[Yomaha]

I have a tube integrated and love it in my current setup.  Its output is 25 watts per channel pushing 88dB sensitivity speakers in a fairly large room with high ceilings.  Without going on a tangent, let's just say it does a heck of a lot of what I really like.  The only thing I'd want more of is a little more slam and impact when I'm playing rock music at louder volumes.  That's not very often, but when I do, it doesn't quite have the ooomphhff that I'm looking for, and I think it's mainly due to the room size.

I really like having one box, so instead of getting an outboard amp I thought about getting more efficient speakers.  Would something more sensitive like a Devore or Volti play louder on the same 25 watts with increased sensitivity?   Or is that the wrong way to think about it?  TIA!

[Tyson]

Yep, higher efficiency speakers mean louder and more dynamic with the watts you already have.

[mick wolfe]

Yep, higher efficiency speakers mean louder and more dynamic with the watts you already have.

Couldn't agree more with Tyson. I've lived thru this same scenario. Something like a Klipsch Forte III or Volti Razz would be a game changer. As much as I like DeVore's, they're not as efficient as either and frankly, a bit overpriced.

[Yomaha]

Thanks!  That's what I was hoping but wasn't 100% sure.

As a kid, my dad had some Altec Lansing horns with adjustable crossovers. It really makes me curious about the Volti's.  I see that the new Razz are written up in the latest Stereophile.   

[FullRangeMan]

I think more efficient speakers is the way to go.
I would look something on the used market around 98-100dB as Klipsch RF83 or RF7.

[Delta77]

Don’t know what speakers you are using..
But I don’t think you could go wrong with Volti..
You would have to ask Greg if 20-25 watts is enough..

You’re gonna make me jealous if you end up with any model of Volti..!

[rodge827]

Yomaha - What is your budget and room size?

Looking to purchase new or used?

Chris

[Yomaha]

Room size is 26x17 w/ 12ft ceilings. I’d be fine buying used and looking in the $3-6k range. I told Greg what I had and he said that 25w should be plenty.

[JLM]

Ah, the never good enough aspect of being an audiophile rears it's ugly head.  There's a lot to be said for knowing when good enough is good enough.

Stereophile measurements tore up the Razz.  Not uncommon for high efficiency speakers (also look at their measurements for the latest K-horn which aren't pretty either).  My experience is that high efficiency speakers can lack deep bass and be full of colorations (it's hard to find a free lunch).  The laws of physics are what they are and materials have improved little over the decades.  In my book speaker efficiency around 93 dB/w/m is the ideal balance between dynamics and lack of various speaker/system distortions.  High efficiency speakers could reveal noise from your tube amp.

Basically every 3 dB doubles the power needed but only sounds half again as loud and 10 dB sounds twice as loud but requires 10 times the power.  So in the pursuit of higher sound pressure levels speaker efficiency is easier than adding power (unless you go for class D and your speakers can handle the vastly increased power). 

Have you considered adding one or more subwoofers?  Could really help with slam and filling the room for rock music.

Manufacturers often over rate speaker efficiencies, so shop with care and audition first. 

You might want to skip over to Digital Amp Company's circle where the owner is searching for high efficiency speakers. 

[roscoe65]

25W will work with most speakers above 90dB in your space.  But you would want some headroom to give a sense of ease and power.  In your space, which is similar to my own, a speaker with 95dB or greater will give you 105dB peaks at a 2 meter listening distance.

More importantly, a lot of impact with rock music is in the midbass.  We’ve all been at a concert and felt that “chest lock” that gave music its impact.  For me, it is easier to get that visceral impact with a 10” or 12” driver than one that is 8” or smaller.  The Volti would certainly fall into that category.

Another option is to go vintage Altec.  With your budget, you could afford a custom set of Altec’s with high end crossovers by Zilch or Mast Mutter.

What would I do in your shoes?  This sounds like it is right up your alley:  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163933.0

[S Clark]

Another option is to go vintage Altec.  With your budget, you could afford a custom set of Altec’s with high end crossovers by Zilch or Mast Mutter.

Vintage Altec is a good option, BUT...
Use Danny Richie for custom crossover... he's in a different league from those guys. 

[AvsFan]

25W will work with most speakers above 90dB in your space.  But you would want some headroom to give a sense of ease and power.  In your space, which is similar to my own, a speaker with 95dB or greater will give you 105dB peaks at a 2 meter listening distance.

More importantly, a lot of impact with rock music is in the midbass.  We’ve all been at a concert and felt that “chest lock” that gave music its impact.  For me, it is easier to get that visceral impact with a 10” or 12” driver than one that is 8” or smaller.  The Volti would certainly fall into that category.

Another option is to go vintage Altec.  With your budget, you could afford a custom set of Altec’s with high end crossovers by Zilch or Mast Mutter.

What would I do in your shoes?  This sounds like it is right up your alley:  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163933.0

Roscoe! I know you and I have chatted before in threads and you couldn't have explained it better! I go to A LOT of concerts! I live in Colorado and the venues here are spectacular, obviously one of the most coveted venues in the world, Red Rocks, place is spectacular. Anyway, yes, I know what Les Claypool's bass guitar sounds like live from the front row along with Tim Alexander's dual kick drums and that right there is what I am going for in my two channel system. The ZU's are as close to that as I have ever got from a speaker. And I have gone through over 15 pairs in 6 years. 

[roscoe65]

Vintage Altec is a good option, BUT...
Use Danny Richie for custom crossover... he's in a different league from those guys.

I’m familiar with Danny’s work in my own home.  “Those guys” have been refining some of the Altec crossovers for years.

[S Clark]

The Zilch crossover didn't work as well as Danny's for my Valencias.  Don't know about others. 

[roscoe65]

Roscoe! I know you and I have chatted before in threads and you couldn't have explained it better! I go to A LOT of concerts! I live in Colorado and the venues here are spectacular, obviously one of the most coveted venues in the world, Red Rocks, place is spectacular. Anyway, yes, I know what Les Claypool's bass guitar sounds like live from the front row along with Tim Alexander's dual kick drums and that right there is what I am going for in my two channel system. The ZU's are as close to that as I have ever got from a speaker. And I have gone through over 15 pairs in 6 years.

If you go to a lot of shows you know a couple of things:  almost all venues are use sound systems that are heavily DSP’d and present in curved line arrays.  There are still some older venues (Irving Plaza, etc.) that still have their prehistoric systems, but for the most part sound is better than it ever was.  One thing you will not find is “soundstage” or “imaging”.  You’re just in the middle of a reverberant sound field with no real sonic localization cues.  It isn’t “they are here”, it is “you are there”.  You rely on visual cues to know where the music is coming from.  It is the same in a smaller venue.  A single jazz guitarist playing to a dinner crowd is still just “in the room”.  The sound just fills the space in a way a typical stereo system does not.

[roscoe65]

The Zilch crossover didn't work as well as Danny's for my Valencias.  Don't know about others.

A lot of people are using Joe Esmilla’s network.  I’m using a 9849 monitor circuit, adjusted for 16 ohms.  I’m also using 414s and 32A horns.  The 511 is a bear to tame and needs a lot of equalization.  The 32A can get by with a single cap if your midrange driver is behaved enough (like the 414).

One problem with [some] Altecs is that their intended use is incompatible with smaller listening spaces.  The 511/811 horn was intended to play through a movie screen.  The 32A is one of the few Altec horns designed for smaller spaces, like a control room or typical American living room.

[AvsFan]

If you go to a lot of shows you know a couple of things:  almost all venues are use sound systems that are heavily DSP’d and present in curved line arrays.  There are still some older venues (Irving Plaza, etc.) that still have their prehistoric systems, but for the most part sound is better than it ever was.  One thing you will not find is “soundstage” or “imaging”.  You’re just in the middle of a reverberant sound field with no real sonic localization cues.  It isn’t “they are here”, it is “you are there”.  You rely on visual cues to know where the music is coming from.  It is the same in a smaller venue.  A single jazz guitarist playing to a dinner crowd is still just “in the room”.  The sound just fills the space in a way a typical stereo system does not.

Yeah, I get all that. And I for sure don't want my home system to sound, in every way, like a live venue, there are certain aspects of a live show that I do want to try to recreate at home. Mainly the visceral punch and hard hitting mid bass of drums. And then as you mentioned, there are intimate settings as well. I want my system to do it all! Is that so much to ask? 

[rajacat]

If you go to a lot of shows you know a couple of things:  almost all venues are use sound systems that are heavily DSP’d and present in curved line arrays.  There are still some older venues (Irving Plaza, etc.) that still have their prehistoric systems, but for the most part sound is better than it ever was.  One thing you will not find is “soundstage” or “imaging”.  You’re just in the middle of a reverberant sound field with no real sonic localization cues.  It isn’t “they are here”, it is “you are there”.  You rely on visual cues to know where the music is coming from.  It is the same in a smaller venue.  A single jazz guitarist playing to a dinner crowd is still just “in the room”.  The sound just fills the space in a way a typical stereo system does not.

If it is just a reverberant sound field one desires, then why bother with stereo and not just go for  a really good mono system?

[roscoe65]

Yeah, I get all that. And I for sure don't want my home system to sound, in every way, like a live venue, there are certain aspects of a live show that I do want to try to recreate at home. Mainly the visceral punch and hard hitting mid bass of drums. And then as you mentioned, there are intimate settings as well. I want my system to do it all! Is that so much to ask? 

Agreed.  What I want from my system is a window into the performance.  Since I cannot see Gogol Bordello with my eyes, the spatial cues in the recording can allow me to sonically “see” them in my room in three dimensions.  That aids in the “suspension of disbelief”.  Another key is the visceral impact of the performance.  We tend to feel this strongly in our chest cavity, but also with our skin.  Having a lot of midbass energy is key.  I run dual Rhythmik F8 servo subwoofers that can run well into the midbass.  I can run them a bit higher than normal to beef up the midbass.  Even so, a 12” driver on the main speakers can move the air in the room much more effectively than smaller drivers.  A 12” driver moving at 100hz is moving a lot more air than a 5“ driver at the same frequency.  It will likely have lower excursion than the smaller driver for a given SPL, but the wavefront will originate from a diaphragm of about 113 sq in instead of 19 sq in in the smaller driver.  This broader, sonic “breeze” can be felt over a wider surface area and contributes to the whole body sensation of sound.

[Tyson]

Agreed.  What I want from my system is a window into the performance.  Since I cannot see Gogol Bordello with my eyes, the spatial cues in the recording can allow me to sonically “see” them in my room in three dimensions.  That aids in the “suspension of disbelief”.  Another key is the visceral impact of the performance.  We tend to feel this strongly in our chest cavity, but also with our skin.  Having a lot of midbass energy is key.  I run dual Rhythmik F8 servo subwoofers that can run well into the midbass.  I can run them a bit higher than normal to beef up the midbass.  Even so, a 12” driver on the main speakers can move the air in the room much more effectively than smaller drivers.  A 12” driver moving at 100hz is moving a lot more air than a 5“ driver at the same frequency.  It will likely have lower excursion than the smaller driver for a given SPL, but the wavefront will originate from a diaphragm of about 113 sq in instead of 19 sq in in the smaller driver.  This broader, sonic “breeze” can be felt over a wider surface area and contributes to the whole body sensation of sound.

Love the bass produced by large woofers.