Line Force?

emailtim

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #220 on: 18 May 2024, 05:44 pm »
It sure would be nice if it were just about the numbers.

Hi Danny,

They are a strong indicator if we are talking about purity of signal retention (straight copper) versus additive colorations (listening to equipment signatures).

Transducers are the weakest link in today's audio chain. 

I think you have some hands on experience with the newish Purifi drivers, but don't know what your thoughts are on them. 

They appear to have some quality at a steep price and boast low distortion.

Here is a blurb from one of their staffers.

"...  The PTT6.5X is at -80dB (1Amp peak, 1kHz), the new PTT8 is at -90dB and we have prototyped a 6.5 with -100dB.  ..."

Their best transducers (including latest prototypes) fall short of the the rest of the contemporary upstream audio components in a signal chain.  Nowhere near -[240-300]dB or even 130dB.

I would appreciate your honest feedback on all 128-bit and 64-bit up to your favorite DAC, but it would require multi-channels of your favorite DAC to do so. 

Most canned consumer hardware (e.g. DEQX, miniDSP, etc.) do not do this precision of math and are tap limited, thus are not representative of current potential.


NoahH

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #221 on: 18 May 2024, 09:52 pm »
@emailtim - indeed it can be done. I fully believe that some folks who are smart enough and have spent enough time (decades) on it like Theoretica get there. And I would always be delighted to audition new implementations. But the reality is the DSP based gear I have heard has underperformed simplified electronics in controlled spaces. There is a reason that many of the most-belovee DACs are NOS. Ladder DACs dominate many of the rankings.

But *theory does not matter on this*. Trial different approaches and try for yourself. There is no replacement for experience, and trying different approaches is much of the fun of the hobby.

My best suggestion for anyone new is buy used gear that you can sell at a low loss and try different stuff for a long time.

jmimac351

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #222 on: 18 May 2024, 10:14 pm »

My best suggestion for anyone new is buy used gear that you can sell at a low loss and try different stuff for a long time.

BINGO!  I did that with DACs (and preamps) and found out what I wanted to know. That issue, for me, is settled.

Now I play with speakers.



Below is how the preamp / DAC mental gymnastics got settled... but the little "secret" is that little black box, by itself, is almost as good.  I did it because I work hard and could, not because I needed to to be happy. 

Buy gear used.  The only "new" I buy are special speakers / speaker parts... if they can't be bought used.  If you buy good stuff, and buy it right... you haven't actually lost the money - it's just value in a different form to have fun with until it needs to change form... like turning it into track tires.

I will say it's important not to skimp on what kind of cardboard you use for housing a test crossover that you're anxious to hear.  :green:


NoahH

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #223 on: 19 May 2024, 02:00 am »
@jmimac351 - I am also an Ayre guy now.

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #224 on: 21 May 2024, 05:18 pm »
Hi Danny,

They are a strong indicator if we are talking about purity of signal retention (straight copper) versus additive colorations (listening to equipment signatures).

Transducers are the weakest link in today's audio chain. 

I think you have some hands on experience with the newish Purifi drivers, but don't know what your thoughts are on them. 

They appear to have some quality at a steep price and boast low distortion.

Here is a blurb from one of their staffers.

"...  The PTT6.5X is at -80dB (1Amp peak, 1kHz), the new PTT8 is at -90dB and we have prototyped a 6.5 with -100dB.  ..."

Their best transducers (including latest prototypes) fall short of the the rest of the contemporary upstream audio components in a signal chain.  Nowhere near -[240-300]dB or even 130dB.

I have worked with their best 6.5" models. They are well made and do a lot well, but like all things there are compromises especially when trying to build one driver that does everything well.

For instance covering bass ranges well typically means a thicker and stiffer cone (more moving mass), longer X-Max capabilities, and a motor design that will maintain linearity over a long range. All of those things compromise performance higher up in frequency. The high moving mass typically means slow or longer settling times. So a woofer playing down low and playing it hard (even cleanly) is going to compromise midrange and higher ranges. This is why we have three way designs.

Our drivers of the same size, have a more limited X-Max, and use a lighter weight cone and have a lighter moving mass. This means they settle faster, sound cleaner, and have a better overall sound. However they will not do as well playing down low.

Quote
I would appreciate your honest feedback on all 128-bit and 64-bit up to your favorite DAC, but it would require multi-channels of your favorite DAC to do so. 

Most canned consumer hardware (e.g. DEQX, miniDSP, etc.) do not do this precision of math and are tap limited, thus are not representative of current potential.

Most of my music catalog involves music that was originally recorded in 16 bit 44.1. So often the best sound can be achieved by a DAC designed to play back at that original level. So higher bit rate DAC's may have little to no advantage. The conversion to analog involves a LOT of other factors. The same is true for higher bit rate DAC's. It isn't about the bit rate, or chip set used. It has MUCH more to do with a LOT of other factors.

And yes the D/A converstion in many of the most known digital filtering divices are fair to poor.

jmimac351

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #225 on: 21 May 2024, 09:40 pm »
I have worked with their best 6.5" models. They are well made and do a lot well, but like all things there are compromises especially when trying to build one driver that does everything well.

For instance covering bass ranges well typically means a thicker and stiffer cone (more moving mass), longer X-Max capabilities, and a motor design that will maintain linearity over a long range. All of those things compromise performance higher up in frequency. The high moving mass typically means slow or longer settling times. So a woofer playing down low and playing it hard (even cleanly) is going to compromise midrange and higher ranges. This is why we have three way designs.

Our drivers of the same size, have a more limited X-Max, and use a lighter weight cone and have a lighter moving mass. This means they settle faster, sound cleaner, and have a better overall sound. However they will not do as well playing down low.


I am experiencing what you are describing right now.  The Scan-Speak 8545 in my Merlin VSM plays low... makes great bass... what you did with the speaker made it sound better than it ever has.  As I think you know, as I have shared with Hobbs... just because I could, I put the M165NQ driver into the VSM. The baffle width between it and the NX-Studio is the same, the efficiency between the drivers is he same, etc.  It was worth a shot to learn something, and boy have I learned something.  The midrange clarity from the M165NQ is superior to the SS 8545 driver; however, the M165NQ does not play as low - just like you referenced in your example.  But the thing is, in the ported enclosure of the VSM (which I have not seen anyone else try / reference M165NQ in a ported application), the bass from the M165NQ is not "weak".  It makes good bass, although not as low as the 8545.

And then the choice between the 2... well, I have / can buy more low end for a speaker via a sub.  I cannot make the 8545 have the midrange clarity of the M165NQ.  For me, I'll take the clarity and add some low end, if needed.  What I am experiencing is why I'm bothering to even do it... to actually hear / experience the difference and more fully understand the "Why?".  There is no doubt in my mind the strategy you're using is the way to go... use the proper tool for the job whether "the job" is midrange or low end.  This little test has also helped me hear and anticipate the clarity I'd experience with the Studio, Otica, or NX-Treme in my room, with my gear.  It's one thing to hear your NX-Treme in your room / your gear, but now the experience has really been driven home.

I'll add this though, I think a lot of people could be very pleased with the M165NQ in a proper, floorstanding, ported enclosure.  Not everyone needs / wants response well into 20Hz.  People have different recipes for what their definition of "Fun" is, and I think by providing different options, but also educating the customer about what the "best" is, people can make choices that are best for their space, budget, goals.  As they learn / experience more, they can move up the line.  I'm going to continue playing with the enclosure of the VSM to get the volume / port alignment exactly to spec Hobbs provided for the M165NQ in ported cabinet (if there is enough space inside the VSM, which I don't know for sure yet). 

Bottom line, I'm experiencing your strategy for why the drivers are designed the way they are, and why the choices are made.  I am also hearing that the M165NQ is an absolutely exceptional driver.  My ears are telling me your entire strategy is right, but you already know that.   :green:

jmimac351

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #226 on: 21 May 2024, 09:52 pm »
@jmimac351 - I am also an Ayre guy now.

Cool!  I am an unapologetic fanboy.  A lot of people go thru this game buying / selling gear, only to still not find happiness / contentment, and never realize why they can't find satisfaction.  I think it's because they buy and sell gear that is essentially very similar in design.  I think the Ayre stuff is designed differently that most other gear in existence, and I happen to love what it does.  Anyone can feel free to reach out to me and I'll tell you what I think I know, and why I use it.  If you haven't already, call Ayre and speak to Jake.  He's a great guy and will lookup the history of whatever you own.

Besides Ayre, I'd like to hear Dartzeel stuff.  They also use the Diamond circuit / no feedback.  I've already spent more on equipment than I ever thought I would, so I doubt that will ever happen.  It's nice when you do and are completely satisfied, and content.  Being content is something I pray for all the time... it's a Blessing when it visits you.

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #227 on: 21 May 2024, 11:37 pm »
Quote
I am experiencing what you are describing right now.  The Scan-Speak 8545 in my Merlin VSM plays low... makes great bass... what you did with the speaker made it sound better than it ever has.  As I think you know, as I have shared with Hobbs... just because I could, I put the M165NQ driver into the VSM. The baffle width between it and the NX-Studio is the same, the efficiency between the drivers is he same, etc.  It was worth a shot to learn something, and boy have I learned something.  The midrange clarity from the M165NQ is superior to the SS 8545 driver; however, the M165NQ does not play as low - just like you referenced in your example.  But the thing is, in the ported enclosure of the VSM (which I have not seen anyone else try / reference M165NQ in a ported application), the bass from the M165NQ is not "weak".  It makes good bass, although not as low as the 8545.

Those two drivers also need very different crossovers. The 8545 needed a third order filter and a notch filter (six parts), while the M165NQ needs only a second order filter (two parts). :-)

JakeJ

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #228 on: 23 May 2024, 07:03 pm »
Those two drivers also need very different crossovers. The 8545 needed a third order filter and a notch filter (six parts), while the M165NQ needs only a second order filter (two parts). :-)

That is likely why the midrange is better, dontcha think?

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #229 on: 23 May 2024, 11:12 pm »
That is likely why the midrange is better, dontcha think?

Nay, it has more to do with the lighter weight paper cone, better motor design, Copper shorting rings, non resonant frame, etc.

i_timotheus

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #230 on: 18 Oct 2025, 07:06 am »
We're cutting 4 sets as we speak.

Don

So do you have plans for the panels or did you copy a flat pack? Because the pictures I have seen lead me to believe you were provided drawings. I'd like to take a crack at cobbling a pair together.

subsonic1050

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #231 on: 14 May 2026, 03:40 am »
I'm interested in building a Line Force based on the Radian LM10N drivers. I'm trying to figure out which tweeter to pair them with, and how to tackle the midbass gap between my OB servo subs and the LM10N's. Does anyone have any opinions between the Radian LT3.2, and the LT2.2? I'd be removing the back cups, obviously.

As far as bridging the low frequency gap - I'm considering mounting some of the GR M-165-NQ drivers in the side wings, or potentially some other 8 or 10" drivers to take care of the ~90-200Hz band. I'd try to mount them fairly far back on the wings? I might even try to run some very narrow bracing between the front baffle and side wing since the front baffle is essentially swiss cheese. I looked into composite materials and came acrross this as a potential material:

https://www.interstateplastics.com/Hdu-Precision-Board-Pblt-48-High-Density-Urethane-Foam-Board-And-Sign-Board-Sheet-PURIFD%7ESH.php?sku=PURIFD+SH&dimensionNote=&vid=xS260514025424-3p&kitoptionpk=11561&qty=1

Much to the chagrine of Danny, I think I might use the dreaded DSP on this build... I've been speaking to Rich Hollis and am really impressed with their DSPNexus 2/8, but have now heard from a few different people that the DAC implementation may not be quite what I'm looking for. Any opinions there will also be of great help. There is no chance I'm going to be able to ship such a huge and fragile speaker to Danny to develop a passive crossover!

Early B.

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #232 on: 14 May 2026, 05:24 pm »
As far as bridging the low frequency gap - I'm considering mounting some of the GR M-165-NQ drivers in the side wings, or potentially some other 8 or 10" drivers to take care of the ~90-200Hz band. I'd try to mount them fairly far back on the wings?

Why wouldn't you run your OB subs up to 200Hz?

Huskerbryce

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #233 on: 14 May 2026, 07:31 pm »
I may be way off base here but I think Danny may have some 8” OB purposed servo subwoofer drivers that can be paired with a rythmik amp.  I was at one time speaking to Brian Ding at Rythmik about pairing some 8” OB subs with my NX-oticas to essentially make them full range without such a large cabinet of 12” OBs.  He talked me out of it and into the 12” OBs.  Perhaps some 8” OBs would be better suited for the 200hz-80hz realm and fill in the low end with a sealed sub in the back of the room???🤷🏼‍♂️  I would talk to Danny about it.

HAL

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #234 on: 14 May 2026, 07:50 pm »
The most recent Rythmik Audio servo amps have a maximum setting of 120Hz for the lowpass.

The best I have measured is 153Hz for the -6dB point for the low pass crossover with the A370.  The new HX series servo amps have the same max LP frequency.

I asked Brian Ding and all the latest amps are the same at 120Hz. 

I have used the GR-Research 12in servo drivers without the servo amps with correct DSP EQ for OB in a demo with Magnepan LRS speakers.  Worked well at a CAF show. 

The 8in servo drivers in OB cabinets would use similar EQ but with a 30Hz cutoff.  They also worked with the older HX300 servo amps that are no longer available.

subsonic1050

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #235 on: 14 May 2026, 09:23 pm »
Yes, this is exactly the problem - my OB subs plate amp only goes to 120Hz. I really wish I could use them to capture that elusive 80Hz as it would make everything considerably easier. I have come up with a cabinet design that will be made from 1" thick baltic birch with a walnut veneer. I'm going to use very narrow bracing between each of the LM10N's and the side wall to stiffen everything up a little, but one of my design choices has to be choosing a tweeter. I can't figure out which would be better - the LT3.2 or LT2.2. If I go with the 3.2, I could fit 18 of them, and with the 2.2 I could fit 20. The advantages of the 2.2 seem to be:

Cost - even with 2 more drivers they are significantly less expensive
Wider frequency range - Definitely play lower than the 3.2 looking at the response, though the suggested crossover point is slightly higher for some reason
Narrower driver - closer center to center with the LM10N, reduction in comb filtering/lobing

Advantages of the 3.2:
More surface area/moving mass
Potentially higher quality drivers? Some google summary said that, though nothing on Radian's site indicates that is the case.

Tyson

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #236 on: 14 May 2026, 11:52 pm »
I wonder if you could modify the amp to bypass the filter completely?

subsonic1050

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #237 on: 15 May 2026, 12:16 am »
Well that's an interesting thought Tyson... I'm going to have to explore that.

Also, here is the beginning concept for what I'm thinking. Almost identical to the existing one, but made for the Radian drivers, and this one is modeled with the LT2.2 tweeters. I get more drivers, a narrower front baffle, closer center to center spacing, potentially a lower crossing point? - but I'm still looking for advice on which tweeter is best if anyone has any suggestions.

This is also modeled with a 12" SB Acoustic woofer in the side wing. It may be slightly too big? And I will probably need to put in a vertical brace. I looked at composites, but plan to build the frame from 25mm baltic birch and veneer it. I also incorporated some relatively shallow braces in the back to help structurally.



Early B.

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #238 on: 15 May 2026, 12:32 am »
Yes, this is exactly the problem - my OB subs plate amp only goes to 120Hz.

This is where I'm a bit confused. When I listen to Danny's OB sub video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HM7_OIgqwM

...at the 7-minute mark, he explains that the crossover dial shouldn't be interpreted on its face value, and he goes on to explain how he crossed over OB subs at 180Hz for line sources with Neo10s with the dial set at 90Hz or 100Hz at the most.   

subsonic1050

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #239 on: 15 May 2026, 01:02 am »
This is where I'm a bit confused. When I listen to Danny's OB sub video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HM7_OIgqwM

...at the 7-minute mark, he explains that the crossover dial shouldn't be interpreted on its face value, and he goes on to explain how he crossed over OB subs at 180Hz for line sources with Neo10s with the dial set at 90Hz or 100Hz at the most.

 :o :o :o Well... first of all. INCREDIBLE memory of Danny's videos to pull that out of a 4 year video. Second, I definitely was thinking of the numbers on the dial as the "crossover point". Thirdly, I spoke with Danny earlier this week and he agreed I'd need something to make up that gap - so now I'm very confused. It would dramatically simplify the whole design if I could eliminate that headache and just hand-off to the subs. It feels like there is still a lot of finer detail between 100-200Hz that might get slightly muddy even with servo subs? I had messaged Jaytor directly and while he was singing their praises, he did say this:

"The only area that I find them slightly lacking is in mid-bass punch - The NEO10s run out of steam around 180 hz or so, and the low-pass filter on the Rythmik amps (at least the ones I'm using) can't be adjusted high enough to completely fill the gap. This is a pretty minor issue, at least for the kinds of music I like to listen to (mostly jazz, folk, classic rock, some electronica). I love vocals (both male and female) and the Line Forces excel here."

So it does seem to be at least a minor issue. Maybe these drivers could fill that gap and also let me cross ever so slightly higher into more comfortable territory for the LM10N's - maybe something like 220Hz. I'm slightly concerned about how huge this driver is and even with bracing if it might overly compromise a structure which is already holier than the pope.