[bk12]

I have seen a lot of folks using the ICE ASP 500w and 1000w modules in more and more amplifiers these days.  I believe the A version needs a power supply-which I understand could be built a number of ways, but I understand the ASP version comes with built in switch mode supply-ready to go.  Are all amplifiers using the ASP unit going to sound the same (Rowland (201, 501), eAR, PS Audio, other misc. companies coming out with these)?

[Wayne1]

JJAZ also uses the ASP modules. Srajan Ebaen has a pair of the 1Kw mono blocks and the 500 watt stereo amps on hand right now for review.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jjaz/jjaz.html

Here is his preliminary thoughts on the amps.

Rowland and PS Audio have added some circuitry before the modules in their versions. This will change the sound from the standard module.

I have found that they are fairly sensitve to wire changes. I (IMHO) improved the sonics by replacing the internal wire with solid core silver on the input and my NITRO wire for speaker output and AC.

Srajan is trying to get some of the other folks who are offering amps built with these modules to send him some samples for review. Hopefully we will be able to read about an ICEPower shootout in a future edition on 6moons

[Hantra]

Wayne:

I am using Au24 speaker wire.  I was told that ICE amps don't like this b/c of the capacitance (although Audience doesn't list capacitance figures).  

What's your experience with this?

Thanks!

B

[Wayne1]

The ICE amps DO NOT like PURE high capacitance on the outputs.

The maximum pure capacitve load is 470 nF

The amps are a LOT happier with 330 nF or less.

In the real world, it is hard to find a pure capacitve load. Even electrostats have a resistive element to them.

I have found the JAZZ amps to sound best with short runs of speaker cable. A star quad arangment seems to work best, like my Nitro speaker cable  

[Hantra]

I have found the JAZZ amps to sound best with short runs of speaker cable. A star quad arangment seems to work best, like my Nitro speaker cable  

Thanks for the wisdom!  I hate to turn this into a Bolder thread, but is Nitro a shielded cable?

Thanks,

B

[muralman1]

Henry's H2O Signatures have been sent to Strajan. These are ICE 500A amps. They utilize a very beefy in house analog power supply, plus some circuitry wizadry to augment the ICE's potential.

Speaker cable choice is important. These are high current amps.

Of equal importance is the choice of power cables. They should be fully shielded from EMI, and RFI. Similar cables should be used on all components feeding into the ICE amp.

A clean transport and DAC help a lot. The preamp should be active. The ICE module benefits from good power supply co-components.

When entering the ICE world, you are embarking on a system change.

[CornellAlum]

Digital amps and bolder nitro are a match made in detailed heaven!

[Wayne1]

With respect, I will disagree with the shielded power cable statement.

To my ears, shielded power and speaker cables rob an amp of dynamics.

The input cables should be shielded. The ICE modules are native balanced. The JJAZ amps only accept XLR connectors. They do come with adaptors for single ended cables. The switching of the outputs could produce some "noise" that could be picked up by braided, unshielded,  low level interconnects.

I have also found a great benefit from feeding the amps balanced power with filters isolating the amps from the rest of the components in your system.

The ASP modules draw very little current. You do not need a very large balanced power transformer.

[muralman1]

It is for sure, different amps or different ears.

The best way to isolate amps from the rest of the components is to use dedicated outlets.

Shielding in power cables must be grounded. We have tried a great collection of cables, and the Shunyata Sidewinder, a well shielded cable, won the day for all listeners, all the time.  The music gained in dynamics and noise floor reduction. I have found using much less expensive bulk shielded cables, grounding them myself, is nearly as good.

Granted, ASP ICE modules have a built digital supply. It does not need an added supply system. 500A ICE modules have no digital supply, and do need an external power supply.

[Hantra]

The preamp should be active..

Well I'm getting ready to try the Rowland 501's with a volume control on my DAC.  I haven't yet heard a system with a passive sound better than the same system with a GOOD preamp, but it seems that every time I question Scott Nixon on anything, I prove myself wrong.  So I'm trusting him on this one.  

The amps have selectable gain so I could go to 32dB.  This might help with a passive.

[Wayne1]

The best way to isolate amps from the rest of the components is to use dedicated outlets.
 ...

Once again, I will disagree.

I will have to assume you are talking about dedicated line. While a single run from the breaker panel to the listening room will help assure minimal amount of noise interfering with the dedicated line, the noise will still be there. The line is still connected to the rest of the wiring of the house at the breaker box. It is still connected to anyone else's wiring on the same transformer you are on. Any thing that uses a switching power supply: DVD players, TVs, computers, etc is throwing trash into the AC line.

A dedicated line will make sure that noise is not directly connected to the component on the dedicated line, but it cannot isolate it. The ONLY way to ISOLATE a component from everything plugged into the AC in the house is to use a transformer. A balanced power or a isolation transformer will do this. Balanced power provides additional noise reduction by splitting the AC into two 60 volt legs out of phase with each other reducing common mode noise. Using LCR filters after the transformers with prevent anything plugged into the transformer from polluting anything else plugged into it.

For a more complete discussion on AC power conditioning, please review Occam's and JoshK thread here

[muralman1]

Well, I should have said, "Non digital power supply amps." I would like to hear a report of your listening.

[Hantra]

Wayne:

I just picked up a transformer from Parts Express an am planning on using it for isolation.  Is there a particular transformer that must be used for balanced power, or can one configure a standard toroid like I have for balanced operation?

Thanks!

B

[muralman1]

Wayne1, we are not disagreeing. You said, "other components." As far as external noise goes, a well constructed conditioner, one that does not rob current, does help indeed. How much depends on the garbage in your power source lines.

[Wayne1]

B,

You CAN use any transformer that has 60 volt, center tapped secondary windings for balanced power. You should be careful about the rating of the transformer. Anything much over 500VA you may have to deal with excessive inrush current. You may have to add a in-rush current limiter to prevent your breaker from popping when you plug it in. Depending on how well the transformer was built, it may be sensitive to any DC voltage in your mains. If there is DC present, it may cause your transformer to hum.

I dealt with all of those issues when I built a couple of prototype balanced conditioners. At the end, I found it cheaper, easier and better to go with the Equi=tech product.

The Rowland 501 uses a VERY large isolation transformer to raise the AC voltage to 220. You do not have to worry about any noise coming back from those amps. I guess that is one reason they are so expensive

[Hantra]

The Rowland 501 uses a VERY large isolation transformer to raise the AC voltage to 220. You do not have to worry about any noise coming back from those amps. I guess that is one reason they are so expensive..

Hahaha!  No comment on the expensive part.  

I didn't know they used an internal transformer besides the one used on the ICE board.  That's interesting.  

Thanks for the info!!!

B

[muralman1]

The H2O has a 1Kv toroid  transformer, as part of it's power supply. It is a highly sophisticated amp.

[Wayne1]

Sorry B,

I am afraid I was wrong about the 501. That amp uses the 1000 ASP. That is the same module as used in the JJAZ IP110KW mono-blocks and the IP210KW Stereo amp.

It is pretty much the same amp as the 201 except for the bigger module.  It uses a transformer on the input side.

I was actually thinking of the 300 series by JRDG. There were some pictures posted here on AC of a 300 series amp using the ICE Power modules with a very large Plitron transformer to bring the voltage to 220 and then a "Power Factor Corrector" before the ICE module. Those photos now seem to be MIA  

The "A" series modules that are used in the H2O amps and the early Acoustic Reality amps do not have short circuit or thermal protection built in.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticreality/enigma.html

This link is for Srajan's review of the Acoustic Reality eAR Enigma Plus using a 250A module. It has a very good discussion on how the ICEPower technology works. It also talks about how easily the "A" module was blown up by Srajan

The ASP modules, used in the Rowland and JJAZ products, do have a full protection scheme, thermal, over current protection, short circuit and HF protection.

For a quick overview of the difference between the ICEPower Modules: http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/sw2013.asp

Here is another link to 6Moons where Srajan discusses the 1000ASP module: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/icepower/icepower.html