parallel wiring query

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Quive

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parallel wiring query
« on: 8 Sep 2021, 11:18 pm »
I have just completed my X-Statiks and unfortunately they dont sound great, I must have wired something wrong.

can someone comment on this wiring layout please, I'm puzzled  :o









FullRangeMan

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #1 on: 9 Sep 2021, 12:03 am »

Yes these connections are both parallel, will result in 8 ohms.
Although I cant grant they will sound the same.

corndog71

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #2 on: 9 Sep 2021, 12:05 am »
Double check your connections.  Check that all drivers are working.  Give them a solid week of use to break in.

richidoo

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #3 on: 9 Sep 2021, 01:08 am »
Electrically they are wired the same. But the diagram on left is "biwired" which reduces the wire length to the 2nd driver thus reducing resistance and improving electrical damping. One temporary connection is removed from signal path to 2nd driver also with similar benefit. 

It's always a good idea to measure a new speaker's impedence with a tool like DATS to make sure it's as expected which assumes correct wiring and avoids shorts and other potentially damaging hookup mistakes.

Nice illustrations!!

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #4 on: 9 Sep 2021, 02:03 am »
Give them about 50 hours to break in. The woofers need a little time before they properly relax and fill in.

If they sound like they're really lacking in the mids and upper bass but have lots of treble, make sure the bass woofers are wired in the correct polarity, as they are wired backwards compared to the mids and tweeter.

If you got a fully upgraded kit with Sonicaps & Miflex caps the treble will sound rather hard/harsh, especially at first. They'll start to really start ro relax by 200 hours and be fully opened up after roughly 400 hours.

subsonic1050

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #5 on: 9 Sep 2021, 02:21 am »
What is it that you're hearing? Do they sound overly bright with a weak midrange? If so, read my build on the xstatik. These speakers REALLY need break in. It is absolutely staggering the transformation that takes place. Mine also sounded terrible to begin with.

Quive

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #6 on: 9 Sep 2021, 12:16 pm »
Electrically they are wired the same. But the diagram on left is "biwired" which reduces the wire length to the 2nd driver thus reducing resistance and improving electrical damping. One temporary connection is removed from signal path to 2nd driver also with similar benefit. 

It's always a good idea to measure a new speaker's impedence with a tool like DATS to make sure it's as expected which assumes correct wiring and avoids shorts and other potentially damaging hookup mistakes.

Nice illustrations!!


you say
"But the diagram on left is "biwired" which reduces the wire length to the 2nd driver thus reducing resistance and improving electrical damping.  "  where is the wire length shorter to the 2nd driver?  do you mean the 'combined' length of the two wires is longer, if so I get what you are saying but is that not an incredibly unlikely issue? in the realms of the 'musical wire' people

"One temporary connection is removed from signal path to 2nd driver also with similar benefit"  i dont understand this 'temporary connection' comment, do you mean the soldered connection at the 1st speakers terminal is worse than a straight run of wire ?
« Last Edit: 9 Sep 2021, 02:26 pm by Quive »

Quive

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #7 on: 9 Sep 2021, 12:24 pm »
Give them about 50 hours to break in. The woofers need a little time before they properly relax and fill in.

If they sound like they're really lacking in the mids and upper bass but have lots of treble, make sure the bass woofers are wired in the correct polarity, as they are wired backwards compared to the mids and tweeter.

If you got a fully upgraded kit with Sonicaps & Miflex caps the treble will sound rather hard/harsh, especially at first. They'll start to really start ro relax by 200 hours and be fully opened up after roughly 400 hours.

Yes, I think you understand the problem. i do have the fully upgraded kit and its so harsh i had to turn them off after less than half an hour - unbearable harshness, just awful. So it burn in for them, can do that ! the bass units are indeed wired out of phase as the should. Ill have to run them when out of the house so that I dont have to listen to them. - thanks

Quive

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #8 on: 9 Sep 2021, 12:26 pm »
What is it that you're hearing? Do they sound overly bright with a weak midrange? If so, read my build on the xstatik. These speakers REALLY need break in. It is absolutely staggering the transformation that takes place. Mine also sounded terrible to begin with.

Fantastic !  it means so much to know someone else has had this problem and that it resolves over the burn in time, they do indeed sound really awful, a piercing harshness / non musical - thanks

Quive

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #9 on: 9 Sep 2021, 12:31 pm »
Thanks everyone
I have never had to 'burn in' speakers before. Does it matter what volume they are at for the 100 to 400 hours?  I can leave the system on all day at low volume only (neighbours !!!) - is there a dB level that's optimum at 1m away for this?

Tyson

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #10 on: 9 Sep 2021, 02:24 pm »
Caps will form well even at low volume.  But the bass drivers need to move a lot to properly burn in. 

Here's a trick to help with burn in - wire 1 speaker in phase and the 2nd speaker out of phase (reverse the red/white speaker cables for one speaker only).  Then face them toward each other and play your burn in tracks.  You'll notice that you can turn it up quite a bit because they are cancelling each other out.  You can also throw a heavy blanket over them and that will quiet them down even more. 

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #11 on: 9 Sep 2021, 02:35 pm »
When burning-in different things like amps/speakers, I turn them up and down throughout the day, up a little while I'm at work, up more when I'm home, then down low at night.

I live in an apartment so im limited, but ive found that it's nore im portant to have them running, than have them playing loud then off.

richidoo

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #12 on: 9 Sep 2021, 02:47 pm »

you say
"But the diagram on left is "biwired" which reduces the wire length to the 2nd driver thus reducing resistance and improving electrical damping.  "  where is the wire length shorter to the 2nd driver?  do you mean the 'combined' length of the two wires is longer, if so I get what you are saying but is that not an incredibly unlikely issue? in the realms of the 'musical wire' people

"One temporary connection is removed from signal path to 2nd driver also with similar benefit"  i dont understand this 'temporary connection' comment, do you mean the soldered connection at the 1st speakers terminal is worse than a straight run of wire ?

Its not "unlikely," it is 100% fact that double the wire length plus an additional temporary connection increases the resistance of the 2nd driver which reduces electrical damping. The cost and effort are the same so why not do it the better way? Your imaginary 'Musical wire people' would probably prefer your wiring method.

The popular method of wiring speakers in opposite polarity for quieter break-in ignores the fact that it reduces the current dramatically which slows break in of dielectrics. Play them loud low and long in normal setup for best break in.

JWCoffman

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #13 on: 9 Sep 2021, 03:02 pm »
Thanks everyone
I have never had to 'burn in' speakers before. Does it matter what volume they are at for the 100 to 400 hours?  I can leave the system on all day at low volume only (neighbours !!!) - is there a dB level that's optimum at 1m away for this?
I noticed the same issues with my MTM's at first: very harsh and with little mid or bass response.  Within 10 hours or so the mids and bass started to come in and the harshness was mostly gone after 20.  After >100hrs now on them they have settled in quite nicely.  There are still some tracks that can generate harshness, but it's hard to tell how much of that is the recording and how much is the caps that need to be burned in more.  BTW, I do have the fully upgraded xovers with the bypass caps.

WGH

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #14 on: 9 Sep 2021, 03:22 pm »
The popular method of wiring speakers in opposite polarity for quieter break-in ignores the fact that it reduces the current dramatically which slows break in of dielectrics.

Please explain how current is reduced. If one speaker is wired out of phase without changing the internal wiring I would think both speakers get the same current. All that happens is the bass cancels so you can play them louder without disturbing the neighbors. Place the speakers face to face with a couple of inches between and throw some blankets on top to muffle the sound.

I would never change the polarity of the individual drivers, it's so hard the get it right the first time then reverse to for break-in, change back to correct polarity to listen then reverse again for another break-in session, this is a recipe for disaster.

I use the free Foobar2000 player with an old laptop repeating the frybaby burn-in track. The track is broadband noise from 20Hz to 20kHz plus a sweeping pulse from 2Hz to 200Hz. You can download the burn-in track here:

Right click link to "Save Link As..."
http://www.hagtech.com/media/frybaby.mp3

Play the frybaby.mp3 on non-stop repeat until you get bored.

subsonic1050

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #15 on: 9 Sep 2021, 03:31 pm »
Fantastic !  it means so much to know someone else has had this problem and that it resolves over the burn in time, they do indeed sound really awful, a piercing harshness / non musical - thanks

I was in the exact same boat as you just a few months ago. Every single review I read on the X-Statik's simply talked about how amazing they were. A review here and there said they needed break-in, but nobody that I could find ever said they sounded bad before break-in. After building mine I felt that they sounded truly horrible. My only conclusions were that either I wired something wrong or that this was yet another audio company that had a bunch of "fluff" reviews. I've been in audio for decades, and I've never experienced the transformation that took place upon break-in. It is literally like listening to completely different speakers. I actually told the friend I built them for that if you had put me in a room blindfolded and I heard the speakers after 8 hours break-in, and then again at 50 hours break-in, I would say that it was impossible for them to be the same pair of speakers.

Here is a quote of my listening impressions after full break-in. I can say that they do indeed continue to improve to around 200 hours, but that they transform around the 50 hour mark.

"I have decided I should post some listening impressions. This is partially because I think I can add something to the conversation and partially because I need to address some things I said in a different thread regarding my initial impressions of these speakers.

First of all, I sort of offhand mentioned that I didn't care for these speakers on a different post related to building a custom version of the X-Statik with a planar magnetic tweeter. After I built the speakers I hooked them up and played some music just to make sure that I had wired them up correctly. I didn't actually sit and listen to them at all until they had about 8 hours of play time on them. I knew that these speakers would break in over around 200 hours, but I assumed that I would have at least some idea what they would sound like after 8 hours of play time. I was wrong.

After 8 hours I hated them. I tried them with my Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 solid state amp as well as my PrimaLuna Evo 300 tube amp trying to find a good pairing. I said on the other thread that I didn't want to go so far as to say I hated them - but really I was being polite. I hated them. In fact, I was pretty distressed that I had taken the time to build them and that I had convinced a friend to part ways with his hard earned money to purchase them. I disliked them so much that I was seriously considering calling Danny and canceling my order for the 2 sets of NX-Treme's that I've been waiting for since May. I spoke with my relative in Vietnam (for whom the 2nd pair is for) about the experience and to be honest, we were both pretty rattled by what I was hearing - especially since each NX-Treme utilizes 8 of the same drivers that the X-Statik uses for it's midrange and bass drivers.

What I heard after 8 hours was a very thin, weak midrange and an extremely bright and shouty top end. I actually described them to my relative as "unlistenable". To me - they absolutely were. I had so much listening fatigue after only a few songs that my ears physically hurt. I had a headache and there was pressure in my ears similar to severe elevation changes. In addition to the weak midrange and bright top end - they also didn't have the open and airy sound I was looking for. It wasn't ALL bad - I could tell some positive things right away as well - the bass was fantastic. Not that it had major grunt - but they played significantly lower than I was expecting and the bass was fast and tight - really, really nice. Also the dynamics were great, as was the detail.

On that other thread a few people mentioned that their experiences were very different from mine. Mike Lundy mentioned that the drivers needed at least 30-50 hours break in - and that the midrange would open up and even out the treble (spoiler - he was right). I had also come to the conclusion that I needed to let them burn in more, but I really didn't think they could improve to the point where I would like them.

Well now the speakers are at 50 hours of break in (roughly). The difference is dramatic. Absolutely, night and day dramatic. My comparisons will be with my Magnepan 1.7i's - which are my current speaker and my favorite speakers that I've personally owned. I'll get it out of the way right away - I still prefer the Maggie's. The maggie's produce a richness in the midrange - particularly with string instruments and vocals that is unlike anything else I've ever heard. It's intoxicating. The X-Statik's still sound a bit thin and a bit distant by comparison, but they sure do sound GOOD now. Also, the bright top end has been tamed very significantly. They no longer hurt my ears and I've had 3 hour listening sessions with them the past 2 nights. Last night I still ended up with a headache - but it took several hours. The bass has only gotten better. It's absolutely amazing how fantastic the bass is from these (relatively) small speakers. Furthermore, that open and airy quality that I was looking for is now present. It's not on the level of the maggie's - but it's much, much more holographic than a normal box speaker. I'd also say that the soundstage from the Maggie's is roughly the same width - but it's much taller. You feel like you're getting hit with a wall of sound - with the x-statik it's a little more subdued but still excellent. I did also find that the positioning of the X-Statik is more critical than it was with the Magnepan speakers. Even a few inches of movement made a big difference, and the amount of toe had a profound effect.

All in all the X-Statik is a very good speaker. It is especially great as a first "audiophile" speaker. I'm now happy that my friend put the money into these speakers. One of his favorite commercial brands used to be B&W. Given their lineup tends to be a bit bright (for my taste) this may be a great fit for him.

I guess I wanted to post this to give encouragement to anyone who builds the X-Statik and doesn't like them right away. I've experienced speaker break-in many times, but I've never experienced changes this dramatic. All I could find online were countless reviews which raved about them - nobody seemed to dislike them, and I couldn't find any description similar to what I'm describing here. I will say that I am very susceptible to listening fatigue and that I prefer a warm sounding rig for that reason. If someone is reading this in the future and hates their new X-Statik's - fear not. Just push play and don't come back to listen for about 50 hours - you'll get the good stuff."



Quive

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #16 on: 9 Sep 2021, 03:39 pm »
Its not "unlikely," it is 100% fact that double the wire length plus an additional temporary connection increases the resistance of the 2nd driver which reduces electrical damping. The cost and effort are the same so why not do it the better way? Your imaginary 'Musical wire people' would probably prefer your wiring method.

The popular method of wiring speakers in opposite polarity for quieter break-in ignores the fact that it reduces the current dramatically which slows break in of dielectrics. Play them loud low and long in normal setup for best break in.

"The cost and effort are the same so why not do it the better way? " Because they are TOTALLY finished and i'd have to build new cabinets , the wires are not accessible.

"Your imaginary 'Musical wire people' would probably prefer your wiring method. "
The total lack of wiring information from GR Research is inexcusable, so 'my wiring method' is guesswork, please have some patience with me, i am suffering and upset. empathy would be appreciated


Quive

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #17 on: 9 Sep 2021, 03:48 pm »
I was in the exact same boat as you just a few months ago. Every single review I read on the X-Statik's simply talked about how amazing they were. A review here and there said they needed break-in, but nobody that I could find ever said they sounded bad before break-in. After building mine I felt that they sounded truly horrible. My only conclusions were that either I wired something wrong or that this was yet another audio company that had a bunch of "fluff" reviews. I've been in audio for decades, and I've never experienced the transformation that took place upon break-in. It is literally like listening to completely different speakers. I actually told the friend I built them for that if you had put me in a room blindfolded and I heard the speakers after 8 hours break-in, and then again at 50 hours break-in, I would say that it was impossible for them to be the same pair of speakers.

Here is a quote of my listening impressions after full break-in. I can say that they do indeed continue to improve to around 200 hours, but that they transform around the 50 hour mark.

"I have decided I should post some listening impressions. This is partially because I think I can add something to the conversation and partially because I need to address some things I said in a different thread regarding my initial impressions of these speakers.

First of all, I sort of offhand mentioned that I didn't care for these speakers on a different post related to building a custom version of the X-Statik with a planar magnetic tweeter. After I built the speakers I hooked them up and played some music just to make sure that I had wired them up correctly. I didn't actually sit and listen to them at all until they had about 8 hours of play time on them. I knew that these speakers would break in over around 200 hours, but I assumed that I would have at least some idea what they would sound like after 8 hours of play time. I was wrong.

After 8 hours I hated them. I tried them with my Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 solid state amp as well as my PrimaLuna Evo 300 tube amp trying to find a good pairing. I said on the other thread that I didn't want to go so far as to say I hated them - but really I was being polite. I hated them. In fact, I was pretty distressed that I had taken the time to build them and that I had convinced a friend to part ways with his hard earned money to purchase them. I disliked them so much that I was seriously considering calling Danny and canceling my order for the 2 sets of NX-Treme's that I've been waiting for since May. I spoke with my relative in Vietnam (for whom the 2nd pair is for) about the experience and to be honest, we were both pretty rattled by what I was hearing - especially since each NX-Treme utilizes 8 of the same drivers that the X-Statik uses for it's midrange and bass drivers.

What I heard after 8 hours was a very thin, weak midrange and an extremely bright and shouty top end. I actually described them to my relative as "unlistenable". To me - they absolutely were. I had so much listening fatigue after only a few songs that my ears physically hurt. I had a headache and there was pressure in my ears similar to severe elevation changes. In addition to the weak midrange and bright top end - they also didn't have the open and airy sound I was looking for. It wasn't ALL bad - I could tell some positive things right away as well - the bass was fantastic. Not that it had major grunt - but they played significantly lower than I was expecting and the bass was fast and tight - really, really nice. Also the dynamics were great, as was the detail.

On that other thread a few people mentioned that their experiences were very different from mine. Mike Lundy mentioned that the drivers needed at least 30-50 hours break in - and that the midrange would open up and even out the treble (spoiler - he was right). I had also come to the conclusion that I needed to let them burn in more, but I really didn't think they could improve to the point where I would like them.

Well now the speakers are at 50 hours of break in (roughly). The difference is dramatic. Absolutely, night and day dramatic. My comparisons will be with my Magnepan 1.7i's - which are my current speaker and my favorite speakers that I've personally owned. I'll get it out of the way right away - I still prefer the Maggie's. The maggie's produce a richness in the midrange - particularly with string instruments and vocals that is unlike anything else I've ever heard. It's intoxicating. The X-Statik's still sound a bit thin and a bit distant by comparison, but they sure do sound GOOD now. Also, the bright top end has been tamed very significantly. They no longer hurt my ears and I've had 3 hour listening sessions with them the past 2 nights. Last night I still ended up with a headache - but it took several hours. The bass has only gotten better. It's absolutely amazing how fantastic the bass is from these (relatively) small speakers. Furthermore, that open and airy quality that I was looking for is now present. It's not on the level of the maggie's - but it's much, much more holographic than a normal box speaker. I'd also say that the soundstage from the Maggie's is roughly the same width - but it's much taller. You feel like you're getting hit with a wall of sound - with the x-statik it's a little more subdued but still excellent. I did also find that the positioning of the X-Statik is more critical than it was with the Magnepan speakers. Even a few inches of movement made a big difference, and the amount of toe had a profound effect.

All in all the X-Statik is a very good speaker. It is especially great as a first "audiophile" speaker. I'm now happy that my friend put the money into these speakers. One of his favorite commercial brands used to be B&W. Given their lineup tends to be a bit bright (for my taste) this may be a great fit for him.

I guess I wanted to post this to give encouragement to anyone who builds the X-Statik and doesn't like them right away. I've experienced speaker break-in many times, but I've never experienced changes this dramatic. All I could find online were countless reviews which raved about them - nobody seemed to dislike them, and I couldn't find any description similar to what I'm describing here. I will say that I am very susceptible to listening fatigue and that I prefer a warm sounding rig for that reason. If someone is reading this in the future and hates their new X-Statik's - fear not. Just push play and don't come back to listen for about 50 hours - you'll get the good stuff."



Thank you for taking the time to write that, I needed to read something constructive and positive. I was despairing, angry, tired from all the work and extremely disillusioned.  I felt like the fool of the year award was on its way to me. Your words have given me the encouragement to expect a transformation and I appreciate that immensely. Audio miracle expected in 50 hours - Im a believer again !!! thanks

Tyson

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #18 on: 9 Sep 2021, 03:53 pm »
The good thing about very high quality audiophile parts (caps, inductors, drivers) is that they ultimately sound MUCH better than the generic level parts.  The downside is that burn in for the first 50 to 100 hours is brutal.

subsonic1050

Re: parallel wiring query
« Reply #19 on: 9 Sep 2021, 04:01 pm »

Thank you for taking the time to write that, I needed to read something constructive and positive. I was despairing, angry, tired from all the work and extremely disillusioned.  I felt like the fool of the year award was on its way to me. Your words have given me the encouragement to expect a transformation and I appreciate that immensely. Audio miracle expected in 50 hours - Im a believer again !!! thanks

Absolutely. I was also despairing. I think it would be a good idea if GR Research didn't only say that their stuff "needs break-in", but for people to be a little more honest about what they sound like before break-in. Some people have said theirs sounded great right from the moment they turned them on, and just improved over the break-in period. That was definitely not the case with the ones I built. What's not mentioned in that review I posted is how they continued to improve beyond the 50 hour mark. In the end, I actually preferred them over the Magnepan 1.7i's. My buddy just came this past weekend and we spent 2 solid days listening to them and he loved them as well. As long as you genuinely do not have a wiring issue, I promise they will come around. Please post back because I'd be very curious to see if your reaction was similar to mine - "This transformation is simply not possible".