Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?

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Gyosa

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Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« on: 23 Jul 2020, 01:36 am »
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/salk-wow1-bookshelf-speaker-review.14842/

FWIW ,
I own a pair of Supercharged Songtowers and couldn’t be more pleased ....

I believe they are waiting for your input over there .....

Bk

Gyosa

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Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Jul 2020, 01:39 am »
Oh ,
It seems there are a lot of Salk fans over there .....

Bk

jsalk

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Jul 2020, 01:44 pm »
I haven't had time to thoroughly review it yet, but will likely respond sometime today.

- Jim

RonN5

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Jul 2020, 03:33 pm »
A couple things you find on ASR when reading through comments on virtually any component

1.  There seems to be a weird pleasure derived in "trashing" components that the overall audiophile press likes and recommends

2.  More often than not, they measure then listen..and if it doesn't measure well, then how can it possibly sound good

3.  Many of the posters like to post negatively about things they have never heard....and justify their comments based on their own "technical" expertise

4.  If ASR says that something doesn't measure well...and hence doesn't sound good, they are quick to jump on anyone that then says, "hey, I've heard this product and it sounds pretty good".

As for the WOW1 comments on ASR...again, very little reference to the interview with Jim back in 2013 by Inner Fidelity regarding the design and goals for the WOW1...in relation to what ASR measured.

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/beauty-sight-and-sound-salk-wow1-mini-monitor-page-2


rick_reynolds40

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Jul 2020, 03:45 pm »
Ron

You beat me to it.  I don't give that site or that guy's "measurements" any credence at all.  They love to trash things and never give any evidence they have listened to a product.  I wouldn't waste my time with them.

Rick 

HT cOz

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Jul 2020, 04:23 pm »
I actually owned these speakers for many years and enjoyed them.  I'm going over to post as it is a bit ridiculous to think you can have everything with no tradeoffs. 

tvyankee

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #6 on: 23 Jul 2020, 04:25 pm »
To say you wouldn't give them any credit is a bit of a stretch. They provide real data and that gives them plenty of credit . You may not like the answers you are getting but that doesn't mean they have no credit. I have listen to Salks stuff and i myself think it sounds good but im not going to rule out real measurement s because of my subjective opinion.

You should join there and give your reason why you believe there is something wrong with the way they do things,they are open to dialog as long as you have real info on why they should change the way they do it the way the do it. They have a whole complaints thread.

RonN5

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #7 on: 23 Jul 2020, 05:17 pm »
tvyankee

I suspect we pretty much all agree that measurements matter...and that the ability to measure has improved over the last 20 years.  Nevertheless, human nature being what it is...meaning that we are influenced by measurements....it makes a lot more sense to listen to a variety of music while recording your impressions.

Then measure....and more than likely, the measurements will have some discontinuities that you can't/don't hear and would know nothing about had you not measured.  Now the real question....you listened...you liked...you measured...you found some bumps....now do you think you hear those bumps and not longer like the product?

For sure, measurements help designers.  For sure measurements help when trying to overcome room problems.  And also for sure, a weird measurement, taken before listening, will influence what we think we hear.

And, I would add that especially for speakers...how they measure and how they sound at ASR may well be vastly different from what would happen in each of our own listening spaces....and yet their measurements and recommendations do not allow for that.

Gyosa

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Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #8 on: 23 Jul 2020, 07:15 pm »
Well , I agree with all the above comments ....
All I know is that my SCST’s are the best sounding speakers I have ever owned .....
My next speakers will be Veracity ST’s .....
Love that RAAL .....

There appears to be many , many Salk fans over there that are perplexed by the results ....

Personally , I think too much is being expected for such a small speaker ....
It is what it is ... a small speaker ...

I’ve never heard them , but based on my Salks, I bet I’d like them just fine ...

However , I do find merit and value in the reviews there .... there is a lot of “junk” being sold to audiophiles ...
He provides a valuable service in my opinion ....

I just wish he would ACTUALLY listen and report his thoughts as well as just the measurements ....

Bk

Gyosa

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Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Jul 2020, 07:23 pm »
A couple things you find on ASR when reading through comments on virtually any component

1.  There seems to be a weird pleasure derived in "trashing" components that the overall audiophile press likes and recommends


THE “OVERALL AUDIOPHILE PRESS” LIKES EVERYTHING, ESPECIALLY FROM MANUFACTURERS THAT ADVERTISE WITH THEM .... i personally have very little faith in their “reviews” ....
I have much more faith in actual users reviews COUPLED with honest measurents .....

BK





Texbychoice

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Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #10 on: 23 Jul 2020, 07:33 pm »
That review and commentary on audio science is the kind of dribble that soured audio as a hobby for me over 25 years ago.  Had been reading every review from "experts" as if gospel.  Auditioned many of the highly reviewed components for myself coming away wondering what was wrong with me.  Almost none matched the expert reviews.  During one audition visit to local Audiophile shop, noticed a couple small oddly shaped speakers.  Asked to hear them.  Sales advisor fumbled around for while to get them hooked up.  He did not know the brand or price.  Right off the bat were amazingly good.  Articulate, clean, superb sound stage.  Paired with a sub woofer the sound was great. Spent the next 3 hours following the sales advisor around the store as HE compared those ugly ducklings to increasingly higher end speakers.  Ended up in the top tier room when he declared victory finding something that sounded better.  Took the ugly ducklings home with a sub woofer.  Since then relied on my own ears.

RonN5

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #11 on: 23 Jul 2020, 07:35 pm »
Most of the audiophile press admit that they won’t write about or trash products they don’t like... so, knowing that, we can expect their reviews will tend to be pretty positive. That doesn’t mean we as buyers will have the same overall reaction... but it is at least a starting point.

I’m not down on ASR... I just disagree with their method of measure first listen second.  If you think blind listening tests can be helpful, then don’t measure first.

johzel

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #12 on: 23 Jul 2020, 07:36 pm »
Ron

You beat me to it.  I don't give that site or that guy's "measurements" any credence at all.  They love to trash things and never give any evidence they have listened to a product.  I wouldn't waste my time with them.

Rick

+1 Exactly. Bogus site.

Gyosa

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Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #13 on: 23 Jul 2020, 07:46 pm »
+1 Exactly. Bogus site.

Why is it “bogus” in your opinion ?
Because they measure and don’t “listen “ ?

Personally, I find SOME value in the “measurements “ , even if they don’t “listen” ......

 BK


rick_reynolds40

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #14 on: 23 Jul 2020, 08:07 pm »
I do not understand the value in measurements without listening to verify if an anomaly present in the measurements is audible.  I own a well reviewed DAC.  ASR measured it and declared that it "Could not be recommended" due to various issues they found.  Did they listen to music the DAC and try to verify that the issues in measurement audibly effected its performance?  No, they didn't.  For that reason I find ZERO value in that guys site.  If you want to participate in his BS go ahead.

Rick

jsalk

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #15 on: 23 Jul 2020, 08:54 pm »
Just posted this response, but since it was my first post on that site, it will need administrator approval before being accessible to the public.  So I'm posting it here as well...

First off, thanks to Amir for running these tests and conveying his appraisal.

We sent these speakers to be evaluated at the request of a customer. While the speakers were intended to be shipped from Amir to the customer after the tests were completed, yesterday we requested that they be shipped back to us for a closer inspection. Until they are returned and we’ve had a chance to evaluate them, I can’t comment on what we may find with respect to this particular pair.

That said, perhaps a review of the origins of this speaker might be in order.

As I’ve said many times in the past, speaker design is all about balancing trade-offs. There is no such thing as the “perfect” speaker.

About eight years ago, a customer requested we build a custom speaker he called the WOW1. The name came from the Seas Excel “W”12 and the “OW1” tweeter. As I recall, the reason he chose the Seas W12 was to match his existing speakers which used larger Seas Excel woofers.

In a perfect world, that might have been the only pair we ever built. But we don’t live in a perfect world.

Every day we receive emails asking us to recommend a speaker that can overcome issues related to an intended application. An example would be a situation where one speaker sits in an open area with plenty of room behind the speaker, while the other speaker must fit in a corner with a glass wall right next to it. Or a tower speaker that can’t be over 35” tall. The list is endless.

We also must deal with issues related to other household members. Comments like “my spouse will not agree to floor standing speakers,” or “my partner does not want to see any speakers,” are quite common.

After we designed that first pair of WOW1’s, we continued to get requests for speakers that were very small (mini-monitors) and would fit inside an existing bookshelf cavern or mounted on the wall…applications where rear porting was not feasible (rear porting is always an option).

We also had many requests for a small speaker that could be mounted on a wall for home theater surround duty, crossed to a sub at 80Hz.

Another common request is a small speaker to be used at relatively low volume levels for a computer monitor, again placed against a wall.

While none of these situations are necessarily ideal, the WOW1 design is the only design we currently have available that can meet those requirements. If another design would work better, we would certainly recommend it instead. But most often, interest in this design is related to obstacles that prevent the use of larger speakers, or even rear-ported speakers.

When someone orders a pair of these speakers, we normally like to know how they intend to use them. Often, they are used as computer monitors, surround speakers crossed at 80Hz, crossed with a sub in a small system or for casual background music in a den or bedroom. If not, we normally recommend they look at another, better suited design. After all, it makes no sense to sell someone a speaker that would not work for them, especially when selling direct on the internet where negative comments can spread quickly.

We have another design called the SongBird. When people attempt to order them, I most often encourage them to look at the SongTowers instead. The SongBirds are a wonderful sounding speaker. But the sensitivity is low and the power handling is limited. Some potential purchasers have indicated that they rarely ever crank the speakers up to high SPL’s. I make sure they understand that they can never do it with this design. And yet, in the right situation, it is a particularly good speaker.

The WOW1’s were never intended to be main speakers in a serious listening environment. We obviously wouldn’t choose a 4” woofer for that purpose. As was pointed out, this driver would be better suited as a midrange. But a larger woofer is simply not an option on a speaker of this size. And even that size is considered too large for some. The other day I received an email asking if we could reduce the WOW1 height for a bookshelf application that only allowed a 10” tall speaker. Another customer asked if we could build a speaker that was 10” on a side and played at SPL levels of 110 – 115 db (we obviously passed on that one). We deal with these sorts of requests every day.

While perhaps not a perfect solution, sometimes a design such as this is the only viable option. That said, this design has only received positive reviews and very positive comments from scores of owners who are perfectly happy with them. None have ever been returned.

I should add here that I personally use these for surround speakers in my dedicated home theater and am very happy with them – and I’m quite picky.

Since driver technology has advanced in the last eight years, why wouldn’t we design a mini-monitor that used a superior driver combination and dealt more effectively with the front port issues? For one reason: there is no money in speakers in this size and price range. It is like in-wall speakers. We are constantly asked whether we would be willing to produce custom in-wall speakers. The answer is always no. No matter how well they are designed, there are simply too many compromises. We would rather spend our time working on more cutting-edge designs like one on the drawing boards now - a project which will introduce a novel new tweeter concept.

I noted several comments concerning powered speakers with DSP. I completely agree that all issues noted could be addressed with this approach.

A few years ago, we did a slightly larger powered monitor we called the PowerPlay. It had the flattest response of any speaker we have ever offered. And when auditioned at shows and audiophile society meetings, it received nothing but rave comments. But there was zero demand for the design. The only pair we ever sold was the original prototype pair.

While I may wish it was different, powered speakers are of no interest to our customers.

Converting this to an active speaker would only serve to add cost to a design in a field that is already crowded. And there would not be much margin in it. This is better left to a high-volume manufacturer.

When these WOW1s return, we will evaluate them and determine the nature of the issues here.

Stay tuned…

abd1

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Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #16 on: 23 Jul 2020, 09:05 pm »
I have a pair of WOW1's in my office. I use them in a nearfield config on my desk. I love them! Replaced LS50's with them, which were good too, but I don't think I'll be changing desktop speakers anytime soon.

Endo2112

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Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #17 on: 23 Jul 2020, 09:52 pm »

I think it's important to note that Amir has an agenda, and that is to drive sales for Harmon, and all Harmon products, it maybe a long game but make no mistake it's exactly what's going on over there. If Jim were to review a  Harmon product and hate it while at the same time singing the praises of his own builds, cult ASR would lose their mind, people need to stop going to that site, period.  it's harmful to what we as audiophiles value and hopefully that's the music!!

Cheers,

Don


ServerAdmin

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #18 on: 23 Jul 2020, 10:16 pm »
Can we leave the unfounded speculation ^ out of it please folks, otherwise this thread will have to be Quarantined. Thanks.

tvyankee

Re: Jim , have you seen this by any chance ?
« Reply #19 on: 23 Jul 2020, 10:41 pm »
Don.

Show us proof about your reply. Every Harman review he says in the very beginning he sells Harman and take his review with a grain of salt.

Its possible that Harman makes good stuff. They have been in biz for like 50 years or more.