Dedicated power lines

pugs · « **on:** 7 Mar 2005, 04:36 pm »

Is it a worthwhile upgrade to add dedicated lines? What can I expect to pay for it? I plug all my gear into three seperate outlets. Would it be best to install three seperate lines or one new line with three outlets? Is it best to get 20 amp lines?

Lak · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 07:41 pm »

Dedicated lines will make a huge difference in the sound you hear. The floor noise level will drop, allowing you to hear more of the musical details, and perhaps better bass and imaging.
Use 15 or 20 amp breakers depending upon the draw of the amp you use.
I would run three separate dedicated circuit breakers with a good quality outlet such as a Hubbell. I personally prefer the cryo'd Porter-port sold on the Audiogon site.
Use some type of 10/2-gage wire. I do not know what an electrician would charge, (I did my own) I suppose it depends how hard the run is for the electrician. My guess would be $150-$250.

JoshK · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 07:48 pm »

Big difference in my case but I had really crappy electrical wiring in before. I think a lot depends upon your situation in a case by case basis.

Lak · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 08:44 pm »

All I can say is people that I have spoken to that have replaced their regular wiring with dedicated lines, including good outlets and dedicated circuit breakers have told me of a huge improvement. Might not be 100% of the time however now is the time to post negative responses if anyone out there has had them

rosconey · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 09:13 pm »

it works for me-my house has noground on the old outlets,when i would turn on the mono blocks the lights dim-
not anymore with a dedicated line

ctviggen · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Mar 2005, 09:27 pm »

While I don't have a negative response, I also don't have a positive response. I added a single 20 amp breaker and 12 gauge wire, which runs about 6 feet to my amps. I couldn't tell any difference. This weekend, I upgraded to two 20-amp, cryogenically treated outlets (among several other changes). Very little to no difference. However, as I stated before, my power only runs about 6 feet from where the amps were plugged in to the breaker box.

Lak · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Mar 2005, 02:51 pm »

This is from Audiogon today 3/8/05

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablpowr&1115469139

"I have approximately 20ft of Belden 83803 power cable out of a 100ft spool. My new circuit, breaker, ground and Hubble were installed a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, my electrician had to buy a full 100ft spool from his cable distributor. Hence, I have 20ft left and selling by the foot. Buyer will pay also for packaging and postage. Usually a small padded envelope ($1.49) is sufficient for small amounts. Boxes if necessary.

Is is really nice stuff. It's the type/model that is preferred by people who wanna get the most out of there electrical service before it enters their audio gear. In my experience the results are spectacular. My system is much more dynamic, cleaner sounding.

I put in a dedicated line to my stereo with this cable and added separate ground electrodes (getting my system off the common house ground). I also put the breaker at the top of the buss to make sure my stereo was the first devices in the house to get power off the street and the results are spectacular!

The material is described this way: 12 AWG stranded (7x20) tinned copper conductors, FEP insulation, conductors cabled, 100% Beldfoil shield in the outer skin, Teflon on the inner and enclosed by Florinated Ethylene Propylene.

This cable is a complex build and reflected in it's outstanding performance.

This is 3 conductors with heavy shielding to reduce or negate EMT and RFI.

I am over the moon with the results to my system. Highly recommended. Forget tweeks. Begin your stereo upgrades from this baseline"!

woodsyi · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Mar 2005, 03:30 pm »

Even if you get 10 gauge 99.99999 silver conductor and deep freeze the heck out of all your wires and plugs, the power will only be as good as what comes in from the last transformer unless you spend mega bucks on a good power regenerator. If you had been using non busy plugs that are near the breaker, I doubt you will hear much difference. If you had been forced to share the plugs with appliances, you will hear a huge difference. It is not a good thing to use audio on the same circuit with kitchen, laundry room or a woman's dressing room where hair dryers and curlers can go on anytime!

I did not hear any improvement when I put in mine. Main reason I put mine in was to make sure I had enough quantity, more so than quality, of power to run 4 amps for triamping.

JoshK · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Mar 2005, 06:06 pm »

I agree with Woodsyi that it can make a big difference or no difference, there is no gaurantee.

YoungDave · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Mar 2005, 10:38 pm »

This is exactly the sort of tweak I want to do - but I always figured it would be way too hard or too expensive to somehow get new wire into an existing house. My home power is all mixed up, with lots of noisemakers on either phase of my service entrance - and all 14-ga wire to boot.

Sounds like some of you have either run new wire yourselves or paid an electrician - how'd it go, in either case?

PhilNYC · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Mar 2005, 10:53 pm »

Quote from: YoungDave

This is exactly the sort of tweak I want to do - but I always figured it would be way too hard or too expensive to somehow get new wire into an existing house. My home power is all mixed up, with lots of noisemakers on either phase of my service entrance - and all 14-ga wire to boot.

Sounds like some of you have either run new wire yourselves or paid an electrician - how'd it go, in either case?

I just got a quote from an electrician to run 2 dedicated lines at my place. My house is particularly complicated, because the breaker panel is on the exact opposite side of the house in the garage from my listening room (maybe 60ft away), and I don't have a basement that goes the whole length of the house. The quote was $750 labor (given the complication of how they will have to snake the line through the house) and $250 for materials (including 2 20A Hubbell outlets, 10awg wire, and PVC to run part of the line outside the house, and miscellaneous building material). He said this would be a high-end estimate, and unless they run into some major complication, it would be less and would be done in less than a day. This electrician is a friend of a friend, so I don't think he's giving me the "oh, it'll be less" line only to come in 50% over budget. So it's in the ballpark of your average line conditioner in terms of cost for a complicated installation...

Lak · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Mar 2005, 01:37 pm »

Here is some great information to read. Be sure to read the like provided by member Phil Lam.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17143

Lak · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Mar 2005, 01:37 pm »

Here is some great information to read. Be sure to read the link provided by member Phil Lam.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17143

PhilNYC · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Mar 2005, 01:43 pm »

Here's a more detailed link on isolated grounds:

http://www.liebert.com/support/whitepapers/documents/sl_24275.asp

JoshK · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Mar 2005, 03:16 pm »

Ok, so then I need to correct a mistake I made. I did isolate the ground but I am not using a metal conduit around my conductors, therefore, I am not grounding the outlet box.

Quote

As a code minimum, the conduit or raceway is relied upon to ground the outlet box. When non-metallic conduits and most flexible conduits (which do not provide an effective ground path) are used with IG receptacle, the NEC requires a separate grounding conductor to ground the outlet box

What if one is using a plastic outlet box, is this not kosher with IG?

ctviggen · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Mar 2005, 03:38 pm »

I read that information about IG and to me it makes little sense for home users. Unless you want to run metal conduit, which is quite hard to do -- anyone familiar with the metal-clad cable?; that stuff is brutal to work with, it doesn't make sense. While I think there is some benefit to using the metal conduit/box as a shield, I'd be hard pressed to run MC cable just for the improved shielding. MC cable does not bend well, it's incredibly hard to cut (and leaves sharp edges), it doesn't really provide good contact with the box, you have to drill large holes and it's hard to pull through walls, and I doubt it provides that much benefit for the amount of work it takes. Now, if you're adding a new room or building a house, then IG might make sense. But if you're retrofitting an older house, then it might not make sense.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Mar 2005, 04:25 pm »

Quote from: JoshK

What if one is using a plastic outlet box, is this not kosher with IG?

In one of Glen B's threads on HTGuide.com, he says "If you install romex and a plastic receptacle box (provided the latter is permitted by your local code) you will have an isolated ground of sorts. However, a true isolated ground circuit requires the use of a metal receptacle box and conduit (such as EMT with individual type THHN/THWN conductors or type MC-IG armored cable which has hot/neutral/isolated ground/redundant ground conductors). The redundant ground in the type MC cable is there to reduce the impedance of the spiral armor."

He also says later "If you are using romex (more appropiately called type NM-B cable/non-metallic sheated cable) the issues that apply to isolated ground circuits are moot, since romex is non-metallic. There is no metal path between the service panel and outlet, other than the ground wire. If you run two grounds with plastic-sheathed cable, all you will have is a redundant ground."

JoshK · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Mar 2005, 04:49 pm »

Thanks for the info, then I think I am safe because when I looked up code I was pretty sure my implementation was kosher. So I have this quasi IG install.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Mar 2005, 06:20 pm »

FYI - The electrician just finished installing my 20A dedicated AC lines. Similar to Josh, he installed isolated ground outlets (Pass&Seymour 6300), 12awg Romex, and a plastic box. I asked him about some of the discussion around using a metal box and metal conduit, and he told me that there are different schools of thought regarding what is necessary and/or which is "better". Basically said that the "metal box" school comes from a commercial building background, and his feeling was that using a plastic box was a more "up to date" solution and also gave the benefit of not picking up RF around the outlets.

On my power conditioner (Audience adeptResponse), I have a voltage meter on it. On the non-dedicated circuit, I was getting 123-124 volts... on the dedicated line, I'm getting 125 volts. So immediately, I can see that the isolation is helping.

As far as the sound...all I can say is "just when I thought it couldn't get any better..."! At the moment, I am without a preamp (mine is on-loan to an in-home customer trial), so I'm running my Resolution Audio Opus 21 direct to my amp. On the non-dedicated circuit, it definitely lacked dynamics and depth...but on the dedicated line, it is full-bodied, with impact. I am dying to hear what it sounds like when I get my preamp back!!

I was a little worried after read ctviggens' post that I might not hear a difference after spending all this money. But the results have been great...there's no question that things jumped in performance...

Lak · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Mar 2005, 08:17 pm »

I'm glad! I thought you would be happy. I realize the results aren't successful for everyone, however it does assist most and takes their system to a higher level. Now, how about the installation of that 5 KVA Isolation Transformer...