Apollo: placement recommendations

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SoundSound

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Apollo: placement recommendations
« on: 23 Mar 2021, 05:08 pm »
Hello everybody! :)

From your experience, what listening distance, distance between the speakers, distance from the side and back walls would you recommend, please? :wink:
And, of course, a picture is worth a thousand words... :)

Please chime in! :D

aldcoll

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #1 on: 23 Mar 2021, 06:43 pm »
How about some room information?  And a picture or two wouldn't hurt.

I had them in a 22 by 26 with vaulted ceiling..  About 5 ft. Off the back wall and toed in a bit.  Seating was about 9 ft from speakers. 

Alan

rbbert

Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #2 on: 23 Mar 2021, 09:04 pm »
Wouldn't it make more sense to start with one of several "tried and true" methods of speaker placement (e.g., Wilson, Get Better Sound, Cardas, etc) rather than asking an open ended question with no good answer?  Too many differences between rooms to generalize about placement.

advanced101

Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #3 on: 24 Mar 2021, 02:27 pm »
I use the "Master Set" guidance, you can google and find lots of articles.

My room is about 36' long, 14' wide, 9' high. 

Speakers are 5' from the front wall (Front front baffle), 9' Tweeter to Tweeter, 2.5' from Tweeter to sidewall.  I sit approx. 11' from the speakers.

My Orpheus required quite a bit of toe-in but I would expect the Zeus to require less.  It is helpful to have a friend help move the speakers while you listen.  Takes a few hours to get an approximation then I usually tweak for a while later.

It is also important to find the best seating position.  In my room, which is luckily dedicated, there is a sweet spot where bass sounds nearly perfect.  I have a bit of a 50 Hz vertical room mode, can't do much for that except change listening height.

Good Luck.

SoundSound

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #4 on: 24 Mar 2021, 05:11 pm »
Thank you very kindly for your most appreciated input, dear experts. :)

The designer notes (please see at https://www.daedalusaudio.com/apollo-speaker): “The Apollo’s three way design functions as a point source for imaging…”
A million dollar question for me: at what distance do Apollo’s start to act as such? :scratch:

As a rear ported design, they certainly require some space from the front wall. What minimal distance would you recommend, please? :scratch:

Would you consider 1 ft distance from the side walls sufficient, please? :scratch:

As always, please chime in! :)

rbbert

Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #5 on: 24 Mar 2021, 05:45 pm »
Very few rooms or speakers will work at their best only 1 ft from the side walls.
Are you interested in providing us with the dimensions of your room?
I can say that the Apollo 11's are less sensitive to positioning than any of the many other speakers I have owned (planars, electrostatics, all cones, hybrids), and I find them to work best for me with minimal or no toe-in.

Before you think about speaker positioning you should determine your best seating position using one or more of the methods I mentioned before (Wilson, Get Better Sound, Cardas, etc)

jriggy

Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #6 on: 24 Mar 2021, 07:14 pm »
Assuming your room can accommodate this, start out at LEAST 3ft out, and how ‘bout 9 to 9.5ft apart and 10 to 11ft back for listening position. Or equilateral triangle...but I personally prefer a bit more away for the seat.

rbbert

Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #7 on: 24 Mar 2021, 08:05 pm »
FWIW, most room placement processes start with finding the best seating position.

dodgealum

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #8 on: 24 Mar 2021, 08:12 pm »
Apollo owner here. Have had them set up in three different rooms: Room 1: 13 X 17 X 8 set up on long wall. Room 2: 11 X 17 X 7.5 set up on short wall. Room 3: 26 X 15 X 16 (vaulted ceiling) https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3224 set up on short wall (see system profile for pic). Here is what I can tell you:

1. I've owned three pair of Daedalus now. They seem to be less fickle about set up than most.
2. Talk to Lou. He has probably heard them set up in a dozen rooms since he brings them to shows. Many of these rooms have limited space so often the speakers end up close to the rear and side walls. That is how I heard the Apollo's the first time at CAF 2018.
3. The aperiodic vent seems to diminish the need to place the speakers far from the back wall. Much less air moving through the ports. That said, like most speakers, the farther out into the room the more realistic the stage will be. In Rooms 1 & 2 the speakers were 12-15" from the rear baffle to the wall behind. Sounded good. In Room 3 the speakers are 30" from the rear baffle to the wall behind. Sound better!
4. Like most speakers, the greater the distance from the side wall reflection point the better. In Room 2 this was only about 1.5 feet. In Rooms 1 and 3 the distance is more than 3 feet. More is better but Room 2 sounded darn good.
5. Room behind the listening chair matters. In Room 1 my head was against the wall behind. Bass was not as clear, had some lumps, more perceived bass than in Room 2 or 3. In Rooms 2 and 3 my head was 1/3 into the room and at least 6 feet from the wall behind. Bass is much smoother, cleaner, less perceived bass but actually tighter and deeper.
6. In all three Rooms I used the "Get Better Sound" triangle recommendation (distance between speakers is 83% of distance to ears). This has worked well for me over the years. Minimal toe in since the baffle is angled.

Hope this helps!

dodgealum

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #9 on: 26 Mar 2021, 03:17 pm »
Sound--I realized I did not address your million dollar question:

A million dollar question for me: at what distance do Apollo’s start to act as [a point source]?

So here again I would defer to Lou. My DA-1.1's had a driver array that covered nearly the length of the baffle and so there was a minimum distance that you needed to honor in order to give them the opportunity to cohere. It was some time ago but I believe around 6-7 feet was sufficient. With the clustered driver array of the Apollo's, very little distance is necessary and as such they are much more appropriate for a near-field type setup but will also fill the room when seated further away. I would imagine the Apollo 11 behave more like my DA-1.1s in this regard. I hope this helps.

Jarbs

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #10 on: 27 Mar 2021, 05:01 pm »
I have Apollo 11’s. My ear to tweeter distance is 12-4”. With this MTTM array I’d say 10 ft. Is the minimum distance. Inside this the overall results may not be optimal.

The Apollo’s drivers should integrate much closer per Mark’s comments above.

SoundSound

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #11 on: 27 Mar 2021, 08:12 pm »
Thank you very kindly for your most appreciated help, dear experts. :)

Are you interested in providing us with the dimensions of your room?
By not providing any "boundary conditions" I was hoping for a wider spectrum of responses... Anyway, here we go: my listening room is only about 24' x 12' (8' ceilings). By positioning the speakers along the shorter wall (let us say, 3' - 4' from it) and 1' - 2' from the respective side wall, I can establish my listening position 8' - 10' from each speaker (thus forming classical equilateral triangle). :scratch:

... 10 to 11ft back for listening position ...but I personally prefer a bit more away for the seat.
10' would be close to my limit, probably... :scratch:

1. I've owned three pair of Daedalus now. They seem to be less fickle about set up than most.
3. ... That said, like most speakers, the farther out into the room the more realistic the stage will be. In Rooms 1 & 2 the speakers were 12-15" from the rear baffle to the wall behind. Sounded good. In Room 3 the speakers are 30" from the rear baffle to the wall behind. Sound better!
4. Like most speakers, the greater the distance from the side wall reflection point the better. In Room 2 this was only about 1.5 feet. In Rooms 1 and 3 the distance is more than 3 feet. More is better but Room 2 sounded darn good.
5. Room behind the listening chair matters. In Room 1 my head was against the wall behind. Bass was not as clear, had some lumps, more perceived bass than in Room 2 or 3. In Rooms 2 and 3 my head was 1/3 into the room and at least 6 feet from the wall behind. Bass is much smoother, cleaner, less perceived bass but actually tighter and deeper.
6. In all three Rooms I used the "Get Better Sound" triangle recommendation (distance between speakers is 83% of distance to ears). This has worked well for me over the years. Minimal toe in since the baffle is angled.
I am just in a small condo, guys! I simply cannot see how I can accommodate the above recommendations... Just one option comes into consideration: 4' from the back wall, 2' from the side walls gives me 8' between the speakers, and, therefore, listening distance should be about 9.65' with at least 8 feet from the wall behind... :scratch:

... My DA-1.1's had a driver array that covered nearly the length of the baffle and so there was a minimum distance that you needed to honor in order to give them the opportunity to cohere. It was some time ago but I believe around 6-7 feet was sufficient. With the clustered driver array of the Apollo's, very little distance is necessary and as such they are much more appropriate for a near-field type setup but will also fill the room when seated further away.
Do I understand correctly, around 6-7 feet (or, quite possibly, even less?) should be sufficient for the Apollo drivers to cohere, please? :scratch:

I have Apollo 11’s. My ear to tweeter distance is 12-4”. With this MTTM array I’d say 10 ft. Is the minimum distance. Inside this the overall results may not be optimal.
The Apollo’s drivers should integrate much closer per Mark’s comments above.
I am lost: is it 6' - 7' or more like 10' for the Apollo drivers to "integrate"? As you can tell, I am not a Guru, and need all the help I can get... :scratch:

And now a million dollar question for me: can my smallish room even accommodate the beautiful (that is how the "boss" commented on them, and this happened only once before when she admired the woodwork of Prometeo's from Xavian) Apollo’s?

Any "professional" reviews you could please recommend me to see (in addition to the one published in Part-Time Audiophile in 2019)? :)

As always, please chime in! :)

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #12 on: 28 Mar 2021, 03:27 am »
hi SoundSound,

Lots of questions and I'l only pipe in on a couple.

The Apollo like the Muse will almost work as a nearfield monitor. 6-7 ft will actually work, though they also will fill a larger space, especially the Apollo.

The Apollo11 needs more room for a coherent sound, 8 ft or more is good.

As to your million dollar question, yes the Apollo will work in that room.

Here is the most recent review, though we have made improvements since then.
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/10/27/daedalus-audio-apollo-speakers-review/

btw we are working on a limited production schedule this year and are nearing capacity for 2021. We are a small shop and with my focus on launching the Pacific Audio Fest this year the speaker production must be curtailed. I refuse to sacrifice quality so that is our only option.

mresseguie

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #13 on: 28 Mar 2021, 04:13 am »
Your listening room is only a little shorter than mine, which is 29’L x 14’W x 8’H. My Apollos are 5’ from the front wall; 2+ feet from the sides, and my listening position is ~10’ from the speakers. After nearly 4 years, I’m still giddy with delight at the music that flows from these wonderful speakers.

This pair has been in 4(?) different rooms since I bought them from Lou - my home, Aldcoll’s (as mentioned above), a temporary apartment living room, and a buddy’s dedicated music room in Seattle. Despite considerable differences in room sizes and acoustics, the Apollos had no trouble delivering wonderful music.

Michael
 

SoundSound

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #14 on: 29 Mar 2021, 06:21 pm »
Thank you very kindly, dear experts! :)
... The Apollo like the Muse will almost work as a nearfield monitor. 6-7 ft will actually work, though they also will fill a larger space, especially the Apollo.
... As to your million dollar question, yes the Apollo will work in that room.
This is an excellent news indeed! :)

btw we are working on a limited production schedule this year and are nearing capacity for 2021. We are a small shop and with my focus on launching the Pacific Audio Fest this year the speaker production must be curtailed. I refuse to sacrifice quality so that is our only option.
Exceptional quality is certainly your trademark, and we, your potential customers, expect nothing else from Daedalus. Thank you for your great work, Lou! :)
I understand you are extremely busy (PAF Show Director!) preparing for the event, but perhaps you could please comment if there are any plans to upgrade 4.5" midrange driver in your excellent Apollo series? :scratch:

... After nearly 4 years, I’m still giddy with delight at the music that flows from these wonderful speakers.
This pair has been in 4(?) different rooms since I bought them from Lou - my home, Aldcoll’s (as mentioned above), a temporary apartment living room, and a buddy’s dedicated music room in Seattle. Despite considerable differences in room sizes and acoustics, the Apollos had no trouble delivering wonderful music.
I hope next year, Michael, I will enjoy my Apollos as much as you do! :)

Last but not least, dear friends, please keep it safe and stay healthy to enjoy our wonderful hobby for years to come! :)

Daedalus Audio

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #15 on: 31 Mar 2021, 03:32 am »

"I understand you are extremely busy (PAF Show Director!) preparing for the event, but perhaps you could please comment if there are any plans to upgrade 4.5" midrange driver in your excellent Apollo series? :scratch:
I hope next year, Michael, I will enjoy my Apollos as much as you do! :)"



I guess the cat's out of the bag,eh?

We are working on the crossover/cabinet changes for a new larger midrange driver in the Apollo series. We plan to debut this at the Pacific Audio Fest with our Zeus V.x. btw we will show with the VAC Signature 150i and the Lampizator Pacific DAC, don't miss that room! :thumb:
I know people will ask but because of the physical differences in drivers there is no way to update older systems. BUT, we have recently completed a midrange driver upgrade that does retrofit. This upgrade is now in use in all of our Athena Series (8"woofer) systems and can retrofit in older Apollo systems. The new 4.5" mid is a bit smoother and cleaner than the old one but where it really shines is in being more phase correct across the bandwidth. It just sounds.... "right".

Because of time constraints with the show this year we are limiting production, and for now I am holding to our prices even with the new drivers. These and the crossovers as well as the engineering are expensive so later in the year you can expect a price increase. I hate to do that so soon after the recent (modest) increase, but the cost of the product has gone up with these improvements. I hope everyone understands.
We just dialed in the standard Muse today with the new midrange and it is wonderful!!!!  Hopefully we will also have those in a different room at Pacific Audio Fest, there is interest so I think that will happen.
thanks for all your support and I hope to see many of you at PAF this summer :)

audiotom

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Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #16 on: 7 Apr 2021, 01:53 am »
Apollo 11s

Room 27 x 14.5 x8’

Speakers on long wall
3.5 feet out.  Over 8 ft to side wall

Nothing between the speakers for maximum imaging

Speakers are 9 1/2’ apart tweeter to tweeter

Ear to tweeter 10 1/2 - 11’

Lou’s built in toe in plus just a smidge

zmikem53

Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #17 on: 10 Apr 2021, 12:59 pm »
Athena V2
Room 26 x 19’ x 13’ ceiling. Open to other rooms
4’ out into room, sidewalls min 7’ away
Spkrs 8’ apart
Sitting 7.5’  ear to driver
Kind of nearfield arranged to keep the room anomalies under control..  as I don’t want to dampen the room.
These are relatively easy to setup compared to my VR-7’s, the Daedalus were a dream !  they can fill a large
Area, even with just 18 watts.. 

zmikem53

Re: Apollo: placement recommendations
« Reply #18 on: 10 Apr 2021, 01:12 pm »
In addition to the above, I would like to introduce myself. my name is Mike and I have been an avid music lover all my life.
Been doing the audiophile thing for over 50 years now. I’m retired and love to listen and tweak !
I downsized some years ago when I retired and started over with a more sensible sized system that would give me a musical “experience “.
After a few attempts, I came across Daedalus and acquired a pair of Athena speakers.. I wanted full range that was also efficient so I could
Use low power amps. My previous setup was Vonschweikert VR7’s with BAT VK75SE monos. I wanted something requiring less space, maintenance and less heat!
Currently running A digital front end into a Schiit Yggdrasil > Pass XP22 preamp > First Watt SIT-3
very happy with this combo in all aspects .