[Danny Richie]

Try our upgrade on the little Sony's and then see how they compare to the Wilsons. 

[yoster]

Hello! New here and wanted to pick your brains.

I picked up a set of SSCS5's on marketplace for a whopping $49.57.  They were in "acceptable" condition according to amazon.. but upon receiving.. they were sealed new.. score!!

Anywho, of course now, I'm looking at these crossover upgrades.  So, here's my question.

I see various ones out there.  I see this one:
https://www.nbdesigns.work/shop/p/modifications-for-sony-ss-cs5-speakers

I also see one by GR Research and a few youtubers.

I'm primarily interested in the URL link above (this is also the one that cheap audio man recommended), but my question is this.  Is the 'methodology' between the various versions all similar?  Is one inherently better than another etc?  I'm inclined to go with the $20 PDF from NBD and do it myself.. any feedback from anyone here who has done that one?

Thank you!!

[jmimac351]

Try our upgrade on the little Sony's and then see how they compare to the Wilsons. 

That's definitely happening!  I'm picking up another pair of speakers tomorrow locally that you and I discussed several days ago via email - "AV123 ELT525T".  I have an idea for that speaker that I want to discuss with you but don't want to muddle this thread with it.  I'll order upgrades for both speakers at the same time.  For others reading this, if it works, I'll share separately as it might work out kinda cool for fixing another speaker that left the factory "broken"... you may have seen it in a video recently. 

ALL - the thing is... although it would be very interesting to ship the Duette and have Danny measure them, make them better, etc. - what do I end up with?  I end up with a better speaker that I still have a pile of money invested into already, that will want even more money with the upgrade. And, maybe that's OK too.  What something costs you mostly is the difference between what you bought it for, and what you sell it for; notwithstanding opportunity costs for that money used eslewhere.  I am not "unhappy" with the Duette speaker, as they currently sit.  "They do a thing."  I bought the Duette because I heard a pair at a friend's house, and I liked them.  They work for my room placement and I'm using them as a reference to compare with other things and keep learning about what I like / want / need.  The fact of the matter is, I probably "need" a pair of NX-Studio paired with subs.

I bought the Sony speakers for this reason: What if I can do even better than the Duette for a fraction of the cost?  Here's what's more... what if you took the upgrade for these Sony speakers, removed the drivers, built upgraded crossovers / installed all of that stuff into a better, custom enclosure with dual 8" servo subs in the base to keep a slender baffle?  Or, the exact same width baffle and a single 12" servo sub mounted in the side?  Things like that could be crazy enough to be spectacular... for less than half the money of a pair of used Duette.

This idea is crazy enough because of the Sony upgrade measurements below:

[Danny Richie]

Anywho, of course now, I'm looking at these crossover upgrades.  So, here's my question.

I see various ones out there.  I see this one:
https://www.nbdesigns.work/shop/p/modifications-for-sony-ss-cs5-speakers

I also see one by GR Research and a few youtubers.

I'm primarily interested in the URL link above (this is also the one that cheap audio man recommended), but my question is this.  Is the 'methodology' between the various versions all similar?  Is one inherently better than another etc?  I'm inclined to go with the $20 PDF from NBD and do it myself.. any feedback from anyone here who has done that one?

Thank you!!

The upgrade mentioned in the link is not at all like what we offer. We designed an upgraded based on the actual response of the drivers and the measurements are the actual measurements of the new design. We reconfigured the range the driver operate in. We readjusted the crossover points, improved the vertical and horizontal off axis response and addressed the resonance in the woofers response by notching it out. Our kit also replaces the binding posts. Ours even includes half of a sheet of No Rez to control cabinet resonances.

The one in the link has response measurements generated in a software package. "These response graphs are generated by XSim"

Not apples and oranges.....

[Danny Richie]

What if I can do even better than the Duette for a fraction of the cost?  Here's what's more... what if you took the upgrade for these Sony speakers, removed the drivers, built upgraded crossovers / installed all of that stuff into a better, custom enclosure with dual 8" servo subs in the base to keep a slender baffle?  Or, the exact same width baffle and a single 12" servo sub mounted in the side?  Things like that could be crazy enough to be spectacular... for less than half the money of a pair of used Duette.

Changing the cabinet would require a redesign of the crossover. A better idea is to leave it as is and add one or more of our servo subs.

[jmimac351]

Changing the cabinet would require a redesign of the crossover. A better idea is to leave it as is and add one or more of our servo subs.

Ok, so can’t turn it into a tower design.  Thank goodness. 😁

I’m curious… is there any benefit to building a better cabinet, same internal volume, same width front baffle, with thicker MDF panels so it’s more rigid than the factory cabinet, or will making ANY cabinet change cause a variance not designed for?  In other words, would a better cabinet actually be “bad”?

[mkrawcz]

The upgrade mentioned in the link is not at all like what we offer. We designed an upgraded based on the actual response of the drivers and the measurements are the actual measurements of the new design. We reconfigured the range the driver operate in. We readjusted the crossover points, improved the vertical and horizontal off axis response and addressed the resonance in the woofers response by notching it out. Our kit also replaces the binding posts. Ours even includes half of a sheet of No Rez to control cabinet resonances.

The one in the link has response measurements generated in a software package. "These response graphs are generated by XSim"

Not apples and oranges.....

I did the Neal upgrade on a pair of Sonys and it’s completely different than Danny’s. It also does not sound remotely as good. It also sounds like there is comb filtering issues with it.

[mkrawcz]

Ok, so can’t turn it into a tower design.  Thank goodness. 😁

I’m curious… is there any benefit to building a better cabinet, same internal volume, same width front baffle, with thicker MDF panels so it’s more rigid than the factory cabinet, or will making ANY cabinet change cause a variance not designed for?  In other words, would a better cabinet actually be “bad”?

I will say that the Sony cabinet is a problem. There is resonance up into the midrange even with the norez. I think a high pass filter will take care of a lot of that.

[yoster]

I did the Neal upgrade on a pair of Sonys and it’s completely different than Danny’s. It also does not sound remotely as good. It also sounds like there is comb filtering issues with it.

Thanks for the reply - that's interesting.

Now my question, and I understand this is awkward given Danny is here in the thread (Hi Danny!  ), so if you want to DM me the response I fully understand.

On Danny's upgrade - the cost is pushing (close-enough) to territory of other good speakers.  Emotiva B2+ as just one example, RP-600M if/when on  sale, the polk r200 which was just on sale for $500, etc.   Does this upgrade (assuming you've been able to compare to other speakers that is) - push these healthily above those?  If not, I'm now inclined to just keep them stock.  Then just use the upgrade money towards future better speakers.  But if it turns them into "you'll need to spend at least $1k to beat them" territory, then it's still worth considering.

I caveat all of this by saying, yes, I understand a lot of this is subjective to the individual.  Things can sound "different" but not "better" etc etc etc blah blah blah lol.  I'm just looking for general thoughts and opinions Thank you!!

[yoster]

The upgrade mentioned in the link is not at all like what we offer. We designed an upgraded based on the actual response of the drivers and the measurements are the actual measurements of the new design. We reconfigured the range the driver operate in. We readjusted the crossover points, improved the vertical and horizontal off axis response and addressed the resonance in the woofers response by notching it out. Our kit also replaces the binding posts. Ours even includes half of a sheet of No Rez to control cabinet resonances.

The one in the link has response measurements generated in a software package. "These response graphs are generated by XSim"

Not apples and oranges.....

Thanks Danny!  I've seen a lot of your videos and it's clear you turn out the highest of quality equipment.  Appreciate your specific information and comparisons there.

[fre11111]

Hello! New here and wanted to pick your brains.

I picked up a set of SSCS5's on marketplace for a whopping $49.57.  They were in "acceptable" condition according to amazon.. but upon receiving.. they were sealed new.. score!!

Anywho, of course now, I'm looking at these crossover upgrades.  So, here's my question.

I see various ones out there.  I see this one:
https://www.nbdesigns.work/shop/p/modifications-for-sony-ss-cs5-speakers

I also see one by GR Research and a few youtubers.

I'm primarily interested in the URL link above (this is also the one that cheap audio man recommended), but my question is this.  Is the 'methodology' between the various versions all similar?  Is one inherently better than another etc?  I'm inclined to go with the $20 PDF from NBD and do it myself.. any feedback from anyone here who has done that one?

Thank you!!

Hi Yoster,

Welcome. The answer is Yes, they are different from each other. I have experience building the Gr Research crossover  and the design you are looking at that was promoted by CHEAPAUDIOMAN. The Gr Research crossover is far superior.

Frederick
frederickdelrosario111@gmail.com

[Danny Richie]

Ok, so can’t turn it into a tower design.  Thank goodness. 😁

I’m curious… is there any benefit to building a better cabinet, same internal volume, same width front baffle, with thicker MDF panels so it’s more rigid than the factory cabinet, or will making ANY cabinet change cause a variance not designed for?  In other words, would a better cabinet actually be “bad”?

Once that little cabinet is lined with No Rez it's fine for the application.

[Danny Richie]

On Danny's upgrade - the cost is pushing (close-enough) to territory of other good speakers.  Emotiva B2+ as just one example, RP-600M if/when on  sale, the polk r200 which was just on sale for $500, etc.   Does this upgrade (assuming you've been able to compare to other speakers that is) - push these healthily above those?  If not, I'm now inclined to just keep them stock.  Then just use the upgrade money towards future better speakers.  But if it turns them into "you'll need to spend at least $1k to beat them" territory, then it's still worth considering.

Those other speakers that you just mentioned need an upgrade as much as the Sony's, and we've designed upgrades for them too.

I would be willing to bet that the upgraded Sony's will give jmimac351's Wilson Duette's a run for their money in all areas except bass extension. And I think those Wilsons were mentioned to have originally sold for $15,695.

[mkrawcz]

Thanks for the reply - that's interesting.

Now my question, and I understand this is awkward given Danny is here in the thread (Hi Danny!  ), so if you want to DM me the response I fully understand.

On Danny's upgrade - the cost is pushing (close-enough) to territory of other good speakers.  Emotiva B2+ as just one example, RP-600M if/when on  sale, the polk r200 which was just on sale for $500, etc.   Does this upgrade (assuming you've been able to compare to other speakers that is) - push these healthily above those?  If not, I'm now inclined to just keep them stock.  Then just use the upgrade money towards future better speakers.  But if it turns them into "you'll need to spend at least $1k to beat them" territory, then it's still worth considering.

I caveat all of this by saying, yes, I understand a lot of this is subjective to the individual.  Things can sound "different" but not "better" etc etc etc blah blah blah lol.  I'm just looking for general thoughts and opinions Thank you!!

Excluding the output capability and the bass response, the upgraded Sonys are better than the XLS Encores and not quite as good as the NX Studios. Just the XLS encores typically compete with $3-5k speakers. The Sonys are really that good. But they need to be in a smaller room.

[tizenketto]

I just finished the SSCS5 upgrade. I never owned or considered Sony speakers before. I listened to those speakers stock for about 1 week so maybe between 35- 40 hours total (driven by Nikko Alpha/Beta II) and my impression was that they are OK stock but somewhat congested in the mid range. Kind of what I expected from cheap Sony speakers ($123 on Amazon). Stock they would not be something I would want to listen to all day but I felt I should get a good baseline before doing the upgrade.

Wow, what a difference the upgrade made. It was like clouds cleared and the sun came out. I have to let you know my listening tastes are jazz, classical, orchestral, and 60's and 70's R&B.  The bass is beautiful; clear and strong (Dave Holland and Ron Carter) and the mid range congestions is gone (lots of Freddie Hubbard and Chet Baker). I am quite impressed. Listening to some Bernard Hermann and Henry Mancini film sound tracks, recorded in 50's and 60's that I played before the conversion sound clearer, more detailed after.

I had to listen to one of my Philly favorites, the Delfonics 'Didn't I Blow your Mind.' I think this should be theme song for these Souped-up Sony's.

Thanks for this Danny! Makes me want to build one of your kits. I was considering building Wayne Parham's four pi speakers but now I am rethinking that.

My wife already told me I don't "need" any more speakers. What does she know?

[jmimac351]

Thanks for the reply - that's interesting.

Now my question, and I understand this is awkward given Danny is here in the thread (Hi Danny!  ), so if you want to DM me the response I fully understand.

On Danny's upgrade - the cost is pushing (close-enough) to territory of other good speakers.  Emotiva B2+ as just one example, RP-600M if/when on  sale, the polk r200 which was just on sale for $500, etc.   Does this upgrade (assuming you've been able to compare to other speakers that is) - push these healthily above those?  If not, I'm now inclined to just keep them stock.  Then just use the upgrade money towards future better speakers.  But if it turns them into "you'll need to spend at least $1k to beat them" territory, then it's still worth considering.

I caveat all of this by saying, yes, I understand a lot of this is subjective to the individual.  Things can sound "different" but not "better" etc etc etc blah blah blah lol.  I'm just looking for general thoughts and opinions Thank you!!

As I understand it, the forum frowns on certain individuals, like Danny, very directly criticizing a competitor's product - even if he's 100% right.  I think you'll find that Danny is going to be very polite on here with respect to that path, but will be happy to discuss with you if you reach out.  Danny is extremely patient with questions and answers with specifics for the "why?".  I have spent a lot of time watching his videos and, the thing is, he doesn't just make claims - he backs it up with data / measurements and explains what's going on.  That has helped me get a feel for how he goes about doing things and it builds a lot of confidence.  For each of the speakers on his site, there is full data showing the measurements.  My view on the "money for what you get" issue is very dramatically evolving.  In fact, you know where I see claims being made without measurement data to back them up?...Most other speaker manufacturer websites.

If you haven't already, watch this video and you'll see where he explains how it's not just a "different crossover design", he's changed the strategy for how the drivers interact with one another in terms of the frequency ranges they cover.  When you look at the number and quality of parts, the crossover costs what it costs.

Danny has mentioned this speaker relative to my Wilson Duette, and I don't think his comments are hyperbole.  I plan to order the upgrade this week and fully expect the result to be much greater than just the sum of the parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upVyx7G5T2U

[Danny Richie]

jmimac351,

Very well said. Thank you.

[jmimac351]

Since the Sony box is not "big", and there are quite a few crossover parts... does it make a substantive difference in measurement if the parts are not in the box? I.e., does the volume displaced by a bunch of crossover parts change things if they are there / not there?

[Danny Richie]

Since the Sony box is not "big", and there are quite a few crossover parts... does it make a substantive difference in measurement if the parts are not in the box? I.e., does the volume displaced by a bunch of crossover parts change things if they are there / not there?

It is not enough to be a problem. How much or how little the amount of insulation you add or don't add will have a greater impact on the volume.

[jmimac351]

So this is the 10 degree off axis measurement of the upgraded Sony that GR Research has posted vs measurement for the Wilson Audio Duette I own.  I overlayed the measurements on each other.  The Wilson measurement was done in an anechoic laboratory in Canada and published in a review on Soundstage.  So, go read Soundstage as they deserve credit for it. 

The Duette measurement was done on-axis, but I have to listen to them way off axis... spread way apart, pointed straight ahead.  I think maybe I see why it wants to peel my face off if pointed at me. I have a hunch these speakers might sound a little different from one another... 

Oh, uhhh... the Sony is in RED