[fre11111]

1. Foil inductors.
2. Mills resistors.
3. Baltic birch plywood cabinets.

Parts quality and better control of cabinet resonance are exactly what GR Research markets as upgrades for other speakers.

Are you saying that Jay is misrepresenting the cost difference for these upgrades? Are you saying that better crossover parts and better cabinets don't improve the sound?

In the New Record Day video, he says of the pair of Encores "I believe it's going to Jay. I think this is the exact set that he is going to review, and I've been burning them in for Danny for the last week."

The NRD video states the cost is "under $1,500" and the GR Research post below states the cost for the multiple parts and cabinet upgrades would be $1700-1800.

It's quite hard to follow. Parts do matter. Parts don't matter. Cabinet materials and damping of resonances matter. It doesn't really matter. The speakers featured by NRD are the ones that Jay received. They aren't the ones Jay received. Jay will be reviewing $2,500 speakers. Jay will be reviewing $1700-1800 speakers.

Neither the speakers that NRD or Jay is reviewing is what people can order assembled on the GR Research website. That much is consistent across the data set.

Hi there,

I hope these information I will give will clear all the confusion you have or creating:

1. I did not purchase the XLS Encores as A kit, bought Tweeters from another person and the Woofers from GR Research.
2. The Baltic Birch Flatpack is sold and purchased from our friend Peter.
3. Some but not all crossover parts were bought from GR Research due to Supply problems the whole world is having (Reason behind this is I wanted to finish the project as soon as possible and not wait)
4. I have totalled 5 vendors and 6 shipping charges while building this speaker which explains my cost being so high.
5. Jay in his video already stated that when bought directly from GR Research the cost will be significantly lower than mine.
6. Jay in his video also mentioned I gave him an option to purchase my Speaker if he wanted (he does not have to). It costs more because of the time and effort just to complete this project.
7. Under normal situation this Speakers will be so much cheaper to build.
8. This is not the same Speaker that our friend Mike Lundy built in Ron's older video. That is an upgraded XLS with some parts different, it also uses MDF base cabinet wrapped in real maple(not veneer).
9. Ron is referring to a built Speaker in the GR Research website.
10. Lastly, the quote of $1000 more is just an exaggeration. I value my time,labor and effort but not to that extent. Even if I was in the Industry for 20 years I am really a Hobbyist at heart. So please do not take that literally.

I hope this answers your questions and you can send me a PM if you have more.

Frederick

[fre11111]

This drives me nuts reading it, has to get real old for the GRR gang.

Glad no one had  to call Scooby-Doo to solve another major audio caper.

DRIVES ME NUTS TOO. I LOVE YOUR SCOOBY REFERENCE 

Thank you for keeping it light.

[VinceT]

DRIVES ME NUTS TOO. I LOVE YOUR SCOOBY REFERENCE 

Thank you for keeping it light.

You were very kind in your willingness to provide the information in order to answer any questions. It just goes to show all you have to do is ask nice if someone wants some clarification versus assuming there is some slight of hand at play. I really enjoy that aspect of Audio Circle.

[fre11111]

Thank you very much.

[newzooreview]

has to get real old for the GRR gang.

Poor, suffering, GR Research. They launch an accusatory viral marketing campaign "calling out" reviewers as incompetent to give valid opinions about their products. In good faith, and despite the vitriol, an established reviewer who has listened to hundreds of hi-fi components goes to the GR Research site and orders a pair of X-LS Encores. He knows he is being manipulated to give their product more visibility, but he goes along with it. He has built a CSS kit and is well familiar with DIY, but he wants to be sure that he gets exactly what GR Research is selling to folks who aren't reviewers. Otherwise, any critical comment from him (if he had any) would be "called out" as invalid because something was different in the pair he's reviewing, not assembled correctly, etc.

So what does he receive? A juiced up set of Encores that are not what is sold when someone goes to GR Research and buys an assembled pair of speakers.

The objective observer is left, again, to simply trust the word of GR Research: that the speakers being reviewed (that cost more than what is available on the GR Research website, that are not an option for people to order through the website) are really just the same as the less expensive model that is actually available for purchase. This is the truculent assertion, and woe to anyone who raises an eyebrow.

Maybe the assertion is true. Maybe not. It's a confidence game. When the item being reviewed is not the item you can purchase, you just have to trust the claim that really there isn't any difference despite the facts (cost, crossover parts, cabinet materials).

Imagine if Pass Labs sent reviewers an amp with a different brand of capacitors and silver/copper alloy wiring not used in the amp they sell through dealers. Would they be immune from any skepticism? Would Stereophile proceed to review something that is not what their readers can purchase under the same product name from their dealers? Would Pass Labs expect that their reputation is not affected by such circumstances?

[VinceT]

Poor, suffering, GR Research. They launch an accusatory viral marketing campaign "calling out" reviewers as incompetent to give valid opinions about their products. In good faith, and despite the vitriol, an established reviewer who has listened to hundreds of hi-fi components goes to the GR Research site and orders a pair of X-LS Encores. He knows he is being manipulated to give their product more visibility, but he goes along with it. He has built a CSS kit and is well familiar with DIY, but he wants to be sure that he gets exactly what GR Research is selling to folks who aren't reviewers. Otherwise, any critical comment from him (if he had any) would be "called out" as invalid because something was different in the pair he's reviewing, not assembled correctly, etc.

So what does he receive? A juiced up set of Encores that are not what is sold when someone goes to GR Research and buys an assembled pair of speakers.

The objective observer is left, again, to simply trust the word of GR Research: that the speakers being reviewed (that cost more than what is available on the GR Research website, that are not an option for people to order through the website) are really just the same as the less expensive model that is actually available for purchase. This is the truculent assertion, and woe to anyone who raises an eyebrow.

Maybe the assertion is true. Maybe not. It's a confidence game. When the item being reviewed is not the item you can purchase, you just have to trust the claim that really there isn't any difference despite the facts (cost, crossover parts, cabinet materials).

Imagine if Pass Labs sent reviewers an amp with a different brand of capacitors and silver/copper alloy wiring not used in the amp they sell through dealers. Would they be immune from any skepticism? Would Stereophile proceed to review something that is not what their readers can purchase under the same product name from their dealers? Would Pass Labs expect that their reputation is not affected by such circumstances?

You didn't even have to ask nicely, and still got the answer to your inquiry. Isn't it wonderful how things work? The audio community can be very friendly and helpful, it doesn't have to be an agenda driven online pissing contest all the time. I understand there is friction with some of the online camps right now and can understand how some of the youtube stuff can rub some the wrong way, but to be fair GR sells parts upgrades for each one of their kits. I don't see the speakersent to Jay as anything over built or what GR would not sell anyone.

[hawkeyejw]

Poor, suffering, GR Research. They launch an accusatory viral marketing campaign "calling out" reviewers as incompetent to give valid opinions about their products. In good faith, and despite the vitriol, an established reviewer who has listened to hundreds of hi-fi components goes to the GR Research site and orders a pair of X-LS Encores. He knows he is being manipulated to give their product more visibility, but he goes along with it. He has built a CSS kit and is well familiar with DIY, but he wants to be sure that he gets exactly what GR Research is selling to folks who aren't reviewers. Otherwise, any critical comment from him (if he had any) would be "called out" as invalid because something was different in the pair he's reviewing, not assembled correctly, etc.

So what does he receive? A juiced up set of Encores that are not what is sold when someone goes to GR Research and buys an assembled pair of speakers.

The objective observer is left, again, to simply trust the word of GR Research: that the speakers being reviewed (that cost more than what is available on the GR Research website, that are not an option for people to order through the website) are really just the same as the less expensive model that is actually available for purchase. This is the truculent assertion, and woe to anyone who raises an eyebrow.

Maybe the assertion is true. Maybe not. It's a confidence game. When the item being reviewed is not the item you can purchase, you just have to trust the claim that really there isn't any difference despite the facts (cost, crossover parts, cabinet materials).

Imagine if Pass Labs sent reviewers an amp with a different brand of capacitors and silver/copper alloy wiring not used in the amp they sell through dealers. Would they be immune from any skepticism? Would Stereophile proceed to review something that is not what their readers can purchase under the same product name from their dealers? Would Pass Labs expect that their reputation is not affected by such circumstances?

Everything isn’t a giant conspiracy. GR is a DIY first brand and someone volunteered to build a set of X-LS Encores and send them to Jay. The crossover uses similar parts in quality to what you can buy from GR directly, including some that actually were bought from them directly. It’s not that complicated.

[Tyson]

Poor, suffering, GR Research. They launch an accusatory viral marketing campaign "calling out" reviewers as incompetent to give valid opinions about their products. In good faith, and despite the vitriol, an established reviewer who has listened to hundreds of hi-fi components goes to the GR Research site and orders a pair of X-LS Encores. He knows he is being manipulated to give their product more visibility, but he goes along with it. He has built a CSS kit and is well familiar with DIY, but he wants to be sure that he gets exactly what GR Research is selling to folks who aren't reviewers. Otherwise, any critical comment from him (if he had any) would be "called out" as invalid because something was different in the pair he's reviewing, not assembled correctly, etc.

So what does he receive? A juiced up set of Encores that are not what is sold when someone goes to GR Research and buys an assembled pair of speakers.

The objective observer is left, again, to simply trust the word of GR Research: that the speakers being reviewed (that cost more than what is available on the GR Research website, that are not an option for people to order through the website) are really just the same as the less expensive model that is actually available for purchase. This is the truculent assertion, and woe to anyone who raises an eyebrow.

Maybe the assertion is true. Maybe not. It's a confidence game. When the item being reviewed is not the item you can purchase, you just have to trust the claim that really there isn't any difference despite the facts (cost, crossover parts, cabinet materials).

Imagine if Pass Labs sent reviewers an amp with a different brand of capacitors and silver/copper alloy wiring not used in the amp they sell through dealers. Would they be immune from any skepticism? Would Stereophile proceed to review something that is not what their readers can purchase under the same product name from their dealers? Would Pass Labs expect that their reputation is not affected by such circumstances?

I should point out that GR Research is primarily DIY and you can build them however you want.  Comparing them to Pass is inapt.  Comparing GR Research to First Watt is much more on point.

If you order a First Watt kit, well you get to assemble it with any parts you desire.  Sure, there's standard parts you can order, but IME one of the best aspects of the whole DIY approach is that YOU get to decide what level of parts you want.  And then you can use that to tailor the piece to your own preferences. 

Its exactly the same with GR Research.  There's a kit with standard parts you can order and put it together.  Or, you can build it with any other parts you desire.

This is really not a hard concept.  Although I suspect you are being deliberately obtuse.

[newzooreview]

9. Ron is referring to a built Speaker in the GR Research website.

I'm not the one creating confusion.

Ron (e.g., the company known as New Record Day) posted a video of the exact speakers that were then shipped to Jay's iyagi Youtube channel for review. These are the speakers that, apparently, you built. They are not speakers that can be configured and purchased via the GR Research website (as admitted by GR Research in this discussion).

I respect your work. My concern is about the blind trust that must be given to GR Research that the speaker being reviewed, despite the differences, is identical in performance to what can be ordered from the website. I don't know one way or another whether that is the case, but the value and utility of the review is nullified because it comes down to just having faith in the manufacturer.

GR Research could send out a set of Encores identical to what a customer would receive when ordering an assembled pair from their website, and the concern would be gone.

[newzooreview]

Everything isn’t a giant conspiracy. GR is a DIY first brand and someone volunteered to build a set of X-LS Encores and send them to Jay. The crossover uses similar parts in quality to what you can buy from GR directly, including some that actually were bought from them directly. It’s not that complicated.

The idea of a conspiracy is not germane. The question is simply the value of a review when the reviewed speakers differ from what is available for purchase.

GR Research sells fully assembled speakers (multiple models) and that is what is being reviewed. Jay's iyagi did not assemble the speakers. The idea was that Jay's iyagi Youtube channel would go to the GR Research website and buy an assembled pair of speakers so that the review would unequivocally correlate to what anyone would receive ordering an assembled pari through the website. That did not happen.

[Early B.]

NZR is beating a dead horse, but he ain't wrong. Stock speakers should be sent to reviewers. That's not debatable. At the very least, Jay should have provided details on the crossover upgrades, but he didn't know what they were. The point has been made, so let's move on...

Jay said he was gonna confirm the copper content in the tube connectors. I don't believe GR Research manufactures the tube connectors, so if they're not 100% copper, will GR Research get flamed for that?

[Hobbsmeerkat]

If Jay had ordered a fully assembled pair, like he claimed he did in his video response to Danny some months ago. (he didn't, but I digress) he would have gotten exactly what we normally offer.

But as it should be clear already, he didn't order the kit from us directly. so what's insude is out of our hands..

We also didn't send it to him as some intentionally juiced up model as a review sample that isn't remotely representative of our work.
Again, we didn't build it, Frederick did, he sourced the parts and assembled it.

So I dont know what you're goin on about other than intentionally stirring up trouble, dude.

Should we have just told Jay "Sorry, but you're not getting them" ?

Don't answer that, I'm not going to respond, it's a pointless argument.

[jn316]

NZR is beating a dead horse, but he ain't wrong. Stock speakers should be sent to reviewers. That's not debatable. At the very least, Jay should have provided details on the crossover upgrades, but he didn't know what they were. The point has been made, so let's move on...

Jay said he was gonna confirm the copper content in the tube connectors. I don't believe GR Research manufactures the tube connectors, so if they're not 100% copper, will GR Research get flamed for that?

What's stock with regards to the cabinet material? MDF? What thickness? How about resonance control? Do most go with No-Rez? Poly fill? How much poly fill? Even among the parts, do most just go with basic crossover parts? What percentage of that group is necessary to call it stock?

DIY makes that all a little more complicated, don't you think?

[WGH]

Imagine if Pass Labs sent reviewers an amp with a different brand of capacitors and silver/copper alloy wiring not used in the amp they sell through dealers. Would they be immune from any skepticism? Would Stereophile proceed to review something that is not what their readers can purchase under the same product name from their dealers? Would Pass Labs expect that their reputation is not affected by such circumstances?

All manufacturers do running updates that don't necessarily merit a new model number. The item reviewed might be subtly different that what is currently available.  The Manufacturer's Comments section of Stereophile frequently mentions changes made, sometimes there is a follow up, sometimes not.

Because the X-LS is DIY, I would guess every single pair made is subtly different. The review will still be valid.

Regarding Pass, please pick another manufacturer:
https://renohifi.com/faqhelp.htm

"There are two versions of the X.5 amps (X-150.5, X-250.5, X-350.5, X-600.5, X-1000.5). Amps manufactured before February 2008 are very slightly different than those made after that date. There is an obvious way to tell which version of the amp when you look at it, while sonically the changes are very subtle. The newer and revised X.5 amps have a “signal ground pin” on the rear of the amp, and the earlier models do not have a signal ground pin. Also, the newer version of the X.5 amps received a layout change that some listeners feel offers a slight performance advantage. Any listening improvements as a result of these changes is small and frequently system dependant. Either version of this product represents an excellent sonic investment."

[nlitworld]

Another point on the juiced up xo parts to point out would be the issue NZR brings of ordering on a website. The website can't list out every single possible upgraded part or address different voicing characteristics. If I'm not mistaken, the upgrades to this speaker in question are similar to the old Skiing Ninja mods from years past on the original X-LS. I'd bet my bottom dollar if you called the shop and inquired about a super duper maxed out, ultra awesome , no-holds-barred X-LS they would build out a kit exactly for that. A company's product offerings are not limited to their website. I'm a millennial and even I know that calling this (or any) small business will result in the best customer service when it relates to options for product.

So how about we all go back to enjoying the music and the smirk on Jay's face as he tried not getting excited on the camera when talking about the speakers. Just my $0.02.

-Lloyd

[VinceT]

[Early B.]

What's stock with regards to the cabinet material? MDF? What thickness? How about resonance control? Do most go with No-Rez? Poly fill? How much poly fill? Even among the parts, do most just go with basic crossover parts? What percentage of that group is necessary to call it stock?

DIY makes that all a little more complicated, don't you think?

No. These speakers can be ordered from GR Research fully assembled. No one expects reviewers to build speakers. 

[VinceT]

No. These speakers can be ordered from GR Research fully assembled. No one expects reviewers to build speakers.

With all do respect, isn't this a very recent possibility? Like within the last few months you can order a fully assembled Encore without contacting a builder like Mike Lundy, Frederick, or Peter? And tweeters are now just coming on that have been back ordered for a very long time. I am just saying parts availability with tweeters and crossover parts, with covid and the issue with the container ships etc. I think we need to be mindful of those things as well regarding this circumstance.

Should we have just told Jay "Sorry, but you're not getting them" ?

Apparently so 

[Kaiju2189]

We could just listen to music and enjoy what we enjoy. Got some Damien Rice cruising on my modded Spatial Audios. Modded amps and upgraded pre amp.  Doesn’t matter if everyone thinks modding stuff makes a difference….. I’m having a blast and this sounds amazing to me!

[newzooreview]

If Jay had ordered a fully assembled pair, like he claimed he did in his video response to Danny some months ago. (he didn't, but I digress) he would have gotten exactly what we normally offer.

But as it should be clear already, he didn't order the kit from us directly. so what's insude is out of our hands..

The above has not been clear in the least.

Here is the Jay's iyagi video showing him ordering the speakers from the GR Research website with the upgrades, stating the price of "One thousand four hundred ninety-three dollars."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxlUYfpxNMY&t=2483s

If you are saying that's false then ok, there are conflicting claims here.