active crossover setups

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jscottyk

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active crossover setups
« on: 6 Jun 2021, 08:43 pm »
Hello All. Long time reader, first time poster here at the Omega sub-forum.

How many here are using active crossovers with their Omega setups? I’ve been reading back through the posts and see that @roscoe65
@pstrisik are. Anyone else? Is there a popular “go to” unit? I see references to the Marchand XM66 and First Watt B4.

I have a set of Super 3i and a Rythmik F12. All in all, I am pleased with the setup but am trying to improve the integration. Active crossovers intrigue me but the configuration seems a step learning curve. And good reference(s) for a newbie of the topic?

jscottyk

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #1 on: 7 Jun 2021, 04:05 pm »
Howdy again.

Posting a few things on this topic I found that might be of interest to future crossover newbs like myself.

Anyone using subs with their Omega's and if yes, do you crossover your Omega's?
Crossovers Are Evil
Does an active crossover diminish sound quality?
   

For me, my next step will be a set of Harrison Labs FMOD. I’m thinking 70Hz is a good starting point to test with.
Harrison Labs FMOD


opnly bafld

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #2 on: 7 Jun 2021, 04:12 pm »
A second sub with each located near the Omegas IMO/E will help a lot with integration.

pstrisik

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #3 on: 7 Jun 2021, 04:35 pm »
I had a high quality Marchand active xover.  I realized that it was doing more harm than good.  After getting used to it, taking it out was like lifting the proverbial "veil".  I now run my SAMHOs full range and add powered woofers with signal level input direct from preamp.

FMODs are an inexpensive way to play with the active xover concept though.

Browsed through those links you posted.  Interesting to read some of my past posts and see how things have changed over the years!

jscottyk

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #4 on: 7 Jun 2021, 05:54 pm »
I had a high quality Marchand active xover.  I realized that it was doing more harm than good.  After getting used to it, taking it out was like lifting the proverbial "veil".  I now run my SAMHOs full range and add powered woofers with signal level input direct from preamp.

FMODs are an inexpensive way to play with the active xover concept though.

Browsed through those links you posted.  Interesting to read some of my past posts and see how things have changed over the years!

Love it. Fun to play earthworm with the archives and bring things back to the surface. One of the things I enjoy about this hobby is the continual learning. For me it's at a slower pace than the rest of my life, and very refreshing.

Now back to the topic. "I realized that it was doing more harm than good.  After getting used to it, taking it out was like lifting the proverbial "veil"." This to me is the fundamental question. Does freeing up the main speakers (and driving amp) of frequencies outside their range yield more benefit than the the loss that comes from adding something to the chain. For me there is not doubt the Rythmik sub is a worthwhile addition to my listening. My search is for the best integration with these Omega jewels that Louis is creating.

pstrisik

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #5 on: 7 Jun 2021, 07:12 pm »
My personal opinion is Rythmik F8s, or dual single driver version as I have, are easier to blend than bigger subs.  Rythmiks extend up to 200Hz (and down to 30Hz).  My Rythmik plate amps have a switch between 12 or 24db rolloff, low pass setting, volume, phase, and more.  In my previous setup, I ran these along with a pair of Rythmik F12s that go down to 14Hz!  They were easy to blend with the eights which were easy to blend with the SAMHOs.  A bit more of a challenge to blend F12s alone with the Omegas. 

Louis, however, designs his subs to mate with his speakers from the ground up, so there should be little obstacle there.

......Pete

roscoe65

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #6 on: 8 Jun 2021, 02:36 am »
Your biggest problem with trying to successfully integrate the Super 3’s and the 12” sub is filling in the midbass gap between the 4” drivers and the 12” subwoofer.  I use Rythmik F8’s and when used with my Super 3’s I need to bring the sub in at about 150 hz or so.  I can only do with with stereo subs to assure integration.  The dual-driver models have more midbass and can be more successfully crossed over lower.

The F8 driver is a really lightweight paper cone that blends well with the Omega.  The servo operation gets you better bass while allowing the lightweight driver to move quickly.

jscottyk

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #7 on: 8 Jun 2021, 01:20 pm »
Very interesting. You guys are describing exactly the situation I have been experiencing. I've plan to speak with Louis in the next couple days to discuss a set of CAM or SAM and this will be part of our discussion. Maybe a pair of Rythmik F8 dual subs or a pair of Omega DeepHemp8 along with CAM would be the ticket.

jscottyk

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #8 on: 8 Jun 2021, 10:07 pm »
Follow up question for @roscoe65 and @pstrisik. Are you using two F8s, or a single? If I am understanding you correctly, you are using two F8 units.

Reason I ask is looking at the back plate of an Omega DeepHemp 8 I can see how it would be easy to run two units. Looking at the back plate of the F8, it's less clear to me.

jscottyk

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #9 on: 8 Jun 2021, 10:43 pm »
Digging around the archives, I think I might have found my answer in another thread...

In a traditional 2 channel music system that does not output a single LFE channel (like a HT receiver does), you need two:  one for L preamp output, one for R.   

If using one sub, you run both signals into sub, and the sub's internal circuitry combines the signal.

If using two subs,  run L into one, R into the other.

h1pst3r88

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #10 on: 9 Jun 2021, 06:52 pm »
This thread is interesting to me as the new owner of a pair of Outlaw Super 3XRS speakers with Louis' built-in 8" front-facing hemp cone subwoofers.

First, these things are amazing with my Line Magnetic SET amp. However, I don't know where to set the crossover on the sub for optimal blending of the two drivers. I have it around 80hz now but I have the sub's level at just above zero. I am amazed at the bass with these settings but was going to email Louis for his recommendations and to get a better understanding of where I should set the phase pots on each speaker.

Thanks,

-Chris

pstrisik

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #11 on: 9 Jun 2021, 11:14 pm »
This thread is interesting to me as the new owner of a pair of Outlaw Super 3XRS speakers with Louis' built-in 8" front-facing hemp cone subwoofers.

First, these things are amazing with my Line Magnetic SET amp. However, I don't know where to set the crossover on the sub for optimal blending of the two drivers. I have it around 80hz now but I have the sub's level at just above zero. I am amazed at the bass with these settings but was going to email Louis for his recommendations and to get a better understanding of where I should set the phase pots on each speaker.

Thanks,

-Chris

My understanding is that you set phase by playing low frequency tone tracks and turn the phase setting to greatest volume at the listening position.  Helps to have two people.  It is room dependent.  No "correct" setting.

With regard to xover and gain settings, I set gain somewhere reasonable, then notch xover higher little by little - over several days.  At some point, I begin to hear congestion in mid-bass.  I then notch it just below that.  Same process with volume.  Notch it up until it is distracting or very low bass notes sound louder than mid-bass.  Then notch it below that.  Listening to bass runs helps with that.  Do the very low notes sound balanced with the higher bass notes?

You probably get the idea.  HTH.

......Pete

h1pst3r88

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #12 on: 10 Jun 2021, 01:52 am »
Thanks, Pete, that's really helpful!

-Chris

roscoe65

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #13 on: 10 Jun 2021, 12:59 pm »
I would add that if you are incurring the expense of stereo servo subwoofers (>$2k for stereo F8’s) I would also spring for a calibrated microphone (<$100 at PE) and an inexpensive RTA app.  It will pay for itself in time and relief of frustration.  A quick RTA reading will allow you to quickly narrow down your adjustment range.  It will also illustrate challenges presented by your room that may not be addressable by subwoofer adjustments and need to be managed acoustically.  A big advantage of using measurements is the ability to quickly associate sonic changes with frequency response changes and to understand how adjustments to level, phase, slope and crossover point affect measurements and sound.

Peter’s process is spot on.  If you are using measurements, my approach would be to work with one channel at a time and then make final adjustments with both channels in operation.  You may need to supplement crossover adjustments with positioning and room treatment. 

h1pst3r88

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Re: active crossover setups
« Reply #14 on: 14 Jun 2021, 12:14 am »
Thanks, Roscoe!

Acoustic treatment is the next step, so the recommendation of measuring equipment is timely. Thanks again.

-Chris