[doug s.]

Doug,

OK, You're cool. No offense taken.  And you're correct, our speakers are not inexpensive.  But...and there's always a catch, there's a lot of technology crammed in those suckers.  Let's see...constrained-layer damping of the outer walls, transmission-line diffuser/damping chambers, internal damping foam & fiber-fill,  1.5 inch walls on all six sides, mitered corners and corner blocks, a very complex crossover assembly with many expensive parts, killer drivers AND our waveguide.  That baby alone  ...

hey bob - i agree w/most everyting ya said here - which yust proves what ya prewiously said is wrong, about good dynamic-driver speakers being a bargain!       sorry! i can' help it!  it really *is* funny!  

bottom line, imo, is that yure gonna have to step up to the plate if ya wanna get good sound.  sure, ya can get "good sound" on the cheap, especially if ya diy, or shop the used market, but, re: speakers, anyway, it's my opinion that truly s.o.t.a. sound ain't gonna come cheap, regardless of whether your preference is ribbon, planar, dynamic, plasma, or whatever...

regards,

doug s.

[Aether Audio]

Doug,

bottom line, imo, is that yure gonna have to step up to the plate if ya wanna get good sound.

You're darn right. Anytime you want something that is a cut above the mass marketed technology offerings, you're going to have to pay more.  All I'm saying with regards to dynamic vs. planar (OK John?) designs is that at a given price point, if both designs are optimized to their maximum potential, the dynamic will more often than not win out.  

Sure, our stuff's not cheap, but I'll put any model of ours up against any other manufacturer's - not at the same price point but at least TWICE THE PRICE of ours.  Especially a PLANAR design.  We might not win in the end but I'll bet we send their guys home scratching their heads.

-Bob

[doug s.]

Doug,

Quote:
bottom line, imo, is that yure gonna have to step up to the plate if ya wanna get good sound.


You're darn right. Anytime you want something that is a cut above the mass marketed technology offerings, you're going to have to pay more. All I'm saying with regards to dynamic vs. planar (OK John?) designs is that at a given price point, if both designs are optimized to their maximum potential, the dynamic will more often than not win out.

Sure, our stuff's not cheap, but I'll put any model of ours up against any other manufacturer's - not at the same price point but at least TWICE THE PRICE of ours. Especially a PLANAR design. We might not win in the end but I'll bet we send their guys home scratching their heads. icon_cool.gif

-Bob

bob, that's why i like the audiocircle forums.  i know at least seven speaker mfr's that would be happy to take ya up on yer challenge - and *these* are the ones that have forums here!     makes things nice for us consumers!  

regards,

doug s.

[lonewolfny42]

Hello Bob,

And just think, all those reviews except the ones from last weekend were based on the old $20.00 tweeter. Got a lot of mileage out of that little sucker but alas…I had to lay him to rest. If only all those folks had heard our stuff with the new tweeter. Well, I guess they can as we offer it as an upgrade. And we didn’t raise the price of the product line one penny because of it.. Yeah, I’d call that value.

[/list:u]

Can you post up a little more info about getting that new tweeter installed. Would we have to ship the speakers to you ? Would the dealers that carry the line be able to install ? Thanks for any info !! [/list:u]
Chris[/list:u]

[John Ashman]

bob, that's why i like the audiocircle forums.  i know at least seven speaker mfr's that would be happy to take ya up on yer challenge - and *these* are the ones that have forums here!     makes things nice for us consumers!  

Hey, if we can work something out, maybe I can or I can get NHT or a local dealer to bring a pair on NHT Xds to the party too - that could be fun!    I'll give you the self-powered Xd speakers at $6K vs the $6K Continuum 2.5s with unlimited choice of amplification.  Maybe at Indianapolis CEDIA in September?

[doug s.]

bob, that's why i like the audiocircle forums.  i know at least seven speaker mfr's that would be happy to take ya up on yer challenge - and *these* are the ones that have forums here!     makes things nice for us consumers!  

Hey, if we can work something out, maybe I can or I can get NHT or a local dealer to bring a pair on NHT Xds to the party too - that could be fun!    I'll give you the self-powered Xd speakers at $6K vs the $6K Continuum 2.5s with unlimited choice of amplification.  Maybe at Indianapolis CEDIA in September?

who knows - mebbe bob would also be interested in using a deqx w/*his* speakers...

doug s.

[John Ashman]

Rumor has it that he already *is* going to DEQX his speakers  

Should be interesting

[reefrus]

Can you post up a little more info about getting that new tweeter installed. Would we have to ship the speakers to you ? Would the dealers that carry the line be able to install ? Thanks for any info !!  

Hi Chris,
No, you don't need to ship the speakers back. It's drop in mod if you handy enough. Although, a dealer should be able to perform this task for the customer.

who knows - mebbe bob would also be interested in using a deqx w/*his* speakers...

doug s.

Hi Doug,
Yes, It's in the process according to Bob.
He is such a truthful engineer and already looking for the next task to play(deqx) after he modify the new tweeter for the speakers. Just stay tuned.

[Aether Audio]

John,

That would Rock!  I don't believe we'll be "officially" attending CEDIA this year (DARN IT, we got to get out to these shows!) because we're still up to our necks with all the issues pertaining to the new facility.  We're still bringing in new equipment and doing ineternal construction.  Propabaly tie us up for the next 6 months anyway.  Man, I'll be glad when all this setup crap is DONE!  I have to engineer new products at the same time I have to oversee all the production and the facility improvements.

A-n-y-w-a-y...we could probably make time to come down and see you guys.  Just e-mail or PM me and maybe we can set something up.

And on another note...I ain't telling no more secrets!  You knuckleheads run right out and tell the whole world!  It's OK Just kidding.  But yes, NOW THAT THE WHOLE FRICK'N WORLD KNOWS, I might as well spill the beans.  We are going to experiment with the DEQX.  But I must state that we are not ready to commit to it until I am able to verify that it truly does offer a valuable improvement over the passive crossover.

Oh, so you want to know what I "suspect" it will do?  Well, let's put it this way.  I think our passive crossover parts inventory will get a lot smaller after the word gets out.  Or if parts inventory does grow, it will be for products other than the Millennial Reference series!  I relish the thought of it...ahhh, full amplifier damping available to the driver voice-coils.  Baby, that's the ticket.  Just ask any Pro-Sound guy.  Multi-amp systems are the way to go in a true high-end sound system.  I've never recommended it specifically for high-end home audio though - not because it wouldn't improve performance in some areas but because true high-end quality electronic crossovers for home use are not very plentiful.  A lousy line-level device with a lot of filters in it (as an electronic crossover would have) would do more harm than good.  Most of the pro gear is great for live sound apps. but they typically don't have the finesse a home system requires.

But the DEQX?  Well, I think "that's a horse of a different color."  Not only that, we'll be able to shut-up the 1st order crossover network guys.  Finally our systems will have the one elusive quality that is their only real "claim to fame" - PERFECT PHASE RESPONSE!  And we WON'T have the extreme  dispersion lobing errors theirs has either!  All you guys that have heard our gear and think that they have fantastic transient response, speed and dynamics - as they are now with our passive networks, all I can say is "you ain't heard nut'n yet!"

Oh yeah, here's a little "icing on the cake."  How's a 500 Hz crossover sound? We could crossover there now but I don't want to run the risk of stressing the tweeter with too much 250-125 Hz energy.  With 100+ dB/Octave crossover slopes - no problem-o!!!  There isn't a midrange driver (cone, planar, you name it!)in the world that can compete with the speed and lack of break-up modes that a 1 inch diaphragm can deliver - as long as it's not excursion limited, that is...

Did I ever mention that our new tweeter loaded in our waveguide has 11 dB of acoustic gain around the 1kHz region?  That equates to a reduction of electical drive power to 1/13th that of which would otherwise be required to achieve the same SPL!  That's headroomm folks!  And the gain is still 10 db at 700Hz!  That's how we do it.  Our tweeter never gets anywhere near being excursion limited.  Proof?  Well, I'd have to produce the graphs which I haven't converted yet but let's put it this way.  We've never had a tweeter failure!  That's what you otherwise get when they're over-driven/over-excurted.

My "kids" on DEQX ??? - Y-e-a-h baby!!!  What do you suppose would happen if you take an extremely linear system with +/- 1 dB of frequency variation and that has almost no distortion to begin with, has extreme dynamic capabilty, has smooth & controlled dispersion and offers full bandwidth reproduction - and then correct digitally for what few minor errors it has left??? Yep, that's my drug of choice.  Just gotta make sure it ain't "cut" with no bad stuff first, before I put the family on it.  If it is clean dope?  Well, makes me want to thank NHT   for giving Kim the support he needed to bring that device to market.  Uhhh, it may have been to their own un-doing... but hey, that's another story.  Sorry.

Well, that's the poop for now - gotta go.

Take care,:)
-Bob

[John Ashman]

Well Bob, if nothing else, you're a bubbling spring of enthusiasm!

[NealH]

Great read Bob and thanks for bringing us up to date a bit on your current development endeavors.  Your enthusiasm is becoming addictive.   And your journalistic skills are excellent.

[Aether Audio]

John & Mr. hood,

Thanks guys!  Yeah, I'm probably a little "over the top" right now but I can't help it.  I just can't get over how much difference this new tweeter has made!  I'll tell you, it's been a real learning experience. In fact, I'd like to pass along a little bit of what it has done and the implications to speakers and systems in general.  

My partner Karsten (in Denmark) is quite an avid audiophile and has a VERY good ear.  He had a pair of Belles Reference 150 monoblocks cryo-treated and used them as part of his reference system.  This system also included a pair of our Continuum A.D.'s (with the old tweeters)as the main speakers.  As time went on he began to feel as if the 150's were too "detailed" and "edgy" sounding and ultimately stopped using them (I forget what amps he switched to after that).  Reefrus had a pair of the same cryo'd 150's on his Revelations (with the same old tweeters) and sold them partly because of the same issue (in the end, maybe that was an "Ooops" Steve).

Since then, Karsten's received a pair of Revelations with the new tweeter (the ones he's demonstrated at the last two shows in Denmark).  He has now gone back to the 150's and is amazed that the excess detail and edginess is completely gone.  The fact is that the new tweeter sounds so natural and "warm?" that all our models sound like completely different speakers.  If I diidn't know they were my design and had to listen to them in a "blind" listening session, I'd think they were some other company's product - and I'd be sweating bullets!

My point is, what two of our users thought was an electronics issue was in actuality a speaker problem.  Prior to the new tweeter everybody (including mysef) thought our speakers were so "accurate" that the problem had to be in the electronics.  Now we know it's not.  As evidence to that fact, take a look at the distortion measurements that I posted at the start of this thread.  The unit we are using is a slightly modified version of the ScanSpeak 9300 that is shown in those tests.  As you can see from the results, the 9300 has extremely low levels of distortion and is the best among the ones tested - by quite a lot.

So what does all this mean?  Well, for one thing, to me it means that "accuracy" does not necessarily equate to a "sterile" or overly bright sound at all (which is often the view of "professional" monitors).  Instead, such complaints are probably more the result of excessive speaker distortion that the designers are either unaware of - or in denial of.

The other thing that it may mean is that a lot of the juggling of electronics that audiophiles engage in to get a more natural and realistic sound, may actually be do to inferior speakers.

So...maybe a lot of you guys ought to get some better speakers rather than waste your time and money changing electronics?  Hey, I just happen to know this company that makes REALLY good speakers...

-Bob

[PeteG]

Bob,
Your killing me!
I’m wiping the drool off my chin   .


Pete

[John Ashman]

So what does all this mean? Well, for one thing, to me it means that "accuracy" does not necessarily equate to a "sterile" or overly bright sound at all (which is often the view of "professional" monitors). Instead, such complaints are probably more the result of excessive speaker distortion that the designers are either unaware of - or in denial of.
.

BINGO!

[John Ashman]

Well, makes me want to thank NHT  for giving Kim the support he needed to bring that device to market. Uhhh, it may have been to their own un-doing... but hey, that's another story. Sorry.  

Hah!  I don't think NHT has to be worried about being "un-done" for supporting DEQX as an OEM company.  I wouldn't be too cocky if you haven't heard Xd  

[ooheadsoo]

I think Bob's point is that once DEQX makes it big, everyone will have speakers that sound as good as the Xd!

[Aether Audio]

ooheadsoo,

You are exactly right.  Before long only the diehards that refuse to embrace new technology will be the only ones not at least offering the DEQX as an upgrade.  That means most everybody's systems will be getting a lot better and be more on par with NHT's from a value standpoint.  

As they say "a rising tide lifts all boats."  Before long we'll all be back on pretty much the same playing field and then what?  Although NHT will be receiving a boost in market share for a while, I suspect that will be rather short lived as other companies come on board with the DEQX or similar products from others.  As a matter of fact, don't be surprised if you start seeing similar devices poping up everywhere in a year or two.  Just like computers and every other digital product, they'll be more variations than most of us have even thought of yet.

Ahhh, the future's so bright, I have to wear shades.

PS. Hah, I never intended to say that I thought we were going to put NHT out of business!   Last I knew they were owned by International Jensen (I actually toured the plant on an AES field trip).  They have deep enough pockets to outlast all us little guys - and probably most the big ones too!  I just meant that whatever agreement they made with the DEQX guys that permitted them to offer the device to other OEMs, probably will lead to their products having a short "day in the sun."  Obviously they spent a ton of $$ on R&D co-developing they're system and with everybody else having access to the DEQX, they may have a hard time recouping it.  After having helped pay for it, they basically "gave" that technology to everyone for free.  I really am surprised to see it being offered to all of us so soon.  But hey, that's COOL!  I have one coming and I can't wait to get my poor solder-burnt little fingers on it.  No more passive crossovers - YAHOOOOOOOO!!!

-Bob

[John Ashman]

I think Bob's point is that once DEQX makes it big, everyone will have speakers that sound as good as the Xd!

Mmmm, probably not.  There are only a small handful of speakers at best that would DEQX as well as Xd which is the first real speaker designed to take maximum advantage of its capabilities.

[John Ashman]

PS. Hah, I never intended to say that I thought we were going to put NHT out of business!  Last I knew they were owned by International Jensen (I actually toured the plant on an AES field trip). They have deep enough pockets to outlast all us little guys - and probably most the big ones too! I just meant that whatever agreement they made with the DEQX guys that permitted them to offer the device to other OEMs, probably will lead to their products having a short "day in the sun." Obviously they spent a ton of $$ on R&D co-developing they're system and with everybody else having access to the DEQX, they may have a hard time recouping it. After having helped pay for it, they basically "gave" that technology to everyone for free. I really am surprised to see it being offered to all of us so soon.

NHT really didn't help DEQX to market, but it probably helps their financial outlook to have around 1000+ boards pre-ordered for the year.  But, how often does a company that becomes known for innovating and pioneering a hot technology lose control of it and lose momentum?  Not often.  Bayer aspirin still can charge a huge premium for aspirin!  Besides, the XdS speakers are $1500/pr with SEAS drivers and included stands/cables.   The subwoofer with a 500W amplifier and dual 10" drivers is $1200.  So, I don't know that there are dozens of companies lining up to compete on price/value with NHT at this point, but I suppose we'll see, won't we?

[Karsten]

I'll just clarify what Bob wrothe regarding my "problems" with the Belles 150A Reference. We are talking about a cryoed set of mono blocks, they sounded great before they were fully broken in, however once broken in the sound became cold, sterile and very analytical to listen to. Using just one as a stereo amp sounded fine, and a set of non cryoed 150A Reference did well also. These tests were all done with a set of SP Continuum A.D. with the old Vifa tweeter. I can add that this set of Continuum was with cryoed cross over as well.

It would have been easy to say that the cryoed 150AR amps simply sucked, because the speakers sounded fine with Belles 350A monos and other amps as well. I am however in the blessed situation that I have plenty of speakers available, so it was notisable that some of the other speakers did not have the same problem with the cryoed 150AR.

Although we are a bit in the extremes here, it does indicate that what seems to be an amplifier giving a cold, sterile and analytical sound, in fact might as well be the amplifier outperforming the speakers capabilities.

Now using the Revelations with the new Scan Speak tweeter, the exact same cryoed Belles 150AR are performing extremely well, giving the most natural sound I have heard so far. Even very complex material is not messed up and every little detail is in it's right time and place.

Brg,
Karsten