SP1.7 Audio delay

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James Tanner

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #20 on: 30 Jul 2005, 04:13 pm »
The SP1.7 has a 232 port now so the backboard will be the same. The difference will be that software updates can be done through the R232.
It will also allow Firmware updates through the SPDIF.

james

jethro

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #21 on: 30 Jul 2005, 07:45 pm »
James,

Does this mean software updates will be available as a DVD that we simply have to play thru a SPDIF connection to the SP-1.7 ?

Also, this is a holiday weekend. What are you doing working !

Thanks.

James Tanner

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #22 on: 30 Jul 2005, 08:08 pm »
You will just download a file off our website and then use the R232 to update the software.

I know - holidays - I guess I'm totally addicted to this.

james

musicology

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #23 on: 30 Jul 2005, 11:43 pm »
James,

Do you have a tentative or fixed date for the new upgrade/update?
Also, will the unit have to b returned to Bryston?

jethro

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #24 on: 30 Jul 2005, 11:47 pm »
Quote from: James Tanner
The SP1.7 has a 232 port now so the backboard will be the same. The difference will be that software updates can be done through the R232.
It will also allow Firmware updates through the SPDIF.

james


james,

Is the SPDIF used just to update the firmware, that currently is updated by replacing a PAL chip (or whatever they are called these days) ? If so how does one do this ?

Thanks.

James Tanner

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #25 on: 31 Jul 2005, 12:19 am »
Yes the SPDIF is just firmware

james

diabolik

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #26 on: 26 Oct 2005, 09:45 am »
Hi James,
any update?
Thanks

James Tanner

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« Reply #27 on: 26 Oct 2005, 11:20 am »
Quote from: diabolik
Hi James,
any update?
Thanks


Hi,  

Do you mean is the SP2 ready?


james

James Tanner

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« Reply #28 on: 26 Oct 2005, 01:37 pm »
Hi,

If you mean delay - I know we can do that but it will not be in the first  software release.

I do not hear about delay issues anymore - any input?

james

ScottMayo

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #29 on: 26 Oct 2005, 02:21 pm »
Quote from: James Tanner
Hi,

If you mean delay - I know we can do that but it will not be in the first  software release.

I do not hear about delay issues anymore - any input?

james


I missed something. Which delay issue?

1. SP2 isn't out yet. Yes, that's a bad delay. :-)

2. SP1.7 allows you to delay individual channels, for speaker distances. That's a good thing. I wish it were adjustable in finer increments, and I wish I could set speaker pairs at the same time ("right and left main, both 14ft, 6in")

3. The SP1.7 is really, really slow in responding to commands from the remote or the RS-232. And glacially slow if OSD is on. That's a serious delay problem for us automaters, and for anyone who wants to flip through various settings while trying to remember what the last setting sounded like.

nicolasb

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #30 on: 26 Oct 2005, 02:29 pm »
Quote from: ScottMayo
I missed something. Which delay issue?

I assume this is referring to the ability (or lack of it) to add a global delay of several hundred milliseconds to all channels.

Quote from: James Tanner
I do not hear about delay issues anymore - any input?

It's very much still an issue, and likely to become steadily more of an issue over the next year.

In Britain, at least.

The reason for this is that Britain is finally, nearly 15 years after almost every other country in the western world  :roll:, going to offer high definition TV services. This means that large, potentially high-definition displays like plasma, LCD, DLP, SXRD, DILA, SED, OLED, etc. are about to take off in a big way, and direct-view CRT televisions are about to start dying a slow death.

(I suspect a similar thing may happen elsewhere, with the advent of BluRay or HD-DVD disc players, although obviously it has, to a degree, been happening for many years in less technologically backward countries like the US and Japan).

Since all of these display technologies are inherently progressive, this means that a steadily increasing proportion of all newly purchased display devices are going to need a deinterlacer - either external, or built-in. That, in turn, means a need for a global audio delay to keep the sound and picture in synch.

Before very long, almost every single user of an SP2 is going to need this feature, because almost anyone who can afford an SP2 will have a non-CRT display. (I've no doubt CRT front projection will carry on for a while longer, but the lack of HDCP-compliant digital inputs on most CRT devices will limit that).

James Tanner

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« Reply #31 on: 26 Oct 2005, 09:32 pm »
HI Nicolasb,

So in my case I have a Sim2 DLP prjector as well as a Sharp LCD - widscreen TV and in Canada we get 720P and 1080I broadcasts all the time - especially in sports.
I do not seem to have any sync issues and I certainly do not have complaints from customers world wide on this issue.
You see all that changing though as of 1080P? - or is it a European issue with Pal brodcasts as opposed to NTSC in North America.

james

nicolasb

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« Reply #32 on: 27 Oct 2005, 09:48 am »
Well, no, what causes sync issues is usually conversion from interlaced to progressive scan. A lot of people who have been watching DVDs on non-progressive displays are going to be switching to progressive ones, which will introduce deinterlacing delays they weren't seeing before.

You probably don't get this on 1080i material right now, because virtually nothing is actually capable of deinterlacing 1080i correctly anyway. As and when we start to see proper per-pixel motion-compensated deinterlacing of 1080i, you'll have the same issue with 1080i sources.

James Tanner

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« Reply #33 on: 27 Oct 2005, 11:14 am »
So why does it not seem to show up at 730P?

Also what delay do you think would be rquired - 25-100 Millisecond? I have been told up to 15 milliseconds is not an issue for the ear/brain.

james

Jason Nugent

SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #34 on: 27 Oct 2005, 11:51 am »
Disclaimer:  I'm not an engineer :)

Wouldn't most devices like DVD players which have built-in de-interlacers and upsamplers to convert 480i to either 480p or 720p also compensate for any delay?  My Pioneer DV-59AVi outputs at 720p over an HDMI connection. You'd think that the video and audio signals leaving the player would be in sync and the DVD player would have to be smart enough to fix any issues.   If this was a big issue, wouldn't 99.9999% of the people out there who own deinterlacing DVD players (and who don't also have cool sound processors with delay capabilities) be complaining about sync issues?

I'm not sure what the effect of an outboard scaler would be,  though, like the iScan VP30 (due out this fall).  I could see how devices further down the video stream could add delay and need compensation.

James Tanner

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« Reply #35 on: 27 Oct 2005, 12:14 pm »
Hi Jason,

Good questions - I too am trying to educate myself on this and the only time I was aware of any sync issues was in the very early days of Plasma monitors where they would lag about 25 milliseconds.

james

ScottMayo

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #36 on: 27 Oct 2005, 12:38 pm »
Quote from: James Tanner
Hi Jason,

Good questions - I too am trying to educate myself on this and the only time I was aware of any sync issues was in the very early days of Plasma monitors where they would lag about 25 milliseconds.

james


It's up to the source to provide synced media - any DVD or cable box that's putting out skewed stuff, or any external video processor that doesn't also hold up the audio to keep sync - is simply broken.

That said, the SP1.7 can delay channels, can't it? Lie about the speaker distance, except for the sub. Faked right, it ought to delay everything to match the sub's timing. Yes, this will dicker with the phase of the lowest octave, and explosions will start rumbing 15ms too early, and yes it's dirty, but for movies I doubt it matters, and as quick hacks go, it might get you fixed until the more general problem is solved.

James Tanner

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #37 on: 27 Oct 2005, 12:54 pm »
Hi Scott,

Yes the SP1.7 allows for delay on all channels including the sub.

james

nicolasb

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #38 on: 27 Oct 2005, 02:07 pm »
Quote from: James Tanner
So why does it not seem to show up at 730P?

720p is already progressive! What (usually) takes the most time is taking a non-progressive (interlaced) signal and converting it to progressive.

Quote
Also what delay do you think would be rquired - 25-100 Millisecond? I have been told up to 15 milliseconds is not an issue for the ear/brain.

If the maximum delay were 15ms, no one would care. :)  But it can be a lot longer - I believe anything up to 300 or 400ms in extreme cases.

It's normally of the order of "a few video frames", so 100-200ms, maybe. This sort of delay is necessary because the deinterlacing circuit has to actually compare 2 or 3 successive frames (more, sometimes) in order to figure out which deinterlacing strategy to use. If the original source material is progressive (e.g. cinema films) and all the flags are set correctly on the disc, it's a bit easier; but often the flags aren't set correctly, and deinterlacing something that was interlaced at source (i.e. shot on video) is a pain under any circumstances.

Quote from: Jason Nugent
Wouldn't most devices like DVD players which have built-in de-interlacers and upsamplers to convert 480i to either 480p or 720p also compensate for any delay?

You'd think so, wouldn't you?  :roll:  In reality, some do, some don't. My Arcam DV27A does have a global delay setting, but its predecessor, the DV27, didn't - despite having (for its time) exceptional progressive scan output (using the Sil 503 board). Cheaper players often don't have that feature. (And even cheaper ones have no scaling or deinterlacing ability anyway).

And it's more complicated than that, because anybody who really cares about video quality and has the money to afford a high end system will be using an external video scaler. Most displays like plasmas or LCDs have stupid resolutions like 1366x768, so there has to be some rescaling of the signal somewhere along the line, regardless of the source resolution, and a good external scaler will always do a better job than what's built into the screen. But most video scalers annoyingly do not possess the ability to buffer a digital sound input and relay it on with a delay added. So you have to have some external means of synching the sound and picture.

The difference in video quality from using an external video processor can be quite dramatic, for a variety of reasons, not just better quality scaling and deinterlacing. For example, you can use the scaler to compensate for white-balance drift in the screen itself, or you can have a DVD player fitted with an SDI output, feed that to the scaler, and then feed the screen via DVI or HDMI - this circumvents an unnecessary D/A A/D conversion stage, and also (unlike taking HDMI from the player, which not many players support yet anyway) bypasses the chroma upsampling stage, thus (among other things) neutralising the chroma bug (if the player suffers from it).

The situation with Home Theatre PCs (used as either a DVD player, or a scaler/deinterlacer, or both) is also far from clear-cut.

Finally you can end up with a situation where the display does its own scaling and deinterlacing, and also adds its own audio delay - but only if you use the built-in speakers. So long as you use the TV speakers for sound, everything is in synch, but if you use an external sound system, the sound is ahead of the picture. I suspect a lot of people upgrading to plasmas, LCDs and DLPs are going to experience this.

diabolik

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SP1.7 Audio delay
« Reply #39 on: 21 Nov 2005, 10:39 am »
Hi James,
Im now confused. I understood from your responses at the start of this thread that there were plans to include a global delay for sync issues with video.
I has been explained quite well here that there are many people here in the UK that have audio delay issues (not just with the SP1.7). For this reason a lot of manufacturers include this delay option in both DVD players and processors/amps.
Are you now saying that this will NOT be included in the new firmware release for the SP1.7?

Thanks