[JeffB]

Well, I ordered a JVC RX-F10 from J & R and it arrived Friday.  It was $229 from J & R Music World, no shipping cost, no tax.  It arrived in perfect condition and as far as I can tell works correctly.  I am using it for 2 channel audio without a subwoofer, so I may never know if all the bells and whistles work.  I also currently own a Sonic Impact powered by a 5AH SLA battery.  Unfortunatley, I don't have any speakers worth a damn to give a very good review.  I have some very cheap particle board speakers with a single 4" driver capable of handling all of 5 watts.  Nonetheless, I am going to give my impresssion.  

Initially, I plugged the JVC straight into the wall.  It sounded pretty good, but it just was not involving me in the music.  It seemed to lack the speed and detail of the SI.  I was kind of dissapointed and close to packing it up to send back.  I wanted the convenience of the JVC though so I thought I would hang onto it a bit longer.  I have 12 days to decide.

Then, I decided what the hell, I would plug the JVC into my Surge Suppressor.  I have a $30 surge suppressor that also has some power filtering.  It claims to eliminate 95% or maybe it was 99% of the noise.  Wow, what a difference that made.  Now I know why Chair Guy has BPT in front of it.  I think I'll be keeping the unit now.  I am pretty sure at this point that it would get even better with better power conditioning.  I think my surge suppressor slowed down the sound ever so slightly.  It is slower than SI for sure.  However, the detail picked up greatly.  I still think I here a little AC grunge.  There seems to more of noise floor than the SI.  The black background on the SI is awesome.

But overall what do I prefer, the SI or the JVC plugged into the Surge Suppressor.  I think the nod has to go to the JVC.

The JVC has vastly better control of the driver at high volume.  The sound from the JVC seems fuller due to better bass control.  The SI unit rolls off at 200 Hz and the JVC goes down to 20Hz.  Instruments on the JVC sound more realistic.  This may be due to them seemingly having more weight.  There is less clipping and distortion than with the SI.  My SI seems to make some strange sounds once in a while.  I think it is clipping a lot at high volume.

The SI seems to have better speed than the JVC.  The SI also has amazing detail as the background is so black.  The high frequencies from the SI are harsher than the JVC and kind of fatiguing.

Both systems are little fatiguing.  After hearing the detail of the SI, I miss that in the JVC.  Although the two are very close in this respect, but only with noise filtering on the JVC.  And with the SI, I have the harsher highs, less accurate tone, and a general lack of fullness to the sound.

I know speakers could change things a lot.  The SI really needs a more sensitive speaker.  And the JVC might really trounce the SI in the bass department, if I had a speaker that would go down low.

[JeffB]

I have a Scientific Atlanta Cable Box and Charter Digital Cable.  The output from my cable box is not as loud as from my DVD player.  Now that I have the JVC I thought I would try the digital input.  My cable box has a coaxial digital out.  I expected this to fix the volume difference, but it seems to have no effect.  I have done an A-B comparison in the following way.  Cable to JVC using digit connection.  Cable to TV to JVC using analog.  I can easily switch between these two inputs and the volume level is the same.  But definitley lower than the output from the DVD player.  I don't understand why this is the case.

It is interesting that the cable's digital ouput only works for music channels.  Well maybe it works for TV too, but not on the channel I was watching(CBS).  This had me baffled for about 30 minutes.

The digital input sounds better than the Cable to TV to JVC route.  There is clearly less noise.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Jeff,

I have both - a modded SI and a JVC F10.  

I've yet to put my now-newly-modded SI (thank you corwin99!) thru it's paces yet  - best I can offer it is a 90db Vandy 1c.   The biggest problem is that the JVC sounds so nice paired to my Maggie MMG that I'm not particularly compelled to set up the SI the right way - right now    

Good conditioning is a must on the JVC - great conditioning serves to improve it well beyond what you thought was possible for $229.00.  I've never been this satisfied this long with my system.  The BPT 2.0 (16 + amp capacity) is very good, but you can get the next cheaper one in their line and save a bunch - if all you have is digital components on it, there is little draw.  I bought my BPT when I still had (mono) analog amps in my system.

Give the JVC 300 hours as well - there is significant improvement as it burns in  

[-Richard-]

My JVC F10 bit the dust recently...my fault really...
I crimped the banana plug ends of my Signal speaker
cables so they would fit into the tiny spring loaded
receptors on the back of my F10 which worked
fine until they eventually pushed the tiny metal plates
too far back...the result was that the metal plates shorted
out the amp...the small two person local company JVC
is using to service their warrantied electronic products is
remarkably unsympathetic...his price for fixing it will cost
more than buying a new one...and states that JVC will
not honor the warrantee...hummmmmm...

Like the ChairGuy I was very much in love with the
sound of the Maggie (1.6's) driven by the F10...sounded
like electrostatic speakers in transparency...all the
dynamics one could hope for...and detail that always
seemed to serve the music...a match made in heaven...
as ChairGuy suggests...

I sold my Maggies because of space considerations...
and the amp died soon after...yet another example of
electronic instruments suffering unrequited love
from being seperated from speakers they were having
an affair with...like the family dog these amps seem to
take on our emotional lives...

I am now burning in a ClariT Amp...more to come on
that after I have had a chance to give a listen with
the soon to arrive Omega Grand 8 R’s...a much
better match for my current listening room in
terms of size...


As far as I remember the spec's on the F10 put the
lowest frequency at 40Hz...not the 20Hz JeffB mentions
in this thread...where exactly did you get that information
JeffB?...did you have the opportunity to take measurements
or from reading the spec sheet that came with the amp?...

Perhaps JVC has revised those
specs in their latest iterations of their F10 amp.

Warm regards -Richard-

[TheChairGuy]

Hey -Richard-......you've been talkin' to Dmason again if you've got a Clari-T burning in.

Sorry to hear about your F10.  I'll play Verdi's Requium on the F10/MMG in honor of it's passing  

Always great to hear from ya'  

[-Richard-]

Hi ChairGuy,

Thanks for commiserating with my loss...
very sympathetic of you...

Ah yes...the ClariT...the good doctor Dan
Mason has indeed penetrated any resistance
I might have had with his inimical prose...
he is indeed a pied piper and I admit that I
am always deeply affected by his insights
and the shared quest of finding the technology
that can release the magic that is unique to music
alone...that feeling of transcendence...of the emotions
taking flight...

I am very interested in single full range paper
cone drivers like the Fostex...the promise of speed,
clarity, cohesiveness, imaging, and detail...just to
mention a few of their revered characteristics...
and their incredible efficiency and sensitivity...
the Fostex 207E which is used in the Omega
Grand 8 R's for example is 96db efficient...
should be a perfect match for the 6 watt ClariT
Amp.

There is a growing chorus of very happy music
lovers in these august threads that are finding the
ClariT and highly efficient speakers to be a match
made in heaven...and I am very interested to see
if this combination is what I am looking for...

Dan thinks the 8 inch drivers are something of
a "golden mean"...and may have the best
characteristics for these kinds of single full range drivers...
that is why I purchased the 8 inch Fostex...
there is also the suggestion that if the cabinet
has the correct internal volume and dimensions
that one could drop any one of several variations of this
8 inch driver design into those cabinets and they
should play with equal integrity...something that
I think I might find very intriguing over time...

These paper cone drivers have the unique ability
to actually sound better over time...something like
a fine musical instrument...which I also find very
interesting...

Having lived with and grown to love the Maggies
over several years I have the experience of a boxless
speaker design that is extraordinarily fast as a ground
to match other speaker designs with...

I think...given everything I have read...that the Fostex
speakers and their ilk will come close to the speed
and palpable "presence" of the Maggies and have
some features of their own that many people find
most compelling...

I should get my Omega Grand 8 R's in about 2 weeks.

Meanwhile the little ClariT is driving my entirely inefficient
Ruark Crusader 2, 3-way floor standing speakers that spec
out at 84db sensitivity...and would you believe that this little
6 watt tri-path chip set amp drives them beautifully...
Deb is crazy about the s-m-o-o-t-h top end and detail
that always serves the music and this amp makes the
Ruark's sound like electrostatic speakers most of the time...
Simply amazing...of course the bass is not as fleshed out
as it should be with more efficient speakers like the Fostex...
and that is a matter of the laws of physics coming into play...

After all the ClariT is not designed for such inefficient speakers...

Still the sound is very satisfying...and the "black" background
is very seductive...this amp may well have spoiled me for anything
less refined...

So far I must characterize the ClariT Amp as being the most
"intelligent" amp I have ever heard...

Intelligent in the sense that the music reveals itself with the
full "intent" of the composer or musician or singer I am
listening to...the layered detail is not to be believed...

My little ClariT is still burning in mind you...I only have
44 hours on it...so the "bloom" that Vinnie Rossi talks about
that seems to come about at 100 hours or more has not
fully revealed itself...yet...

Nice to chat with you once again ChairGuy.

Warmest regards -Richard-

[JeffB]

The manual that comes with the JVC comes with a spec sheet.  It states frequency response 20Hz to 20kHz +- 1db.  It also states output power as 100W per channel, min. RMS both channels driven into 6 ohms at 40Hz to 20kHZ with no more than .8% THD.  The power to all other channels is rated at 100W into 6 ohms at 1kHz.

Richard, sorry to hear your JVC bit the dust.  I have been thinking of getting a Clari-T and the Omegas 8s also.  However, I am also contemplating the Decware RL 1.5 radials, and I am not sure that they are sensitive enough for the Clari-T.  I also want to hear about the new Omega Hemp drivers.

[-Richard-]

Hi JeffB,

It seems as if you are really doing your
homework...nice to hear that you are
looking into things with a careful attention
to synergy...

I suppose that if I had to characterize my
most emphatic learning experience over
the past several years about all things audio
it would be to pay a great deal of attention
to synergy...

I am very very interested in anything you
find out as your research continues...

Keep us posted...meanwhile thanks for
publishing the specs on the little JVC...
I have spent many happy hours listening to
it...head and shoulders above the Carver
Professional ZR 1600...

With the right speakers they should give you
many hours of musical bliss...

Warmest regards -Richard-

[Horizons]

Thanks for the warning Richard as I am using the F10 and Maggie 1.6QRs too. I did have some trouble with my Kimber cables and JVC unit initially. However, I am not a big believer in cables anyway and now I am biamping using all four channels of the JVC. I now use home depot 14GA zip wire with tinned leads and it sounds just fine to me.  I may even open the JVC and solder the speaker wire directly since I believe that the CONNECTORS are more important than the actual wire.

There is a certain magic in the JVC/Maggie combo and that magic is increased with a tubed DAC and biamping.

[-Richard-]

Hi Horizons,

There were long threads that addressed the various
qualities and considerations in using the JVC F10
when Dan Mason originally presented to our audio
community as a serious if inexpensive model of what
a digit tri-path chip set amp can do to render the magic
of the music...

In those threads it quickly became apparent that using
the F10 as a basic 2 channel amp rendered the most magic
for the music...my technical background is rather poor...so
I do not retain specifics like some of the more technically
knowledgeable members of these august circles...however
I believe it had something to do with the way the F10 handled
the signal in 2 channel as opposed to the 4 channel set up...
less conversion complexities...

Perhaps you could research some of the early threads that
deal very specifically with those issues regarding the F10...

More liquid and less solid state sounding as a 2 channel
amp...more dimensional...

A great combination with the Maggies...

Warmest regards -Richard-

[Andrikos]

I'm ready to pull the trigger on one of those (JVC F10).
One last misssing piece of information that I need is this:
Does it have pre-outs?
My front L-R speakers are active line arrays so they cannot be powered by the receiver (the rears are btw).
I need to go from pre-outs (L - R) --> DCX2496 --> two channel amp per speaker.
Anyone? I'd appreciate your input.
Thanks,

[Red Dragon Audio]

I'm ready to pull the trigger on one of those (JVC F10).
One last misssing piece of information that I need is this:
Does it have pre-outs?
My front L-R speakers are active line arrays so they cannot be powered by the receiver (the rears are btw).
I need to go from pre-outs (L - R) --> DCX2496 --> two channel amp per speaker.
Anyone? I'd appreciate your input.
Thanks,

Do you want to use the F10 as the preamp section in your setup?

Or do you want to use it as a 4channel amp to actively biamp your speakers?

Maybe you meant to ask if it has pre-INS instead of pre-OUTS...

maybe I just need to ask what is your intended use for the F10?

[Andrikos]

Hey Ryan,
I already have a receiver where I run my surround speakers with and I use the pre-outs for the L-R --> DCX2496 Dig EQ --> 2 channels/amp --> two way line array.

I probably cannot use the F10 as a "bi-amp" since my speakers don't have passive X-overs (I use the DCX for that in addition to the parametric equalization capabilities).

So, in order to answer your question, I need the pre-outs for the front channels.
Thanks,

[Red Dragon Audio]

I may even open the JVC and solder the speaker wire directly since I believe that the CONNECTORS are more important than the actual wire..

Very good point.  I might offer a further observation on this topic of connectors and wire.  Hopefully I'm not straying too far off topic as this applies to most folks out there even with the most expensive gear/cables.

CONNECTORS:
Often times connectors are a choke point-weak link in the audio system and almost negate the use of fine quality cables/wire.  

For example, let's say you are using pure solid core silver cable; whether it's for your speaker or interconnect cables (Silver is a better conductor than pure copper by about 6% according to IACS).  

Now let's say you have this nice silver wire fitted with WBT or any major brand of connector, more than likely that connector core is solid brass with multiple layers of plating-usually a nickel sub plate with gold over that to give it corrosion resitance and a shiny appearance (except for the WBT NextGen RCA's and Eichmann connectors)

These layers of plating offer minute amounts of resistance and brass is no where near as conductive as pure silver(or copper for that matter)...well the fine silver wire conductor you have is no longer as impressive as it's now got a choke point or weak link at either end of it (whether it's brass RCA or speaker connectors the plated brass is the choke point - weak link and you can't get around it).

Now you plug your fine silver wire fitted with nickel/gold plated brass connectors into your amp or other components.  What have we here?  More connection points with solid brass cores and nickel/gold plating.

So not only do your cables have weak links - choke points at either end but your components and speakers do as well.

So these choke points occur at many points in any given stereo system and the negative effects become additive..so the more points where connections are made with standard connectors, the more harmful they become.

Solution
Get good connectors in there made of solid copper with minimal plating or pure silver connectors with no plating.  Pure copper connectors with no plating but that are kept clean and free of oxidation work great too.  I might apply a silver paste to them in order to prevent oxidation (do so after thoroughly cleaning the copper connection points).

WIRE
Now using good quality wire matters once again and will be more effective for the same reasons stated for using good quality connectors.   How much you want to spend on wire and what kind is up to you but at least you'll know that your quality wire isn't choked off any more by poor connectors.

I do believe http://www.stage3concepts.com">Stage III Concepts Cables represent the above outlined concepts very well as do a number of other cable manufacturers. [no I am not a Stage III dealer nor do I have any affiliation with them.  I just mention their cables as they use these principles in their designs]

Horizons,
I used to own Magnepan 1.6's and I modded them in a few different ways.  When I went to sell them I restored them to almost stock configuration.  I did use better wire internally but I also got rid of the horrible STEEL connectors.  That was probably the biggest improvement for the money that you can do on Maggies.  I just used solid copper core binding posts with gold plating.  The sound improvement was immediate and noticeable without any doubt.  It wasn't just a change but a true improvement.  I'd say it's like the analogy of washing your windows with Windex so they're perfectly clean.  That's what kind of improvement happens when you swap out the steelies on maggies.  I can't say that type of night&day improvement will occur in every situation where poor connectors are replaced with quality connectors but the cummulative effects should be.



So I guess what I am saying, Horizons, is definitely solder your cables directly to the interals of the F10.

You'll be pleased you did.  Later on you can always experiment with finer wire.  

[JeffB]

Andrikos,

I'll look for the outputs when I get home tonight.  I think I remember a monitor out for sending low level to the TV.  I'll have to double check.  The back of this thing has a bunch of connectors.

[Andrikos]

Thank you Jeff, I appreciate it.

[Horizons]

Very good point.  I migh offer a further observation on this topic of connectors and wire.  Hopefully I'm not straying too far off topic as this applies to most folks out there even with the most expensive gear/cables.

CONNECTORS:
Often times connectors are a choke point-weak link in the audio system and almost negate the use of fine quality cables/wire.  

For example, let's say you are using pure solid core silver cable; whether it's for your  ...

Thanks Starch:

I have you to thank for biamping my 1.6QRs. I contacted Davey and he gave me the values to plug in. I am now using passive in-line xovers that replicate the stock 1.6QR points and slopes. You should hear that JVC driving the Maggies without passive high-level xover parts and using the front and surround channels (100W x 4). Once I dial everything in I will probably solder the wire directly to the wires coming from the Maggie panels. I am still going through the fuse and steel connectors. I guess this means it is going to sound even better in the future. Wow, right now they sound like Quads driven by multi-thousand $$ class A amps.

[Red Dragon Audio]

Thanks Starch:

I have you to thank for biamping my 1.6QRs. I contacted Davey and he gave me the values to plug in. I am now using passive in-line xovers that replicate the stock 1.6QR points and slopes. You should hear that JVC driving the Maggies without passive high-level xover parts and using the front and surround channels (100W x 4). Once I dial everything in I will probably solder the wire directly to the wires coming from the Maggie panels. I am still going through the fuse and steel connectors. I ...

I bet that sounds soooo good!      

Getting rid of the passive high level speaker crossover is the best thing to do for most speakers (especially maggies since they are simple networks w/o any complex impedance compensation or zoble networks and they have ruler flat impedance too).

Once you get rid of those nasty steel connectors, there will be one more layer/veil lifted and you will be in true biamped maggie heaven!  I think there are audiophile grade fuses out there...I remember seeing them once but I don't recall who makes or sells them.


I wish I could email myself over to your place for a listen sometime!

[mcgsxr]

There is a monitor out, but that is a fixed volume output, not a pre-out.

Not sure if that matters, but it could...

[Horizons]

I wish I could email myself over to your place for a listen sometime!

After I move in April and get my dedicated listening room setup, I will post some pics of the system and room. If you ever find yourself in Orange County, CA... call and stop on by...