and depending on the room and components set up, I might prefer the Decware, or the Quicksilver or something else.  Heck, I can even make my little Brio sound the best in a certain room with a certain set of components and certain music.

[nc42acc]

Goryu no need to get upset. We all enjoy this hobby equally as well without bringing a persons IQ into the conversation.

Glad to see there is indeed intelligent life on this planet. Thank you.

[goryu]

Goryu no need to get upset. We all enjoy this hobby equally as well without bringing a persons IQ into the conversation.

Not upset. And I never mentioned IQ. There are many kinds of intelligence.

[richidoo]

you are oblivious.

Unnecessary and unwise

[nc42acc]

So back to the original subject of the thread.

[goryu]

Unnecessary and unwise

You took my comment out of context.

[nc42acc]

Goryu it’s all good. Audiophiles are a passionate group of individuals.

You took my comment out of context.

[richidoo]

Rich is this the cliff notes version of Goryu argument?

I hope so.

I understand the subjective /objective argument. And have indulged in objectivist thoughts on occasion. I have amps with lower distortion than the ones I use and love. My speakers are blasphemous MTTM with 14" ctc@3k xo. I hope I still get into hifi heaven.

I know that I pay for ghe gear to do a certain job servicing my brain. So I am mostly concerned with how well the machine performs that job. I have found through experience that my brain itself is the better judge of how well it is served by audio system than an intermediate judge in form of an inanimate machine which is then interpreted by someone elses brain, the result edited for commercial benefit to the judges business then read and interpretted by my brain and filtered by my preexisting biases.

I try new things, I buy what I like. I have plenty of opportunities to hear new things but I only care about those which allow me to enjoy listening to music more. I also want my wife to like it and [for it to] look decent and fit in my budget. I think I'm not alone in holding these values.

[nc42acc]

I think Greg, the OP, posted and left the building. I would like to hear others subjective opinions on what they hear on their systems when switching between the different Class D amps. I think I read somewhere that the Class D topology is sensitive to the load, speaker, it is driving. Would this be the reason you read wide swinging opinions on how Class D sounds? 

[Tyson]

goryu, your opinion might get a more welcome reception around here if you didn’t present it in such a jerk-like manner.  Sometimes the problem is not the message but is the messenger.  Whenever you post it comes off as haughty and dismissive.  Is that your intent?

[goryu]

I hope so.

I understand the subjective /objective argument.

Here's the funny thing: I haven't been making a subjective/objective argument. I have been making an appeal to logic which has been mischaracterized repeatedly as an argument for basing choice solely on objective performance, to wit: subjective opinions are not facts and are therefore neither right nor wrong. Further, they can have no certain meaning from observer to observer and thus trying to base any decisions on the subjective opinions of others is a fool's errand.

On the other hand, amplifiers are by definition a device that adds gain to an input signal, nothing more, nothing less. Measurements, being objective, are number/facts that can be debated, argued, etc. Without measurements, engineers would not be able to design amplifiers. We also know that there are psychological limits to human hearing. When we are comparing the measurements between 2 amplifiers, we can make certain suppositions and inferences based on the results of the measurements. What we can't do is make subjective claims based on measurements, i.e., what sounds "better".

[goryu]

goryu, your opinion might get a more welcome reception around here if you didn’t present it in such a jerk-like manner.  Sometimes the problem is not the message but is the messenger.  Whenever you post it comes off as haughty and dismissive.  Is that your intent?

You mean like this:

"It doesn’t matter how it sounds it only matters how it measures donchaknow?  /snark

 "


You might try taking some of your own advice

[nc42acc]

[goryu]

I think Greg, the OP, posted and left the building. I would like to hear others subjective opinions on what they hear on their systems when switching between the different Class D amps. I think I read somewhere that the Class D topology is sensitive to the load, speaker, it is driving. Would this be the reason you read wide swinging opinions on how Class D sounds?

On the contrary, most modern class d amps take feedback from after the output filter and thus are basically load independent. Early class d amps like Tripath (and the new GaN flavor of the month class d amps from certain vendors) do not take feedback from after the output filter and thus have load variant frequency response. Subjective reviews were all over the place for Tripath which is no surprise.

Ncore and Purifi have ruler flat frequency response with varying load. Their objective performance is near the limits of the measuring equipment. The new nilai class d amp announced recently by Hypex is said to have further improvements giving it even better measured performance. For those looking for a wire with gain, we are getting close.

[sledwards]

Wait! Is this really a dead horse? Prove it.

[Tyson]

Is the horse measurably dead?

[Tyson]

You mean like this:

"It doesn’t matter how it sounds it only matters how it measures donchaknow?  /snark

 "


You might try taking some of your own advice

You’re right I could be more polite- I apologize.

Ok, now your turn.

[goryu]

You’re right I could be more polite- I apologize.

Ok, now your turn.

Apology accepted, and my apologies if offense was taken.

[WGH]

A wise sage once wrote: "The purpose of an amplifier is to amplify, ideally, without adding anything to the signal but gain."

But what if an amplifier removes information? How would we know? Very few people including professional reviewers have a point of reference.

I think Ncore amps remove information based on what I have heard on many different systems during our Tucson Summer Ncore Tour. Attendees agreed, but what do we know? I do know only one member in the Tucson Audiophile Group uses a Class D amp, that's with the power hungry HHR Exotics TLS-1 speakers . It's a good point to remember as the OP auditions amps.

PS Audio probably thought the same thing because the Stellar M1200 has a class A vacuum tube input stage. Does the vacuum tube add color? Probably, but the amp sounds closer to music. Note the Stellar M1200 uses the latest Ice Edge Class D technology. The lower priced Stellar 700 uses the standard Class D ICE module.
https://www.psaudio.com/product-category/amplifiers/



Regarding the point of reference, I can think of two reviewers (although there are probably more) that can accurately state whether a piece of audio gear is colored: J. Gordon Holt (RIP) and John Atkinson. Both have recorded music and use their recordings as a reference. Everyone else is just guessing, we all end up picking what we like and afford.

Stereophile has a test CD with recordings by Holt and Atkinson. The recordings alone won't let us determine if our system is neutral, but when they are referenced in reviews we can get a general idea.
https://www.discogs.com/release/4249211-Various-Stereophile-Test-CD

An example is in Stereophile's 2022 Recommended Components:
"JA [John Atkinson] was equally impressed by the transparency and neutrality of the [HoloAudio] May, though he found that the excellent soundstage depth and sense of musical "drive" in NOS mode had to be set against this mode's tendency to make pianos sound too "clangy." Piano in OS DSD mode remained clean and closer to the true sound of the instrument, he decided." ¹



Audiophiles who rely on measurements too much remind me of Julian Hirsch's reviews in Stereo Review. My eyes start rolling up and round and round whenever anyone talks about low distortion numbers, been there, done that. Even in 1970 harmonic and I.M. distortion is below .01% on almost everything measured. The entire Stereo Review back catalog is available for free, the reviews are a blast to read, the advertisements are even better.
https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/HiFI-Stereo-Review.htm


Frank Van Alstine has a more realistic view about measurements and more importantly what we can't measure.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100776.msg1029884#msg1029884

"Probably the first important improvement was going from the original Hitachi power mos-fet output devices to Exicon devices.  This change was forced upon us as the Hitachi devices went out of production.  The only circuit changes necessary were an increase in the value of the gate resistors from 100 ohm to 220 ohm to insure high frequency stability.  The musical differences were obvious, not only in our hybrid amplifiers, but in our solid state amplifiers too.  The most notable audible effect was a sense of "sparkle" and life to the high end previously missing.  That and a feeling of overall clarity too, with no negative effects at all.  The necessary changes in gate resistor values told us the Exicons were faster devices, but nothing at all different about them we could see up to the three meg limit of my generator and scope."

"...Evidently the Hitachi had some unpublished characteristics that was limiting its value in a music amplification application, again something we cannot verify on the test bench but certainly can hear."

"We did regulated power supplies for each tube heater at the same time.  This provided a major improvement in overall clarity and musical involvement. Again, we could hear it and knew that it was better engineering, but could not measure it within the capabilities of our test equipment."

Read Frank's post, there is a lot more.


¹ https://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2022-edition-digital-processors

[goryu]

A wise sage once wrote: "The purpose of an amplifier is to amplify, ideally, without adding anything to the signal but gain."

But what if an amplifier removes information? How would we know? Very few people including professional reviewers have a point of reference.

it is a simple task to compare input and output signals on an oscilloscope. Similarly, the source and recorded data on a cd or digital music file can be subtracted to show if there are any differences.

A lot of what follows in your post is simply subjective opinion. While you are entitled to your opinion, let's not confuse it with facts.