[caryking]

I just watched Danny’s video on the KLH Model 5’s.  I recently bought them, from Crutchfield, and sent them back.  Danny mentions cleaning up the vocal region, in this speaker, with some changes.  That is exactLy why I sent them back.

I could never, in my system, get them to lose a hollowness honking sound through the midrange.  I had a buddy of mine come over to listen and he asked to play a certain track that he knows intimately.  It took him all of 20 seconds to say “Fail”.  He and I both were hearing the same thing…

Now, based on Danny’s review, could the KLH have been calling out a weakness in my system that other speakers, I have, can’t?  My system consist of a MacBook Pro, running Roon > Denafrips Ares 2 DAC > Rega Elicit-R > (currently) Celestion SL6S.

When I had the KLH, my previous DAC was out of the system and broke.  So, I put my Bluesound Node (latest version) in replacing the MacBook and DAC.

All of my cables are built by my friend and me using the Helix Image instructions:

http://www.image99.net/blog/files/d048bbacfce9bcad4a025be804771d9a-76.html

Danny, did you and the person that owns the KLH listen to them in your system?

[Hobbsmeerkat]

The only thing that comes to mind with what you're hearing is that I've had a few people mention that they really need some power to get them sounding their best. And it's possible that may have been a related issue?

Hard to say tho, since the Customer only brought one so there was no means to really listen to them

[caryking]

I know it would be difficult to receive both speakers for the upgrades you guys do; however, I do believe listening to them would add value to the whole process.  The KLH 5’s have been given glowing reviews by many people; however, I couldn’t get them to provide a realistic voice or sax on my reference songs.

So, for me, Danny’s video only perpetuated the same story (I don’t want to say lie) that everyone else has provided.  Again, perhaps my system was being revealed for something it’s missing.  I am open to that thinking…

[Early B.]

I know it would be difficult to receive both speakers for the upgrades you guys do; however, I do believe listening to them would add value to the whole process. ...

So, for me, Danny’s video only perpetuated the same story (I don’t want to say lie) that everyone else has provided. 

A gifted auto mechanic doesn't need to test drive the car to diagnose and repair a problem. Likewise, Danny doesn't need to listen to both speakers to determine how their sound can be improved.

Parts quality is highly correlated with sound quality. Look under the hood before you buy. 
 

[NoahH]

A gifted auto mechanic doesn't need to test drive the car to diagnose and repair a problem. Likewise, Danny doesn't need to listen to both speakers to determine how their sound can be improved.

Parts quality is highly correlated with sound quality. Look under the hood before you buy.

This has always bugged me a little. I agree with you on the core. There are also some brutal logistical issues like burn-in on caps taking a long time so doing an 'after' test would take a really long time.

But there are 2 things I keep coming back to.

1. Culturally we now have The Church of Amir that lives and dies by numbers alone, and this is encouraging that. Ironically, Amir listens to stuff as well, which I appreciate, but his audience largely does not. At least having a nod to listening would culturally help right now even if not technically required. Regardless of his technical knowledge, this is still literally telling the audience that they don't need to listen to the speakers to know if they are good.

2. This rejects the most powerful force of discovery in existence - luck. Even doing basic, short bits of listening can lead to "wait - why does that sound clearer than I expected?" Maybe there is a part maker who is doing something better at a lower price that KLH found. Maybe there is a pairing of parts that behaves differently than expected.

I really, really don't think the world will be better off for Danny spending 3 hours listening to KLH 5s. But letting them rub for an hour in the shop in general while folks work before and after, and referencing some aspect of the change would not be a big time loss (I might be wrong) and would be accretive for the community.

[Tyson]

Caps and inductors take a long time to burn in.  I am sure many people would not be happy with Danny taking an extra 3 weeks to get their speakers back to them.  Plus people often only send him 1 speaker because it's much cheaper to ship 1 speaker than 2.

What we really need is more end user before and after comparisons.  Their opinions are more authoritative anyway as they are the ones with long term experience with the speakers they sent in.

[tull skull]

I know it would be difficult to receive both speakers for the upgrades you guys do; however, I do believe listening to them would add value to the whole process.  The KLH 5’s have been given glowing reviews by many people; however, I couldn’t get them to provide a realistic voice or sax on my reference songs.

So, for me, Danny’s video only perpetuated the same story (I don’t want to say lie) that everyone else has provided.  Again, perhaps my system was being revealed for something it’s missing.  I am open to that thinking…

But now you have Danny and staff constructing the new crossovers and installing them. Doing the work to get them up and running is not part of the upgrade kit price. That could potentially be a lot of work (think Maggies) and you are assuming G&R could easily absorb this financial and man-hour cost.

The idea is great but not easy to do without extra cost. Tyson's idea seems the best way to get more performance data.

[caryking]

So, help me understand how to consider things.  We have, dang near every reviewer out there, stating the KLH 5's are very good; in fact winning product of the year, from some.  Then, we have Danny giving these speakers a good review (well, sort of).

With all this positive hype (prior to Danny's video) I bought them.  My friend and I both recognized a massive shortcoming in the speakers.  I send the speakers back.  Then, Danny comes out with his video; somewhat, confirming the reviews by these reviewers.

Since I've sent the KLH back, I have inserted multiple other speakers in my system.  Each pair have their strength's and weaknesses; however, none have been so glaringly wrong as the KLH.

If you take Danny's KLH video and his video calling out reviewers and think a little bit more macro, why should anyone consider the reviews of any of these people?

[Early B.]

So, help me understand how to consider things.  We have, dang near every reviewer out there, stating the KLH 5's are very good; in fact winning product of the year, from some.  Then, we have Danny giving these speakers a good review (well, sort of).

With all this positive hype (prior to Danny's video) I bought them.  My friend and I both recognized a massive shortcoming in the speakers.  I send the speakers back.  Then, Danny comes out with his video; somewhat, confirming the reviews by these reviewers.

Since I've sent the KLH back, I have inserted multiple other speakers in my system.  Each pair have their strength's and weaknesses; however, none have been so glaringly wrong as the KLH.

If you take Danny's KLH video and his video calling out reviewers and think a little bit more macro, why should anyone consider the reviews of any of these people?

Dude -- you're looking at a single scenario. In all cases, synergy is what matters most, and that can only be determined in your system. It seems plausible that the KLH's didn't blend well with your system. End of story. No big deal. Happens all the time.

Now, think about it this way -- 99% of reviews are positive. Few reviewers are willing to bash a product. In fact, they probably won't review it unless they think it's good. Steve Guttenberg -- the Audiophiliac, for example, is one of the more popular reviewers. Ever heard a bad review from him? Nope. Many years ago, I was reviewing audio gear and I ran across a terrible passive preamp. I couldn't, in good conscience, trash a product from a guy who's just trying to make an honest buck. 

Bottom line -- don't listen to reviewers. Instead, learn how to evaluate audio gear and make better purchasing decisions. That's precisely what Danny is trying to teach you to do.

 
     

[S Clark]

If you take Danny's KLH video and his video calling out reviewers and think a little bit more macro, why should anyone consider the reviews of any of these people?

If you hang around long enough, you'll find voices that you come to trust.  I know I used to look for guys that had similar gear to mine, but churned gear more and had bigger budgets.  Reading their impressions was meaningful.  There's a guy that used to post regularly here that had probably had every popular amp from 2000- 2015 in his system.  His opinion was meaningful... about amps.  Then there are the guys you build a personal relationship with.  Danny is one of those guys for me.  I know his ears and his integrity.  I take what he has to say with only the tiniest grain of salt.  After all, his ears aren't your ears. 

[Tyson]

So, help me understand how to consider things.  We have, dang near every reviewer out there, stating the KLH 5's are very good; in fact winning product of the year, from some.  Then, we have Danny giving these speakers a good review (well, sort of).

With all this positive hype (prior to Danny's video) I bought them.  My friend and I both recognized a massive shortcoming in the speakers.  I send the speakers back.  Then, Danny comes out with his video; somewhat, confirming the reviews by these reviewers.

Since I've sent the KLH back, I have inserted multiple other speakers in my system.  Each pair have their strength's and weaknesses; however, none have been so glaringly wrong as the KLH.

If you take Danny's KLH video and his video calling out reviewers and think a little bit more macro, why should anyone consider the reviews of any of these people?

Cheap gear is cheaply made and cheaply built.  You can buy a cheap speaker and get better performance out of it by upgrading the parts in the crossover and also by bracing and damping the cabinet internally.  But it's still, at heart, a cheap speaker.  IME, it's better to spend that money on something designed to be high performance from the get go.  Like the GR Research speaker kits.  There are also other people doing high performance kits that are worth looking at too. 

[caryking]

Looks like my post was taken out of context...

[S Clark]

Not exactly.  Your point is valid about the positive bias in most reviews.  My comment is to pick who you listen to... which for me seldom/never includes  published audio media. 
There are guys here that I've learned have taste similar to mine, or experience that vastly exceeds my own.  I got a few guys that listen to about speakers more than others because they have a history of picking out qualities that match what I've heard. One set for speakers, one set for amps, and different guys for vinyl and digital.  Some are still here, others have moved on. 

[caryking]

I get what you’re saying and I’m really not disagreeing with you.  I saw all the positive hype; however, I really didn’t use the reviewers opinions of the KLH prior to buying them.  My interest was in the speaker because of what it was.  I actually bought them at Crutchfield because of the return policy.

I started paying attention to the reviewers videos once I had already broken them in and started to listen.  With the complaint I had, I wanted to see if anyone was referencing the same issue.  Not a single video stated anything regarding the issue I was having.

So, at that point I thought, can all these reviewers be completely missing something?  Am I a more astute listener?  Are they bought and paid for reviews?  Are these speakers revealing a massive weakness in my system?  I really didn’t know.  What I do know is that my experience was very different than all these reviewers.

Then, Danny chimed in with his review…. I thought ok, Danny would provide more insight.  Well, that didn’t happen.  At that point, when Danny’s video came out, the speakers were already gone and credited back.

In todays world, we have very few retail outlets to listen to certain product (or take them home for the weekend); so, we are left to buying from dealers that will allow full refunds.  I have my own ears to tell me what I like and what I don’t like.  Additionally, I am a believer that no system is going to reproduce what actually happened when it was recorded; so, I tailor the sound to my likings.

One other thing: I went to a retail store that had their main listening room set up with DeVore Fidelity speakers being driven by Leben tube stuff.  The overall sound exhibited the same missing element I found with my system with the KLH speakers.

I don’t have the KLH speakers anymore and… it is what it is…

[caryking]

Dude -- you're looking at a single scenario. In all cases, synergy is what matters most, and that can only be determined in your system. It seems plausible that the KLH's didn't blend well with your system. End of story. No big deal. Happens all the time.

Now, think about it this way -- 99% of reviews are positive. Few reviewers are willing to bash a product. In fact, they probably won't review it unless they think it's good. Steve Guttenberg -- the Audiophiliac, for example, is one of the more popular reviewers. Ever heard a bad review from him? Nope. Many years ago, I was reviewing audio gear and I ran across a terrible passive preamp. I couldn't, in good conscience, trash a product from a guy who's just trying to make an honest buck. 

Bottom line -- don't listen to reviewers. Instead, learn how to evaluate audio gear and make better purchasing decisions. That's precisely what Danny is trying to teach you to do.

 
     

FYI, I’m 56 and have been doing this for 30+ years.  Actually, worked at a company and helped R&D the sound they achieved.  I was in my mid 20’s.

I trust my own decision making and really don’t need anybody to confirm my opinions.  Actually, prior to buying the KLH, I was going to get someone to build me a set of Encores or Studios; however, without being able to hear them, I passed.  That’s when I bought the KLH.  I knew I could return them if they didn’t work out.  That, in my opinion, is a better purchasing decision!!

Don’t want to be stuck with something if I don’t like it!!  Dude!!

[Early B.]

Actually, prior to buying the KLH, I was going to get someone to build me a set of Encores or Studios; however, without being able to hear them, I passed.  That’s when I bought the KLH.  I knew I could return them if they didn’t work out. 

That's great! Treat yourself to a pair of Studio monitors. There are a couple of guys on this forum who will build them for you.     

[caryking]

Ok

[RDavidson]

As another anecdotal data point, I don't like the KEF LS50's. Talk about a universally praised speaker! Do I think it's a bad speaker and that reviewers are idiots? No. Definitely not. The issue I had, which only occured to me by trying them in my home, was that their low sensitivity was horrible for my listening "style." Not only do the LS50's like power, they also need to be pushed a bit in order for their lower mids and bass to flesh out. I listen at relatively low volumes and what most would consider nearfield (about 7-8 ft form the speakers). In my room and per my preferences the LS50's sounded thin and sterile. Wait what? This is not at all what the reviews nor measurements said! I was using Pass amplification, so no issues there. What the heck?! It simply boiled down to the KEFs not being a good fit for me, my room, and my listening preferences. So now, in general, I steer clear of speakers with sensitivity and impedance ratings similar to the LS50's as I know they are unlikely to work for me (I tried some small Dynaudios too and had similar results as well). I imagine that this could be the same issue you experienced with the KLH's. I doubt they're "bad" speakers and that reviewers are lieing. They just didn't work for you. My point is, try stuff out as much as you can. Use reviews as a guide. As others have said, you may find some reviewers you can relate to and others you cannot. Use Amir's info as a data point too, but not as your singular guide. It's great that Amir listens as well. Measurements do not tell the whole story regarding how we humans hear and perceive, which is partly why Amir provides his subjective thoughts. Experience gear in your home with your music. That's the only way to truly find what's best for you and your ears!

[Tyson]

Yes, at this point I refuse to buy a speaker that is low sensitivity and low/crazy impedance.  Just won't work with my amps or my listening preferences.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I just watched Danny’s video on the KLH Model 5’s.  I recently bought them, from Crutchfield, and sent them back.  Danny mentions cleaning up the vocal region, in this speaker, with some changes.  That is exactLy why I sent them back.

I could never, in my system, get them to lose a hollowness honking sound through the midrange.  I had a buddy of mine come over to listen and he asked to play a certain track that he knows intimately.  It took him all of 20 seconds to say “Fail”.  He and I both were hearing the same thing…

Now, based on Danny’s review, could the KLH have been calling out a weakness in my system that other speakers, I have, can’t?  My system consist of a MacBook Pro, running Roon > Denafrips Ares 2 DAC > Rega Elicit-R > (currently) Celestion SL6S.

When I had the KLH, my previous DAC was out of the system and broke.  So, I put my Bluesound Node (latest version) in replacing the MacBook and DAC.

All of my cables are built by my friend and me using the Helix Image instructions:

http://www.image99.net/blog/files/d048bbacfce9bcad4a025be804771d9a-76.html

Danny, did you and the person that owns the KLH listen to them in your system?

I certainly don't dispute your findings with the KLH's and they very well may not be a good speaker.  But you need to keep in mind system matching.  Your electronics and source are different than the reviewers.  I had a similar issue as you.  I bought a pair of PSB T3's which sold for close to $8k based on reviews as  I could not hear them locally.  They did not sound very good in my system.  They were great for acoustic music and that's it.  They were too flat and boring sounding.   All the pro reviews from Stereophile, TAS and a few others said that they compared to speakers in the $20K range.  I ended up selling them to a friend who has much different gear and he loves them.  They were not a good match for my Pass amp, BAT preamp and Luxman DAC.  The speakers needed a system that was more aggressive, faster paced and a little forward.