[Tweaker]

This has become unnecessarily complex, it seems. I am only using the method I described to make sure the outputs between the tweeters and mids of one speaker match the outputs of the tweeters/mids of the other speaker. Once done then I listen to MUSIC to check on the "maximum clarity, definition and good tonal balance" as Brian would say. If those criteria are met than I'm done. If not I adjust the levels up or down as required to acheive clarity, definition,etc., but again I will use the meter to make sure that both speakers have been adjusted up or down exactly the same.  

[John Casler]

This has become unnecessarily complex, it seems. I am only using the method I described to make sure the outputs between the tweeters and mids of one speaker match the outputs of the tweeters/mids of the other speaker. Once done then I listen to MUSIC to check on the "maximum clarity, definition and good tonal balance" as Brian would say. If those criteria are met than I'm done. If not I adjust the levels up or down as required to acheive clarity, definition,etc., but again I will use the meter to make sure that both speakers have been adjusted up or down exactly the same.  

You are correct, it could get "very" complex if you tried to measure several frequencies and and try to make "any" adjustment based on multiple readings.

The L-pads cannot offer any frequency equalization.

While logic might lead one to think that the SPL reading of the FST and the Neopanel "should" read the same, on a single speaker, that is probably not the case (even with the "single" panel version like my 626R) since the neopanel covers a greater frequency range, it might need to be higher?

I'll experiment a bit and see what I think, but ultimately the ear at the listening position is the "key" instrument of adjustment.

I do like using it this get the L&R adjustments (if any - mine were within .5db) just right, if needed.

[ctviggen]

I think the meter method is by far the easiest method for setting r/l levels.  Thank you for discussing this.

As an aside, I finally adjusted my center channel a bit.  I was watching the first (fourth?) Star Wars movie on DVD, and I stopped the DVD, and just adjusted the two pots on my RM30C to the 12:30 position.  This position was much better than before, which was slanted a bit too much toward the high end.  Now, I just need someone to turn these while I listen.  (It's too hard to do myself -- I have to physically climb onto a Larger in order to adjust the pots.)

[John Casler]

I think the meter method is by far the easiest method for setting r/l levels.  Thank you for discussing this.

As an aside, I finally adjusted my center channel a bit.  I was watching the first (fourth?) Star Wars movie on DVD, and I stopped the DVD, and just adjusted the two pots on my RM30C to the 12:30 position.  This position was much better than before, which was slanted a bit too much toward the high end.  Now, I just need someone to turn these while I listen.  (It's too hard to do myself -- I have to physically climb onto a Larger in order to adjust the pots.)

Maybe a few Pilates classes will help

Just kidding  

[ctviggen]

Pilates could help!  Though I wonder if Pilates will be the aerobics of the 2000s -- no one will remember what this in in 10 years.  Really, though, I have to climb onto my Larger, reach across the back of my RPTV and get to the pots.  Plus, I broke off half of one of the pots, so I can't even use a screw driver.  I'm going to convince the girlfriend to sit back there and adjust the pots while I listen.

[Tweaker]

I strictly use pink noise to set the levels. The discussion about 1/12 octave sweeps etc., mysified me a bit and can't possibly be of any use setting levels. Great for seeing frequency dips/peeks (using a meter) but that's another subject. I also don't try to set the mids and the tweeters to the same levels on the same speaker. They require different levels in relation to each other to get a proper balance. You are correct in that the only point of this is to set the L&R speaker levels to be identical.

[John Casler]

I stricktly use pink noise to set the levels. The discussion about 1/12 octave sweeps etc., mysified me a bit and can't possibly be of any use setting levels. Great for seeing frequency dips/peeks (using a meter) but that's another subject. I also don't try to set the mids and the tweeters to the same levels on the same speaker. They require different levels in relation to each other to get a proper balance. You are correct in that the only point of this is to set the L&R speaker levels to be identical.

It is a good tweak

Thanks for letting us in on it.

[ted_b]

I stricktly use pink noise to set the levels. The discussion about 1/12 octave sweeps etc., mysified me a bit and can't possibly be of any use setting levels. Great for seeing frequency dips/peeks (using a meter) but that's another subject. I also don't try to set the mids and the tweeters to the same levels on the same speaker. They require different levels in relation to each other to get a proper balance. You are correct in that the only point of this is to set the L&R speaker levels to be identical.

Man, I must be doing a horrible job explaining this!

I never implied that I set each speaker's l-pads to have the same output!  That would be ludicrous.  I simply use some high frequency (say, 10k) test tones on the left speaker and check it's reading at the listening position.  It reads 78db.  great!  Now I check the right speaker and adjust the tweeter (only) l-pad to read 78 db.  Repeat the same with midrange tones (1k-5k) and set the l-pads of the mids to be the same for each speaker, at the listening position.   Since I already know the fr of my room at the listening psotion, and already know the range of the tweeter or midranges of my speakers  I use tones that a) fit in that range, and b) are not attenuated or show peaks at my romm's listening position.  

I feel that measuring at the listening position is better for my needs; that's all I'm trying to say.  If I used full bandwidth tones like pink noise I couldn't isolate, measure and adjust the output levels of the mids vs tweeters.   So to say of my method (which are not sine sweeps)  "It couldnt possibly be of any use" required a response.

Ted

[Tweaker]

Ted,
my apologies, I stand corrected. I wasn't referring to you, by the way, when I talked about not setting the levels the same for the mids/tweets. That was just agreeing with what John Casler said in one of his previous posts:
 

While logic might lead one to think that the SPL reading of the FST and the Neopanel "should" read the same, on a single speaker, that is probably not the case (even with the "single" panel version like my 626R) since the neopanel covers a greater frequency range, it might need to be higher?

[jermmd]

I think the meter method is by far the easiest method for setting r/l levels.  Thank you for discussing this.

As an aside, I finally adjusted my center channel a bit.  I was watching the first (fourth?) Star Wars movie on DVD, and I stopped the DVD, and just adjusted the two pots on my RM30C to the 12:30 position.  This position was much better than before, which was slanted a bit too much toward the high end.  Now, I just need someone to turn these while I listen.  (It's too hard to do myself -- I have to physically climb onto a Larger in order to adjust the pots.)

Bob,

That's funny because the 12:30 position was the recommended starting point.  After months of tweaking and adjusting the pots it's ridiculous how close to the original recommendation I have ended up at.  You must come over for a listen some time because my speakers are sounding soooo sweet.

Joe M.

[ctviggen]

Hey Joe,

I set them that way on a whim!  My girlfriend has offered to adjust the pots for me as I listen, but I've been waiting until the RM40 upgrade gets here to adjust everything.  I also adjusted the RM40s to the 12:30 position, which did mellow things out a bit.  When you do this, how long do you get used to the sound before trying something else?  

Anyway, as for coming over, let's disuss.  I now have both the Ack Dack 1.2d and the 2.0 which I can bring over.  I may sell the 1.2d or give it to my friend, if he'll use it.  We could test the difference between the two (which I've not done yet).  The next weekend isn't good but the two weekends after that might not be bad, though I should check with my girlfriend to be sure -- she's the planner.  I think that at least one day per weekend should be open.  I'd love to hear the speakers.  I think if I could do it over again, I'd get the RM30s because the RM40s -- while they sound great -- are massive.  They're truly imposing speakers.  Heck, I bought the RM40s because I didn't want to buy a sub and now I have three subs!

[ted_b]

Tweaker,
No problem.  Another thing I've done on my RM/X's is to go out and buy four (4) knobs from Rat Shack.  They have gold set screws and will work if you just push them on far enough to still acess the set screw.  My l-pads were off by 30 minutes or so (meaning one end of extreme was 6pm for one, 6:30pm for other).  So I simply set the knobs to be standardized at 6pm.  Then went about my tweaking.

Ted

[jermmd]

Hey Joe,

I set them that way on a whim!  My girlfriend has offered to adjust the pots for me as I listen, but I've been waiting until the RM40 upgrade gets here to adjust everything.  I also adjusted the RM40s to the 12:30 position, which did mellow things out a bit.  When you do this, how long do you get used to the sound before trying something else?  

It takes me a long time to decide on changes.  I doubt other VMPS people are as nutty as me when it comes to adjusting the pots.  It took me a week to decide wether or not a one click adjustment in the treble pots was OK or not(it was).  I can hear subtle adjustments pretty readily.  I just have trouble determining if the adjustment is for the better or worse.

Joe M.

[zybar]

This thread is why I am happy to almost be out of the pots and putty business.  

George

[Tweaker]

It's why I sometimes have a love/hate relationship with my RM2's.  The pot adjustments for the tweeters and midranges and the mordite putty/passive radiator tuning can turn you neurotic. Fortunately I have it all locked in and am pretty happy with the sound but it sometimes made me crazy getting there. (And my wife).

[jermmd]

This thread is why I am happy to almost be out of the pots and putty business.  

George

Yes, but when you have them adjusted properly, they sound so good.

Joe M.

[ctviggen]

Actually, I love the ability to tune the RM40s.  Most speakers do not provide any way to tune them.  One of the reasons I bought the RM40s/RM30C was because of the ability to tune them to my tastes, the room, my equipment, and my current interconnects/speaker cables, etc.  While I love my Linn 5140s, I always wanted to be able to adjust the tweeter just a little bit upward, but could not.  

Granted, you might be able adjust things by buying new interconnects or other cables, but this gets expensive.  Personally, I'm sick of spending thousands (and that's no exaggeration) for cables/interconnects/power cords that provide a minute degree of difference, when I can turn a pot and get a much larger change for free.  

Plus, George, please don't diss our speakers.  I enjoy the RM40s and the RM30C.  You may have the ability/desire to keep buying speakers, power cords, amps, preamps, TACTs, etc, but not all of us do.  Personally, I think a huge amount of money I've spent on my system has been wasted to get less than 1% improvement.   I enjoy my system the way it is now, and think that the obscene amount of money I've been spending lately would be better given to charity.  I'm buying a new digital IC because the one I have is incredibly stiff and very hard to work with.  After that, I'm not buying anything but acoustic treatments.  I honestly don't hear much of a difference in interconnects or speaker cable; I've never heard a difference for power cords or outlets; I've never heard 3D imaging.  I don't feel the need to continually keep upgrading; my money is better spent elsewhere.  I think I'm not an audiophile -- I don't have a desire to constantly tweak my system (you'll note that this is the FIRST time I've modified the pots on my speakers).  So, I'm just going to have to do with my crappy sounding, constantly needs adjusting RM40s and RM30C.

[woodsyi]

Bob,

You do have to admit that it is a love/hate relationship.  It makes sense to have the pot since room environments are so different for everyone.  It's great to be able to tune as you change things in you chain or room, but it is a painstakingly tedious/tortuous process.  If you got money and the desire, ala Zybar, you just custom order what you want and dial it in with your Tact and gold connectors.  Or if you have time and the desire, you go DIY route, ala Josh K, and build everything from "almost" scratch.  You and I seem to fall in the middle ground where we have modicum of disposable income that we are willing to put into audio with just enough time to tweak here and there to "settle" for our optimal sounds.  

I love the tunabilty of my RM40's most of the time, but I sometimes want to take that putty and fling it across the room!

[audiochef]

I too find these pots indespensable.

It seems to me all who have trouble tunining , is because the putty is just not right.

As Brian also always stresses , if putty isn't right  everything else will be off. The sound will be as incoherent and out of tune as I was a few weeks ago. Excuse me very much all, for I was on my anual leave of senses and lost in space week. This always seems to coincide with upgrading my system. Hmm.

Any way guys, my tip is to get back to square one and readjust the putty first.

Stan

[warnerwh]

Audiochef is right. It's easy once the putty is right.  What surprises me is that alot of speakers have pots.  Probably the most popular high end speaker of all time, Vandersteen model 2 series, have pots.

I too love the ability to do very fine tuning with these speakers.  In contrast my home theater uses a pair of old Legacy Classics and there are toggles for the mids and tweets but it's either too much or not enough.  Every time we watch a movie I notice the imbalance and know I can do nothing about it.  If that was my RM 40's off that much it would drive me nuts. The pots are something I find is a major importance in getting the best sound.  The only way I'd do without them is DSP.

Room position is huge too. Even 1/2" can make a major difference and should be experiemented with until you're out of real estate to try.  Room position alone can make or break a system.  Room position will only take you so far though.  I wouldn't own a speaker without a way to adjust it's sound anymore.