Question about break in time for solid state power Amps

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FullRangeMan

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Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #20 on: 12 Jun 2020, 12:56 am »
Some people do not hear changes in the sound of the equip after the break-in period because they have little auditory perception, are the called hard ears people.

For many years I had the pleasure of living with a guitarist and a bass player, both virtuous in their instruments and with an hearing extremely above the average audiophile, I came to understand that they listened the musical notes at an amazing level above me, the hearing of the harmonics of my guitarist was impressive, both had absolute ears.

RPM123

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Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #21 on: 12 Jun 2020, 01:18 am »
I would do exactly the same if I were a manufacture of solid state amps, or any other piece of electronic equipment for that matter.  But it has nothing to do with the sound changing.  There is a certain amount of component failures in new electronic equipment.  It is referred to as infant mortality and here is a link to a description of it:

http://nomtbf.com/2013/06/finding-and-eliminating-early-life-failures-where-the-money-is/

If I were putting a piece of equipment into a trade show I would want to be sure that it was well past the point of probable failure.  It has nothing to do with sound quality, which does not change with burn-in.

Very interesting comment about "or any other piece of electronic equipment for that matter". 

I recently purchased a Sony OLED TV (fantastic picture BTW) and I inquired about having it calibrated. I was told that it needs at least 200 hours on it, before calibration Something about break-in or call it burn-in.  :scratch: (I was told the same thing about my previous plasma tv, a number of years ago.)  Why do you think I was told that? Do tell! Could it be that they want to make sure that the set is not defective, before calibration? (Two hundred seems rather excessive, if that's the case.) Apparently they didn't get the memo that electronic equipment does not break-in.

Oh, and for the first week or two, red colors seemed "hot", but have since toned down to a more realistic color/ brightness. I am absolutely certain now after having read your comments that electronic circuitry does not burn-in, that is was my and my wife's eyes that have adjusted to the intensity of the color.  :D

PS - as a public service, perhaps you should inform Martin Logan, Sound Lab, and other manufacturers of electrostatic speakers, that they need to revise their manuals which state that their speakers require break-in/burn-in.



klaus@odyssey

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #22 on: 12 Jun 2020, 01:55 am »
OK..2 posts,  comments on the savant later....first,  Double D:

OK,  break-in.  what is changing in the sound...why ///what curve ???

1.  as to why.  There is a myriad of EE's and other purely technical people with little or no listening experience or perception that insist, year after year that there's no change and that it can't be proven in a quantitative way beyond the process of warm-up / charging of the ps.  Well,  that's actually quite true,  but doesn't change the phenomenon of sonic changes.  There are also a multitude of theories behind the break-in...I kind of subscribe to the fact that the gazillions and gazillions of electrons essentially and eventually form a "river bed" after which the sound changes, smoothes out, or matures....This also changes the character of most parts themselves...think in terms of a fine, aging wine.   However,  there's really no technical evidence that this theory or any other one for that matter is based on,  just as "there's no change at all" is completely baseless....actually, less than that, because these are changes that you can actually hear, experience.  It's just the overall idea that makes the most sense to me albeit not very technical.

2.  What is the curve / timeline.   depends on the equipment...if you have a new piece of shit and expect it to change dramatically,  you'll be disappointed,  as even after the break-in,  it'll still be a POS that didn't change much or couldn't give you much difference because it's a POS to start out with.....in the high or higher end of things there are very dramatic changes though...in general terms, the higher the parts quality,  the more of a break-in curve you'll see....as I mentioned before,  in my experience with 1000's of gear, individual parts, etc.  the 100 - 200 hr curve is a very good one.   WHere it becomes weird, and for some people hard to believe is when it goes beyond that.  But again,  ask an estat owner what he discovered after 50, 100, 200, or 500 hours !!!!   Same with our amps:  the Kismets Extremes just need twice the time than a Khartago stereo.  Just listen.  really listen and you'll know.  Of course,  we're basing it on the premise that you don't have a POS.

As for "there are no differences" (and again,  mostly from purely technical people),  BULLSHIT.   Jut listen to the same components,  set up in the same way.  One brand new, the other having 100's of hours on them.....world of differences,  if they aren';t  POS's.

And then there are the different "waves" or points within the break-in time itself....I always tell customers that once the ps is charged,  you're looking at x amount of time of a Jeckyll and Hyde, all over the place, ridiculous behavior of the sound (such as bass, for example) coming in and out until it finally settles in....once it settles in,  the amps show their true signature and improve in the same mold for 20 - 30 more months,  easily.  However,  the first couple of months is the most important time as the further out you go,  the more baby steps this process becomes.



Who really knows why and how this all happens.   I really don't care either...it does what it does,  is very apparent, and I'm really honest about it.  Just like my diabolical plot of screwing over customers by designating capacitance as memory in a more layman term,  it's also a stroke of evil genius on my part to tell customers:  hey, congrats,  but you know what ???  You'll have to wait several months before it sounds best......

Yes, I am the original evil genius !!!!!



3.  Brings me to the last point,  what changes in sound.   Well...a lot.  Most of you will immediately point to the obvious:  firmer bass, more realistic and non-offending highs,  more realistic and three-dimensional sound stage.   This by itself is already a massive change in SQ, the sound itself, sonic, etc.....but all of this is audiophile speak and only tells half the story...it's all in the experience and goose bump experience.    There's so much more.  All micro areas,  /// dynamics, detail, etc.  are more pronounced through the break-in process,  resulting also in a more intimate musical experience....it also enables the body to be more "absorbent"  to the musical experience.   

All of this changes the sound itself....If one can't hear those differences then maybe one doesn't have a very good system,  or, more likely,  one isn't just a good listener....nothing wrong with that, as you don't have to have golden ears to enjoy music,  but one also shouldn't just crap all over things that one doesn't experience or understand because there's no technical guideline to follow blindly.


Then again,  who am I ???   This is just based on my own experience and ability..............
« Last Edit: 12 Jun 2020, 09:55 am by klaus@odyssey »

aaron.luebke

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #23 on: 12 Jun 2020, 01:59 am »
Keep open minds, absolutes are a myth, experiences are unique to the individual and no one has exactly the same ears.

It has been my experience that there is a breakin period.  The length of time and eventual conclusion varied.

The Odyssey equipment that I have owned, the amps in particular, had a breakin period in the 100’s of hours as described above. 


klaus@odyssey

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #24 on: 12 Jun 2020, 02:04 am »
On to DIYman....

So,  you essentially accuse me of willfully deceiving customers for financial reasons ????  Ripping people off ????

Man,  you have no idea as to what I'm doing for my customers and the industry for decades,  and also,  this is personally very insulting.



My response:  go fly a fucking kite and get lost.  You're not welcome in this circle anymore.....



 

diyman

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Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #25 on: 12 Jun 2020, 03:48 am »
1.  as to why.  There is a myriad of EE's and other purely technical people with little or no listening experience or perception that insist, year after year that there's no change and that it can't be proven in a quantitative way beyond the process of warm-up / charging of the ps.  Well,  that's actually quite true,  but doesn't change the phenomenon of sonic changes.  There are also a multitude of theories behind the break-in...I kind of subscribe to the fact that the gazillions and gazillions of electrons essentially and eventually form a "river bed" after which the sound changes, smoothes out, or matures....This also changes the character of most parts themselves...think in terms of a fine, aging wine.

I've never seen any evidence of this so called "river bed" phenomena or a respectable scientific study that supports it.  If you have such a paper, please provide a reference to it. I'd love to read it.

But in the meantime, please answer this question.  If in fact the physical characteristics of electronic components changes with use, why does it always change in the direction of improving the sound?  I can make just as logical case for these changes, if they occur, to have the opposite effect and impair the quality of the sound.

Interestingly, one of the posters here in this thread talks about the sound getting worse for awhile and then finally getting better.  Would love to hear the explanation for that one as well, particularly with regard to the 'river bed' theory.

ServerAdmin

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #26 on: 12 Jun 2020, 03:56 am »
I'll just lock this for now. Klaus can unlock it if he wishes / when he has time.

klaus@odyssey

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #27 on: 12 Jun 2020, 07:04 am »
Naaaah...locking a thread because of that guy ???  Wouldn't be fair to others.........
« Last Edit: 12 Jun 2020, 08:45 am by klaus@odyssey »

klaus@odyssey

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #28 on: 12 Jun 2020, 08:48 am »
Dude,  what part of "you're not welcome in this circle"  don't you understand ????

aaron.luebke

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #29 on: 12 Jun 2020, 11:36 am »
Dr. Savant’s troll like activity has not been limited to this forum.  It appears he’s inclined to leave small steamy piles of his opinions everywhere he goes.

I’d be willing to bet he’s never owned, nor heard, any Odyssey gear.  Thank goodness he has the power to know what Klaus’ gear sounds like using someone else’s ears.

Klaus - kudos on your response and willingness to leave the thread open.  It’s not entirely impossible diyman might provide entertainment for us with the small pearls of wisdom he’s so willing to share.

I buy Odyssey gear and it’s the cornerstone of my main system.  I’ve never doubted the integrity of Klaus.  He provides kick ass gear for excellent prices and has never steered me wrong.


Loki57

Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #30 on: 12 Jun 2020, 04:46 pm »
Klaus goes to his pocket and it's a straight red card.

JCarney

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Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #31 on: 12 Jun 2020, 07:05 pm »
This what I was going to post yesterday when I found the thread locked. Been with my Granddaughter all morning, so I see I can post it now.

To diyman:
Yo dude, why are you insulting me?? I was simply answering the op's question with experience with the brand. I made no mention of your post or you. Show a little tact.

JCarney

DoubleD

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Re: Question about break in time for solid state power Amps
« Reply #32 on: 13 Jun 2020, 06:16 pm »
Thank you FullRangeMan for your guidance, this is my first experience as a forum participant.  Also, thank you Phil A, JCarney, Didi-G, rollo and of course Klaus for sharing your knowledge and experience with me, I feel warmly welcomed.  I am in the process of completing a major remodel of my living room into a critical listening space and music studio. (practice, rehearsal, basic recording)  I look forward to getting your input on a range of related topics and am glad to know that asking questions that have been previously covered is okay.  I can also see the importance of practicing mutual respect and leaving one's ego at the door.  Thanks again!