REW is so depressing!

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Cappy

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #60 on: 10 Jan 2022, 06:36 am »
Well, I do use EQ, it's very useful for the bass peaks.

You are half way there, then.

And getting speakers with some attempt at constant directivity also helps.  As does getting an OB speaker (particularly in the bass) as it naturally excites less room modes. 

Ditto in my system with horns and open baffles.  Very helpful.  Actually, more than helpful in my room with mucho windows, non-optimum shape for room nodes, and large opening to other areas of the house: necessary.

I wish just using FIR filters and convolution fixed everything perfectly in the digital domain, and giving you perfect sound in-room in the analog domain.  That would be super cool.

The SOTA software solutions aren't perfect, but things like target curves have pretty cool results. :)

AJinFLA

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AKLegal

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #62 on: 10 Jan 2022, 02:30 pm »
I’ve yet to attend a live performance where a room was likely to have measured anywhere near flat. Orchestra, jazz, rock, folk, you name it, the room usually sucks. So if live music is our gold standard, why should we not believe our ears and instead fret about what a computer program tells us? Ok, a huge mode might concern me, but don’t let what you’ve supposedly learned by a graph rob you of your enjoyment—which is no illusion.

Ive never liked the live music comparison to 2 channel home audio. I dont have the actual music performers sitting between my speakers acting as a third, fourth, fifth add infinitum sound source.

I'd argue that live music often has a "u shaped" response curve that  sounds engaging or exciting. You probably don't hear a ton of midrange detail in live settings. You need a flatter response to hear more midrange detail. If you value that,  then you end up obsessing over response curves just a bit.

More to your point, I definitely  use both my ears and response plots. I aim for flat response but once I get close, I make slight adjustments  according to my ears and measure again.

abomwell

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #63 on: 10 Jan 2022, 02:58 pm »
And getting speakers with some attempt at constant directivity also helps. 

Would you say the X series speakers have constant directivity? Does the AMT waveguide serve to spread out its launch pattern to match the wave pattern from the mid-range driver?

Mr. Big

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #64 on: 10 Jan 2022, 03:08 pm »
The thing about these programs is yes they change the sound but will you like it. This program works better than this program, oh I like the bell curve or the U curve, you can chase your tail to no end. In the end, we all hear different but we also have a sound we like, like how we like spices in our food. Our audio systems are built or should be built for us to enjoy our music and not the gear, which you also could keep changing to no end until you burn out and get out of the hobby due to frustration. Power Cords can make a profound change to one piece of gear, what then more so than a interconnect or speaker wire. Then you run the DSP programs again to change that sound. I had a Cello parametric equalizer back in the day, it started off fun, then it drove me nuts, I started to use it on every LP I played, it changed the sound of the LP, but it was never as it was cut to sound, I could bring a piano more forward, vocals and on and on but at the expense of something else on the record. I sold it, and after a few weeks with just my preamp and phono preamp I started to relax and enjoy the music and my system and not fret that every recording was not perfect to my idea of sound.

The room acoustics and setup do matter. Folks who make gear and build speakers know what they are doing and decide what the voicing on their gear is as they hoped it would be. Tilt a speaker back or forward will change the sound, put larger 2" high support feet under a speaker the speaker will sound different, bass response and imaging, but also you then I sitting to the speaker 2" lower below the tweeter/or midrange which will alter the sound.

Even what I hear and my wife hears sound different, I am 6'5" she is 5'2" when she sits in my chair she is hearing a different sound when I sit there, just our height difference impacts how we hear the speaker. sound where we sit. Moving the chair up or back changes the sound and imaging.  I read a line by a record producer years ago and he said a flat speaker in an audio room sounds terrible, lifeless, blah, but that speaker is great for the mixing room where we bring out instruments and vocals, etc.

The goal is to build it to where listening to your music is enjoyable to our own taste, not looking for perfection because there is no such thing. The old KISS is still valid in audio. Enjoy it, not turn it into work. I know gear junkies, who buy and buy and buy, looking for the sound they never like in the end because they always hear a flaw or not to their taste after a while, some left hobby due to frustration. They ruined it for themselves, nothing is perfect for them after a while, they loved the new piece of gear and saw the audio gods talk to them, but give it 6-months to a year, they start finding faults in the playback and off they go to the races again. They taught me a lesson and remember to this day. 



« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2022, 02:13 pm by Mr. Big »

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #65 on: 10 Jan 2022, 03:33 pm »
Thank you everyone.  I never expected such a huge conversation about my REW measurements.  I stayed up late last night watching the Raiders game and I'm a bit hung over this morning.  More coffee and I should be ready to take measurements again.  My game plan:

1.  Run REW, this time, via HDMI to my pre-amp (Audyssey OFF, of course) so I can use ASIO4ALL.
2.  I have the minidsp_UMIK-1 pointed at the ceiling with the 90 degree calibration (on a mike stand).
3.  Test again to determine if yesterday's results are similar.
4.  Test with subwoofer amps lowered to 50%.
5.  Move all speakers 6 inches closer to front wall (Wife happy)
6.  Move all speakers 6 inches further in to the room (Wife not happy).

I'll compare results.  It makes sense to me that the current position is in a room mode so I am very interested to learn the results.  I cannot move my seating.  If I move seating closer my wife and I get eye strain watching movies.  If I move them further back, my seating blocks door to backyard.  We have heavy recliners (my 70 year old body prefers recliners).

This is an interesting exercise.  I would like to improve the sound by moving the speakers.  But, if there is no improvement, the speakers go back to where they are now as I love the soundstage and depth.

I'll report back later.

Marcus (yeah, Las Vegas, NV).


Tyson

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #66 on: 10 Jan 2022, 04:43 pm »
Good!  Measurements are important because they let us get a better idea of where bass sounds best.  But one thing to be careful of - the place where the bass is most even may not be the place where you get the best imaging and midrange detail. 

Which is why I always position my speakers for best soundstage and overall sound, and then use EQ to tame whatever bass humps might be present.  Just something to keep in mind - you don't want to make one thing better while making something else worse. 

Saturn94

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #67 on: 10 Jan 2022, 05:16 pm »
I’ve yet to attend a live performance where a room was likely to have measured anywhere near flat. Orchestra, jazz, rock, folk, you name it, the room usually sucks. So if live music is our gold standard, why should we not believe our ears and instead fret about what a computer program tells us? Ok, a huge mode might concern me, but don’t let what you’ve supposedly learned by a graph rob you of your enjoyment—which is no illusion.

Agreed.  :thumb:

Of course, there’s nothing wrong with measuring/calibrating a system to a flat response to see if one thinks it improves their enjoyment.  But to say one is “just fooling themselves” if they enjoy their system without measuring/calibrating is silly.

The whole point of this hobby is enjoyment!  If that means measuring/calibrating/tweeking to the nth degree, go for it.  But it’s equally valid to just sit back and enjoy without all the fuss.


AJinFLA

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #69 on: 10 Jan 2022, 05:41 pm »
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with measuring/calibrating a system to a flat response to see if one thinks it improves their enjoyment.
As noted earlier, those are not "calibrations" whatsoever, but highly misguided endeavors, by those lacking understanding of the perceptual science, as I explained in prior links. Unfortunately, the "see" part is most misleading.
Don't take my word for it https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/an-enticing-marketing-story-theory-without-measurement.7127/page-3#post-162798
Quote
When I see extremely flat and smooth high resolution full bandwidth room curves it is an indication that some things were done that probably should not have been done.
We have no measurement apparatus that performs as a living binaural hearing system
Marcus might be best served by reading this https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/room-eq-faq.28684/
Dont just take a single measurement, judiciously cut any audibly offensive peaks in bass, then "trust ears" to tell what positioning sounds best.

cheers,

AJ

AJinFLA

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #70 on: 10 Jan 2022, 05:42 pm »
Good to hear from you, AJ!  I hope all is well with you.  :D
I've (so far) survived the Covid apocalypse. Still a creature of the wheel though.

cheers,

AJ

Saturn94

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #71 on: 10 Jan 2022, 05:59 pm »
As noted earlier, those are not "calibrations" whatsoever, but highly misguided endeavors, by those lacking understanding of the perceptual science, as I explained in prior links. Unfortunately, the "see" part is most misleading.
Don't take my word for it https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/an-enticing-marketing-story-theory-without-measurement.7127/page-3#post-162798Marcus might be best served by reading this https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/room-eq-faq.28684/
Dont just take a single measurement, judiciously cut any audibly offensive peaks in bass, then "trust ears" to tell what positioning sounds best.

cheers,

AJ

+100  :thumb:

mgalusha

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #72 on: 10 Jan 2022, 06:49 pm »
Which is why I always position my speakers for best soundstage and overall sound, and then use EQ to tame whatever bass humps might be present.  Just something to keep in mind - you don't want to make one thing better while making something else worse.

That is my approach and my mains don't play very low, making the bass easier to deal with via multiple subs and dsp on the subs.

radarnyc

Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #73 on: 10 Jan 2022, 10:00 pm »
2.  I have the minidsp_UMIK-1 pointed at the ceiling with the 90 degree calibration (on a mike stand).

Hey Marcus - I'm interested to see how you make out with this. I don't how much of difference it makes but I had been instructed by someone (Anand, maybe) to measure one speaker at a time, point the microphone at the speaker (maybe mid woofer) and not use the 90 degree calibration file. You'll want a dead quiet house during measuring of course. I have little feet running about my listening room oftentimes.

I plan on measuring my X5s later this week so it might be interesting since I had the X3 in the same space with the same equipment. Only the speakers changed.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #74 on: 11 Jan 2022, 01:11 am »
Hey Marcus - I'm interested to see how you make out with this.

Sorry for the delay.  I couldn't get it done today.  I hope tomorrow morning while everyone (including our dogs) are asleep.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #75 on: 13 Jan 2022, 12:29 am »
I finally ran more sweeps today.  As you may know, I have GIK diffusor/absorber panels on my front wall.  I also put bass traps along the floor behind each speaker.  I ran the sweeps with the bass traps and without the bass traps.  No difference at all.  I moved the speakers closer (from 5 feet) to the front wall.  The sweep showed a worse response.  I moved them further out in my room (WAF was not happy).  But, no real change from my original measurements.  Lastly, I moved the speakers back to their original position but turned the volume down to 50%.  Whoa, bass literally disappeared.  I turned the volume up to where the white line is in the middle top position.  This helped.  But, I'm not sure I will like it this way with bass much lower.  I need some time to listen.

I'll put the new measurement below, 1/12 smoothing.  If I use 75 dB as the mid point the peaks are only about 5 dB.  The frequency at 55 Hz drops off about 12 dB and is fairly narrow so I'll ignore it.  But, 100 to 140 Hz is down 10 dB.  Frequency trails off at about 12K but I can't hear anything above that anyway so it doesn't matter.  This was an interesting exercise.  I'm no expert but there is nothing more I can do.

Marcus




Bingenito

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #76 on: 13 Jan 2022, 01:30 am »
Seems like the volume was the root cause of peaks. The nulls appear to just the room and mic position relative to the speakers. Not really to surprised on with or without passive traps, you need a lot of them to make a difference. I have 8 large corner traps and 8 wall mount traps to create a measured difference in FR.

Desertpilot

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #77 on: 13 Jan 2022, 01:46 am »
I did run the sweeps numerous times with the same result so I guess the results are accurate.  I still have my old box subwoofers in the rear of the room (SVS SB13 Ultra (with the amp upgrade)).  I may turn those on and see if they fill in gaps.  Might be a fun exercise.

Marcus

abomwell

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #78 on: 13 Jan 2022, 02:22 am »
Marcus, if you can manage it, try putting subs in opposite room corners. In my room, with other speakers, it made a huge difference in filling in nulls.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: REW is so depressing!
« Reply #79 on: 13 Jan 2022, 03:14 am »
 :D You're welcome. Always best to check the easy stuff before making it difficult. If you liked the way it sounded, no reason to change it.

You may want to experiment taking some measurements with the subs off and moving the speakers to see if you can improve the null in the mid-bass, then turn the subs back on and see how everything looks. Using one or both of your box subs could help but that null is pretty high. Experiment with position and running one of the subs out of phase with the others.